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Debian Programming languages

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  Debian Programming languages Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-24 17:10 +0200
    Re: Debian Programming languages Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-24 17:30 +0200
    Re: Debian Programming languages ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-05-24 18:20 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2019-05-24 19:10 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-24 19:50 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages Christian Groessler <chris@groessler.org> - 2019-05-24 20:10 +0200
          Re: Debian Programming languages Alex Mestiashvili <amestia@rsh2.donotuse.de> - 2019-05-24 22:20 +0200
            Re: Debian Programming languages Christian Groessler <chris@groessler.org> - 2019-05-24 23:30 +0200
              Re: Debian Programming languages ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-05-25 00:10 +0200
              Re: Debian Programming languages Alex Mestiashvili <amestia@rsh2.donotuse.de> - 2019-05-25 07:10 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-05-24 19:30 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-05-24 20:00 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-24 20:00 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2019-05-24 19:50 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2019-05-24 20:10 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-05-24 20:10 +0200
          Re: Debian Programming languages "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2019-05-24 20:30 +0200
            Re: Debian Programming languages Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-05-24 21:50 +0200
              Re: Debian Programming languages "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2019-05-24 23:20 +0200
              Re: Debian Programming languages <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-25 08:10 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2019-05-24 23:40 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-24 19:50 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2019-05-24 20:00 +0200
          Re: Debian Programming languages songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-05-25 22:20 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages ghe <ghe@slsware.net> - 2019-05-24 20:00 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2019-05-24 20:00 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-05-25 02:50 +0200
    Re: Debian Programming languages Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-05-24 22:00 +0200
    Re: Debian Programming languages Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-05-25 03:40 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-05-26 04:00 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2019-05-26 15:30 +0200
    Re: Debian Programming languages Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-25 17:30 +0200
      Re: Debian Programming languages Ryan Dean <adm.mail.list@googlemail.com> - 2019-05-25 18:50 +0200
        Re: Debian Programming languages <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-25 21:20 +0200
    Re: Debian Programming languages 황병희 <soyeomul@red-october.yw.doraji.xyz> - 2019-05-26 03:30 +0200

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#209072 — Debian Programming languages

Hi

As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
languages are mostly used?  I am asking as it helps to give people an
idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.

I am guessing as the default command line interface is bash, then bash
and bash scripting would be useful to learn but on top of that what
would people suggest I try and promote.

Not just on the coding side of things as we have markdown / html / css
perhaps LaTeX for documentation.


Thanks

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#209073

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Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-05-24 17:08:44)
> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian, what programming 
> languages are mostly used?  I am asking as it helps to give people an 
> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
> 
> I am guessing as the default command line interface is bash, then bash 
> and bash scripting would be useful to learn but on top of that what 
> would people suggest I try and promote.
> 
> Not just on the coding side of things as we have markdown / html / css 
> perhaps LaTeX for documentation.

Debian excells in not being a monoculture.  Therefore I think it is 
doing Debian a disservice to try emphasize which has "majority" use.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#209075

On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:

> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
> languages are mostly used?  

C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)

> I am asking as it helps to give people an
> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.

The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.

I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
stuff.

Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.

Bash reminds one of the syntax of the 1950s. The pits, but necessary.
And it's often the best way to make something happen right now.

Python rules, this week (it's written in C too).

They all do things differently. Knowing several of them (and investing
in a pile of O'Reilly books) is a big help.

-- 
Glenn English

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#209077

On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
>
>> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
>> languages are mostly used?
>
> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
>
>> I am asking as it helps to give people an
>> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
>
> The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
> C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
> they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.
>
> I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
> stuff.
>
> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.
>
> Bash reminds one of the syntax of the 1950s. The pits, but necessary.
> And it's often the best way to make something happen right now.
>

'/bin/sh' on Debian is Dash.

So I would say, general shell scripting ability and POSIX compliance
(Dash/Posh).

Avoiding Bashism if Bash is to be used.

