Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #208814 > unrolled thread

No Books in print on Systemd?

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  No Books in print on Systemd? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-05-18 23:40 +0200
    Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2019-05-19 01:20 +0200
      Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-05-19 03:00 +0200
        Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-05-19 05:30 +0200
          Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Oliver Schode <oliver.schode@online.de> - 2019-05-19 09:30 +0200
            Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-05-21 20:10 +0200
    Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-19 09:30 +0200
    Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Boyan Penkov <boyan.penkov@gmail.com> - 2019-05-19 15:10 +0200
      Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-05-21 21:20 +0200
        Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2019-05-24 00:30 +0200
      Re: No Books in print on Systemd? mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-05-22 22:20 +0200
        Re: No Books in print on Systemd? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-05-22 22:50 +0200

#208814 — No Books in print on Systemd?

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  for
example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to (Horrors!)  become
an expert.

And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the Debian
Wiki.  (I'm also reading https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
 ).

My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" is
best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.

If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you know if
someone's working on a Book?

Thank you.

Kenneth Parker

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#208815

On 5/18/19, Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  for
> example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to (Horrors!)  become
> an expert.
>
> And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the Debian
> Wiki.  (I'm also reading https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
>  ).
>
> My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" is
> best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.
>
> If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you know if
> someone's working on a Book?


Hi.. I took a super quick poke at it. Mostly landed a bunch of
references to something called "Savaged by Systemd".. =)

Did also see the following two:

* How Linux Works, 2nd Edition (Paperback); Brian Ward; 2015..
Incidentally references systemd as one of the many topics covered.

* Fedora Linux Servers with systemd: second edition; Petersen,
Richard; 2016. Systemd is in the title.......

Otherwise, I wonder if the seeming shortage of tangible books is about
how volatile this topic is..

Or if it's maybe because it's an evolving, moving target
development-wise (just like all its counterparts)? Maybe it's hard to
document on paper because that [media] becomes outdated, thus
basically fire starter material, almost as fast as it's printed when
it comes to tech subjects?

Personally, I've bought several older tech books purely for
occasionally waxing nostalgic. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with birdseed *

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208823

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

IIRC the 2nd edition of Armstrong's Kernel Internals book has a chapter on
it. But don't remember for sure.

On Sat, May 18, 2019, 6:12 PM Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 5/18/19, Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  for
> > example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to (Horrors!)
> become
> > an expert.
> >
> > And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the Debian
> > Wiki.  (I'm also reading
> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
> >  ).
> >
> > My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" is
> > best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.
> >
> > If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you know
> if
> > someone's working on a Book?
>
>
> Hi.. I took a super quick poke at it. Mostly landed a bunch of
> references to something called "Savaged by Systemd".. =)
>
> Did also see the following two:
>
> * How Linux Works, 2nd Edition (Paperback); Brian Ward; 2015..
> Incidentally references systemd as one of the many topics covered.
>
> * Fedora Linux Servers with systemd: second edition; Petersen,
> Richard; 2016. Systemd is in the title.......
>
> Otherwise, I wonder if the seeming shortage of tangible books is about
> how volatile this topic is..
>
> Or if it's maybe because it's an evolving, moving target
> development-wise (just like all its counterparts)? Maybe it's hard to
> document on paper because that [media] becomes outdated, thus
> basically fire starter material, almost as fast as it's printed when
> it comes to tech subjects?
>
> Personally, I've bought several older tech books purely for
> occasionally waxing nostalgic. :)
>
> Cindy :)
> --
> Cindy-Sue Causey
> Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
>
> * runs with birdseed *
>
>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208825

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 8:54 PM Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com>
wrote:

> IIRC the 2nd edition of Armstrong's Kernel Internals book has a chapter on
> it. But don't remember for sure.
>

That one, I will check out for sure!  (The last Kernel book I owned was
about Version 2).  Thanks!