--
John Doe

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#209080

On 24/05/2019 17:51, john doe wrote:
> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
>>
>>> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
>>> languages are mostly used?
>> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
>> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
>>
>>> I am asking as it helps to give people an
>>> idea of what they need to learn or will learn as part of helping.
>> The *nix kernels, and most of the command programs, are written in C, so
>> C's a must. Java and python look like a kinda fixed up, OOP C, so
>> they're not too hard to deal with once you know C.
>>
>> I don't know what ruby is like, but I see a lot of it in the mirrors and
>> stuff.
>>
>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.
>>
>> Bash reminds one of the syntax of the 1950s. The pits, but necessary.
>> And it's often the best way to make something happen right now.
>>
> '/bin/sh' on Debian is Dash.
>
> So I would say, general shell scripting ability and POSIX compliance
> (Dash/Posh).
>
> Avoiding Bashism if Bash is to be used.
>
> --
> John Doe
>

Thank you for this, very helpful and useful information, I (well others
too) hopefully have something to go on when trying to tell people about
contributing to Debian. 

Granted not everyone (including me) is at developer level or may want to
get that far.

Question now is how to turn all this in to something that will hopefully
attract people to help with Debian or other free software projects that
are related.

Thanks again


Paul


Paul


-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#209088

On 5/24/19 6:51 PM, john doe wrote:
> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace it.


I'm typically referring to perl as a "write-only" language. :-)

But don't get me wrong, I like it...

regards,
chris

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#209097

On 5/24/19 7:28 PM, Christian Groessler wrote:
> On 5/24/19 6:51 PM, john doe wrote:
>> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace
>>> it.
> 
> 
> I'm typically referring to perl as a "write-only" language. :-)
> 
> But don't get me wrong, I like it...
> 
> regards,
> chris
> 

That is not true. The freedom to write unreadable code doesn't mean that
the language is bad.

Just as an example, look on Perl Dancer[0] framework. It's so damn easy
and clear, one can start using it just after going through the tutorial.

Best,
Alex

[0] https://metacpan.org/pod/Dancer2::Tutorial

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#209100

On 5/24/19 10:03 PM, Alex Mestiashvili wrote:
> On 5/24/19 7:28 PM, Christian Groessler wrote:
>> On 5/24/19 6:51 PM, john doe wrote:
>>> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>>>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>>>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>>>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace
>>>> it.
>>
>> I'm typically referring to perl as a "write-only" language. :-)
>>
>> But don't get me wrong, I like it...
>>
>> regards,
>> chris
>>
> That is not true. The freedom to write unreadable code doesn't mean that
> the language is bad.


I guess you didn't notice the smiley in my message...

I'm sometimes having hmm.. let's say "problems" ... understanding what I 
had written ~10yrs ago. Typically regexp-related. That's not a problem 
of the language, but a problem in my understanding as I don't use perl 
on a day-to-day basis.

I stated "I like it", and that's true. I dislike python on the other hand...

regards,
chris

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#209103

On 5/24/19 3:19 PM, Christian Groessler wrote:

> I dislike python on the other hand...

I did too, when I looked at it a few years ago. But Python3 looks
reasonably civilized.

And so the interpreter replaces 4 spaces with a semicolon. I think I can
live with that...

-- 
Glenn English

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#209108

On 5/24/19 11:19 PM, Christian Groessler wrote:
> On 5/24/19 10:03 PM, Alex Mestiashvili wrote:
>> On 5/24/19 7:28 PM, Christian Groessler wrote:
>>> On 5/24/19 6:51 PM, john doe wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2019 6:14 PM, ghe wrote:
>>>>> Perl is happily off on it's own. "There's more than one way..." Boy is
>>>>> there ever. Nice to write, but it's next to impossible to understand
>>>>> other people's code. Python, IMHO, seems to be creeping up to replace
>>>>> it.
>>>
>>> I'm typically referring to perl as a "write-only" language. :-)
>>>
>>> But don't get me wrong, I like it...
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> chris
>>>
>> That is not true. The freedom to write unreadable code doesn't mean that
>> the language is bad.
> 
> 
> I guess you didn't notice the smiley in my message...
> 
> I'm sometimes having hmm.. let's say "problems" ... understanding what I
> had written ~10yrs ago. Typically regexp-related. That's not a problem
> of the language, but a problem in my understanding as I don't use perl
> on a day-to-day basis.
> 
> I stated "I like it", and that's true. I dislike python on the other
> hand...
> 
> regards,
> chris
> 

I did notice the smiley. But the jokes that perl is unreadable, looks
like line noise, write only, and so on, are repeated way too often and
decline Perl's reputation.

Well, the problem you described, isn't the problem of the language :)
Perl is easy to use and write condensed code, so many people abuse it
and write messy code.
Regexps can be also written in pretty clean multiline format with
comments should one want it.