On Sat, May 18, 2019, 6:12 PM Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/19, Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  for
>> > example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to (Horrors!)
>> become
>> > an expert.
>> >
>> > And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the Debian
>> > Wiki.  (I'm also reading
>> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
>> >  ).
>> >
>> > My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" is
>> > best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.
>> >
>> > If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you
>> know if
>> > someone's working on a Book?
>>
>>
>> Hi.. I took a super quick poke at it. Mostly landed a bunch of
>> references to something called "Savaged by Systemd".. =)
>>
>
I suspect that details about systemctl parameters might  *not*  be in this
book.  :-)

Did also see the following two:
>>
>> * How Linux Works, 2nd Edition (Paperback); Brian Ward; 2015..
>> Incidentally references systemd as one of the many topics covered.
>>
>
I'll  look, but this will, likely not have the detail I need.

* Fedora Linux Servers with systemd: second edition; Petersen,
>> Richard; 2016. Systemd is in the title.......
>>
>
This might be a possibility.  I'm sure, even Fedora's use of Systemd isn't
*that*  different from Debian's.

Otherwise, I wonder if the seeming shortage of tangible books is about
>> how volatile this topic is..
>>
>
Could be.  I was even looking for things, like "Systemd for Dummies"!  (Any
ideas, anyone, on who might author  *that*  Book?  LOL!)

Or if it's maybe because it's an evolving, moving target
>> development-wise (just like all its counterparts)? Maybe it's hard to
>> document on paper because that [media] becomes outdated, thus
>> basically fire starter material, almost as fast as it's printed when
>> it comes to tech subjects?
>>
>
That too.

Personally, I've bought several older tech books purely for
>> occasionally waxing nostalgic. :)
>>
>
Me too, in the past (when I had  "Disposal Income").   Thanks!

Cindy :)
>> --
>> Cindy-Sue Causey
>> Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
>>
>> * runs with birdseed *
>>
>
Kenneth Parker

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208837

On Sat, 18 May 2019 23:11:42 -0400
Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Did also see the following two:
> >>
> >> * How Linux Works, 2nd Edition (Paperback); Brian Ward; 2015..
> >> Incidentally references systemd as one of the many topics covered.
> >>
> >
> I'll  look, but this will, likely not have the detail I need.

Nope, probably not. I read it a couple of years ago and Brian's book
is huge, better still for a beginner I'd think. But if you're looking
for something that roughly makes up for systemd's man pages, on paper,
than this isn't it. I've been looking for one myself, no luck so far.
About the best I might mention at this point is "Linux in Action" by
David Clinton, Manning 2018, quite new. Be informed though it's more of
your typical sysadmin guide: very broad in subject, goes into archiving,
backups, hardening, webserver, devops, everything. Considering that,
it's not particularly large, hence once again often lacking the depth.
And then it doesn't have _a_ specific systemd part, or chapter; rather
it's kind of smeared all over the place, perhaps as you might expect,
a bit like systemd on Linux. ;)

I'm afraid, eventually there's (as yet) no replacement for the online
manuals, and as drab as man pages can be, or whether you like systemd
or not, I'd say the docs are quite decent. Not least considering its
age. Almost overdone. If all free software was like that, we wouldn't
need to kill too many trees.

Apart from that, and ongoing development, another hurdle could be that
systemd is just too Linux specific, really. While even there clearly
centered on the Desktop and enterprise environment. So while a book on
the kernel is just about as relevant if you're doing Android, or Linux
embedded, systemd isn't. Not to mention there haven't been a lot of
titles on init scripting either.

Best wishes,
Oliver

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208961

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 3:24 AM Oliver Schode <oliver.schode@online.de>
wrote:

> On Sat, 18 May 2019 23:11:42 -0400
> Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Did also see the following two:
> > >>
> > >> * How Linux Works, 2nd Edition (Paperback); Brian Ward; 2015..
> > >> Incidentally references systemd as one of the many topics covered.
> > >>
> > >
> > I'll  look, but this will, likely not have the detail I need.
>
> Nope, probably not. I read it a couple of years ago and Brian's book
> is huge, better still for a beginner I'd think. But if you're looking
> for something that roughly makes up for systemd's man pages, on paper,
> than this isn't it. I've been looking for one myself, no luck so far.
> About the best I might mention at this point is "Linux in Action" by
> David Clinton, Manning 2018, quite new. Be informed though it's more of
> your typical sysadmin guide: very broad in subject, goes into archiving,
> backups, hardening, webserver, devops, everything. Considering that,
> it's not particularly large, hence once again often lacking the depth.
> And then it doesn't have _a_ specific systemd part, or chapter; rather
> it's kind of smeared all over the place, perhaps as you might expect,
> a bit like systemd on Linux. ;)
>

Thanks.  The other Plus, about "Linux in Action", is that it's recent.

>
> I'm afraid, eventually there's (as yet) no replacement for the online
> manuals, and as drab as man pages can be, or whether you like systemd
> or not, I'd say the docs are quite decent. Not least considering its
> age. Almost overdone. If all free software was like that, we wouldn't
> need to kill too many trees.
>

I've been going over those Man Pages now (especially Systemctl and
systemd.*), and it's easy to get lost!

>
> Apart from that, and ongoing development, another hurdle could be that
> systemd is just too Linux specific, really.


One objection I'd like to add to the list is, "Systemd is not suited for
old, low-powered Hardware".  And one of my "Pet Projects", is using Linux
(and preferably Debian and/or Devuan) to rehabilitate old Hardware.

Here's a Bone for those reading this, who are "Anti SystemD":

https://ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2019/05/20/linux-distros-without-systemd/

What inspired me to bring this up on  *this*  List, is their First Entry:
Duvuan!  (I plan to get personally involved in the Devuan Project, mainly
to keep support for older Hardware, such as early i386 Processors, and
other Platforms, such as Power PC Chips [I own a G4 iMac "Desk Lamp", with
a bad hard drive, but otherwise good]).

And, by the way, I am, likely one of, only a few, who considers himself
"Neutral" on SystemD.  In fact, one of my "many Mottoes" is, "Neutrality
With Attitude"!  :-)

While even there clearly
> centered on the Desktop and enterprise environment. So while a book on
> the kernel is just about as relevant if you're doing Android, or Linux
> embedded, systemd isn't. Not to mention there haven't been a lot of
> titles on init scripting either.
>

Good Point.  I *definitely* plan to purchase the Kernel book, recommended
on an early part of this Thread.  And I'm getting it for *much* *more*,
than Systemd!  (Another thing I want to Master, is building my own,
personal Kernel, with Custom Options [not to mention small, because it
would have, only the Drivers and/only Modules, actually needed for my
Hardware]).

Best wishes,
> Oliver
>

Kenneth Parker
http://eyeblinkuniverse.com (Follow this, and its accompanying BLOG, to
find out more about me).
Note that I consider the Eye Blink Universe to be an Open Source Universe.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208836

On 18/05/2019 22:19, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  for
> example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to (Horrors!)  become
> an expert.
> 
> And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the Debian
> Wiki.  (I'm also reading https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/
>  ).
> 
> My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" is
> best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.
> 
> If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you know if
> someone's working on a Book?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Kenneth Parker
> 

Sorry, sending again as the first time was a direct reply to Kenneth.

Would books on LPI Certification be useful here.

LPI Linux Certification in a Nutshell (In a Nutshell (O'Reilly))
by Amazon.co.uk
Learn more:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0596804873/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_17p4CbSTAFNGC


Paul
-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208860

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

--
Boyan Penkov
www.boyanpenkov.com

> On May 18, 2019, at 17:19, Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  for example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to (Horrors!)  become an expert.
> 
> And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the Debian Wiki.  (I'm also reading https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ <https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/> ).
> 
> My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" is best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.

+1 for the implicit sentiment that it may be time for a book-length elucidation of the system, as I was looking around the the same thing — even if it’s http://0pointer.net/blog/ posts cleaned up and laid out in a systematic (not temporally linear..) way, I’ be interested….