So I basically came here to say that Perl is cool! :)

Best regards,
Alex

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#209078

On 2019-05-24 17:14, ghe wrote:
> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
> 
>> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
>> languages are mostly used?
> 
> C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)

> Perl is happily off on it's own.

What goes on with Perl ?
There is Perl6 but development is stalled ?

mick


-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#209085

On 5/24/19 11:21 AM, mick crane wrote:


>> On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:

> What goes on with Perl ?

Can you say "Python"?

Perl was great a while back, but it leaves something to be desired today.

-- 
Glenn English

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#209086

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Quoting mick crane (2019-05-24 19:21:33)
> On 2019-05-24 17:14, ghe wrote:
> > On 5/24/19 9:08 AM, Paul Sutton wrote:
> > 
> >> As I am trying to promote contributing to Debian,  what programming
> >> languages are mostly used?
> > 
> > C, perl, java, ruby, python, bash, that I know of. And probably several
> > others. I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)
> 
> > Perl is happily off on it's own.
> 
> What goes on with Perl ?
> There is Perl6 but development is stalled ?

Perl is alive and well.

Perl6 (a different thing derived from perl) is progressing, not stalled.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#209079

Hi,

ghe wrote:
> I don't recall seeing any COBOL, though :-)

1,122 lines of code in Buster.
See
  https://sources.debian.org/stats/#sloc_current


(Astounding how few languages are mentioned there.
 No Piet ? http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html
)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#209087

On 5/24/19, 11:00 AM, ghe wrote:
> I forgot about LISP too. LISP was the first high level language I
> learned. Thought I was going to die...

(CLUTTER CLUTTER (CDR CLUTTER)) is probably the only s-expression I 
still remember from over half a lifetime ago. (It's a line of code from 
the "Blocks World" exercise in my old (LISP) textbook).

--
JHHL

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#209089

On 5/24/19 11:45 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> 1,122 lines of code in Buster.

Oh. So that's what's wrong with Buster :-)

> (Astounding how few languages are mentioned there.
>  No Piet ? http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html

I forgot about LISP too. LISP was the first high level language I
learned. Thought I was going to die...

-- 
Glenn English

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#209090

Hi,

Glenn English wrote:
> LISP was the first high level language I
> learned. Thought I was going to die...

Yeah. Why ain't there no Debian package with Guile ?
  https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/

  https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=guile
yields (after choosing a package)

  https://sources.debian.org/src/supertux/0.6.0-1/tools/levelconverter-0.1.3_0.2.0.scm/?hl=1#L1
  #!/usr/bin/guile -s

Probably Guile and Scheme are counted as Lisp.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#209094

On Fri, 24 May 2019 20:28:04 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Glenn English wrote:
> > LISP was the first high level language I
> > learned. Thought I was going to die...  
> 
> Yeah. Why ain't there no Debian package with Guile ?
>   https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
> 
>
geda-gschem and related electronics tools rely on Guile. I have Guile
libraries 1.8, 2.0 and 2.2 installed, and they increase in size from
2.6MB to 11.8MB to 45MB. So something must still be going on...

-- 
Joe

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#209098

Hi,

Joe wrote:
> geda-gschem and related electronics tools rely on Guile. I have Guile
> libraries 1.8, 2.0 and 2.2 installed, and they increase in size from
> 2.6MB to 11.8MB to 45MB. So something must still be going on...

It is still the official glue language of GNU. (To my luck its use does
not get enforced in any way.)
There is Guix, a distro and/or package manager which makes heavy use of
Guile.

But as said, the Debian source line counter probably adds it to the Lisp
basket.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#209109

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On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 08:47:26PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2019 20:28:04 +0200
> "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Glenn English wrote:
> > > LISP was the first high level language I
> > > learned. Thought I was going to die...  
> > 
> > Yeah. Why ain't there no Debian package with Guile ?
> >   https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
> > 
> >
> geda-gschem and related electronics tools rely on Guile. I have Guile
> libraries 1.8, 2.0 and 2.2 installed, and they increase in size from
> 2.6MB to 11.8MB to 45MB. So something must still be going on...

Guile [1] has been seeing a renaissance for a couple of years now. The
last release (2.9.2 beta [2], leading to 3.0) is just two days old, and
is adding native compilation for architectures beyond X86_64.

A very interesting (and currently quite active) project written in Guile
is GNU Guix [3], a different kind of package manager (inspired by NixOS).

So Guile is alive and kicking :-)

Cheers

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
[2] https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/news/gnu-guile-292-beta-released.html
[3] https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/

-- tomás

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