> 
> If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you know if someone's working on a Book?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Kenneth Parker

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208968

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 8:09 AM Boyan Penkov <boyan.penkov@gmail.com> wrote:

> --
> Boyan Penkov
> www.boyanpenkov.com
>
> +1 for the implicit sentiment that it may be time for a book-length
> elucidation of the system, as I was looking around the the same thing —
> even if it’s http://0pointer.net/blog/ posts cleaned up and laid out in a
> systematic (not temporally linear..)
>

That webpage is unfortunately the best doc I have found on SystemD. Its not
unfortunate because it's bad doc, it's good but some is a little out of
date. It's that there is nothing better from the makers of SystemD. In the
ideal world only "us" system administrators would care about SystemD and it
wouldn't be an issue for others. But SystemD is highly pervasive while
being difficult to administer. Last I saw, the Amazon AWS linux images had
removed it, using SysV-style init like the old days.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#209056

Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> writes:
>
> That webpage is unfortunately the best doc I have found on
> SystemD. Its not unfortunate because it's bad doc, it's good but some
> is a little out of date. It's that there is nothing better from the
> makers of SystemD. In the ideal world only "us" system administrators
> would care about SystemD and it wouldn't be an issue for others. But
> SystemD is highly pervasive while being difficult to administer. Last
> I saw, the Amazon AWS linux images had removed it, using SysV-style
> init like the old days.
>
man systemd, follow the links in the SEE ALSO section. Really, is that
so hard?

I can manage to teach this to complete newbies. An experienced sysadmin
should have no excuse to complain about a shortage of documentation.

(Although like OP I would *love* to have a dead tree version; but then
again I *like* books)

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#209025

On 2019-05-19 13:51, Boyan Penkov wrote:
> --
> Boyan Penkov
> www.boyanpenkov.com
> 
>> On May 18, 2019, at 17:19, Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I know there are controversies on Systemd (including in Debian  --  
>> for example, Devuan), but I want to learn enough about it to 
>> (Horrors!)  become an expert.
>> 
>> And yes, I have found several online resources, including on the 
>> Debian Wiki.  (I'm also reading 
>> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ 
>> <https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/> ).
>> 
>> My problem?  My best times for reading are times where a "Paper Book" 
>> is best.  Unfortunately, I haven't found any.
> 
> +1 for the implicit sentiment that it may be time for a book-length
> elucidation of the system, as I was looking around the the same thing
> ??? even if it???s http://0pointer.net/blog/ posts cleaned up and laid out
> in a systematic (not temporally linear..) way, I??? be interested???.
> 
>> 
>> If I'm missing something, please tell me.  Otherwise, do any of you 
>> know if someone's working on a Book?
>> 
> 

I did buy the "windows 98 administrator's guide" to try to get to grips 
with it but left me more annoyed.
"I just want to know what is happening, it is my PC"
So it was a relief to find Linux books and an OS that does what it says 
it should do.
Now I dunno what goes on.
But really I guess now I don't care so much as I feel the guys are 
giving me this software are trustworthy
It would be nice to have it laid out in print exactly what goes on.

mick

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#209026

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:18 PM mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> "I just want to know what is happening, it is my PC"
> So it was a relief to find Linux books and an OS that does what it says
> it should do.
> Now I dunno what goes on.
> But really I guess now I don't care so much as I feel the guys are
> giving me this software are trustworthy
>

I guess I will be the one to speak the open-source boilerplate :-)
Open source is a cooperative activity. Thousands of linux machines run
systemD all the
time and need no extra work on that account. Mine are different. If I need
good, basic
systemD doc, I can help write it.

Now there is an unfinished, long-running discussion within the linux
community about the
design choices made with systemD and the means by which it became part of
the linux mainstream.
And as I mentioned some distros and admins have rejected it. I try to keep
the two topics separate.



> mick
>
> --
> Key ID    4BFEBB31
>
>

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web