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Salsa vs Github

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  Salsa vs Github Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-16 18:00 +0200
    Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-16 18:40 +0200
      please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> - 2019-05-17 09:10 +0200
        Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-17 09:40 +0200
          Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-17 10:40 +0200
            Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-17 11:00 +0200
          Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> - 2019-05-17 10:40 +0200
            Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2019-05-18 05:50 +0200
              Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-05-18 09:40 +0200
              Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> - 2019-05-18 09:40 +0200
                Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-18 10:30 +0200
                  Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa  vs Github Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-05-18 13:00 +0200
                    Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-18 15:20 +0200
                      Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa  vs Github Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-05-18 15:40 +0200
                        Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-18 15:50 +0200
                    Off topic: non zero error codes Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-19 07:30 +0200
                      Re: Off topic: non zero error codes Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2019-05-19 14:00 +0200
                      Re: Off topic: non zero error codes <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-19 14:10 +0200
                  Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-05-18 16:40 +0200
                Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2019-05-19 03:10 +0200
          Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-17 18:00 +0200
            Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa  vs Github arne <sp113438@telfort.nl> - 2019-05-18 01:40 +0200
          Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-05-17 18:00 +0200
            Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-17 18:30 +0200
            Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2019-05-18 10:50 +0200
              Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-18 11:00 +0200
                Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-18 11:30 +0200
          Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Aidan Gauland <aidalgol@fastmail.net> - 2019-05-18 00:30 +0200
            Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-18 01:10 +0200
              Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Aidan Gauland <aidalgol@fastmail.net> - 2019-05-18 07:40 +0200
                Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-05-18 08:10 +0200
                  Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> - 2019-05-18 10:40 +0200
                  Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa  vs Github Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-05-18 10:40 +0200
          Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs  Github Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2019-05-18 11:20 +0200
    Re: Salsa vs Github Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-05-17 11:30 +0200
      Re: Salsa vs Github Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-05-17 11:50 +0200
        Re: Salsa vs Github john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2019-05-17 12:00 +0200
          Re: Salsa vs Github Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> - 2019-05-17 14:20 +0200

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#208695 — Salsa vs Github

Hi

I am creating levels for the Rocks and Diamonds game (
https://www.artsoft.org/ ) these are being uploaded to my project
repository on salsa

https://salsa.debian.org/zleap-guest/rocksndiamondslevels

I am in the process of updating the README.md files so, hopefully others
can also be part of this project.

Questions:

is it possible to
1. Fork a project between github -> salsa or between salsa -> github ?

2 As above but issue pull / merge requests between the two?

I am asking this, as if someone has github, and can do the above they
are able to perhaps help, without having to sign up to an account on salsa.

Thanks for any help

Paul Sutton

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#208696

Hi,

>I am creating levels for the Rocks and Diamonds game (
>https://www.artsoft.org/ ) these are being uploaded to my project
>repository on salsa
>
>https://salsa.debian.org/zleap-guest/rocksndiamondslevels
>
>I am in the process of updating the README.md files so, hopefully
>others
>can also be part of this project.
>
>Questions:
>
>is it possible to
>1. Fork a project between github -> salsa or between salsa -> github ?
>
>2 As above but issue pull / merge requests between the two?

first off, please do *never* use GitHub for free software.

Especially not in a project that might be used by one of the groups GitHub discriminates against (potential contributors under 16 years of age in that case).

That said:

Forking on either platform is nothing more than git clone; git remote add origin; git push. So yes, you can fork any repository to anywhere else.

If you want GitHub users to also be able to use the issue tracker, etc., EduGit.org might be an option for a game as well.

-nik

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#208708 — please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

On 5/16/19 11:34 AM, Dominik George wrote:
> please do*never*  use GitHub for free software

Please explain, in detail, why.

Mark

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#208712 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

>> please do*never*  use GitHub for free software
>
>Please explain, in detail, why.

If discrimination against parts of the community is not enough for you, here's why:

https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html

https://www.adamhyde.net/another-good-reason-not-to-use-github/

https://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20170301-tg.htm

-nik

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#208714 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 09:28:51AM +0200, Dominik George wrote:
> >> please do*never*  use GitHub for free software

[links]

Thanks for the links. Up to now, I avoided Github mainly because
I'm always wary of those "open core", which pay lip service to
"Open Source" (and make heavy use of free software) while taking
advantage of the network effect to keep users captive.

After Microsoft's "kiss of death" they're doubly-suspect to me.

But it's always good to have some links by smarter people than
me...

Cheers
-- t

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#208717 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

On 17/05/2019 09:39, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 09:28:51AM +0200, Dominik George wrote:
>>>> please do*never*  use GitHub for free software
> 
> [links]
> 
> Thanks for the links. Up to now, I avoided Github mainly because
> I'm always wary of those "open core", which pay lip service to
> "Open Source" (and make heavy use of free software) while taking
> advantage of the network effect to keep users captive.
> 
> After Microsoft's "kiss of death" they're doubly-suspect to me.
> 
> But it's always good to have some links by smarter people than
> me...
> 
> Cheers
> -- t
> 


I agree that if we stick to either using salsa for Debian projects it
makes it easier to collaborate, keeps everything together and Debian ,
as hosts, keeps interests at heart, accountability is then to the
community.  Similarly if we self host a repository structure then we are
in control,

As the underpinning idea allows us to collaborate cross platforms then
we have the choice.

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#208715 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

On 5/17/19 2:28 AM, Dominik George wrote:
>>> please do*never*  use GitHub for free software
>>
>> Please explain, in detail, why.
> 
> If discrimination against parts of the community is not enough for you, here's why:
> 
> https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html
> 
> https://www.adamhyde.net/another-good-reason-not-to-use-github/
> 
> https://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20170301-tg.htm
> 
> -nik
> 

I'm not convinced,  Give me more.

Mark

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#208765 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> writes:

> On 5/17/19 2:28 AM, Dominik George wrote:
> >> Please explain, in detail, why.
> > https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html
> > https://www.adamhyde.net/another-good-reason-not-to-use-github/
> > https://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20170301-tg.htm
>
> I'm not convinced,  Give me more.

If the above articles don't convince you, what would convince you that
has not already been said?

I'm sure you can appreciate that some people have unreasonable demands
for being convinced, and no amount of persuasion is enough. Can you give
an example of what reasonable presentation would be needed to convince
you on this matter?

-- 
 \        “Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas |
  `\     are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.” |
_o__)                                                    —Howard Aiken |
Ben Finney

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#208772 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

	Hi.

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 01:53:30AM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> On 5/17/19 10:43 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> writes:
> > 
> > > On 5/17/19 2:28 AM, Dominik George wrote:
> > > > > Please explain, in detail, why.
> > > > https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html
> > > > https://www.adamhyde.net/another-good-reason-not-to-use-github/
> > > > https://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20170301-tg.htm
> > > 
> > > I'm not convinced,  Give me more.
> > 
> > If the above articles don't convince you, what would convince you that
> > has not already been said?
> > 
> > I'm sure you can appreciate that some people have unreasonable demands
> > for being convinced, and no amount of persuasion is enough. Can you give
> > an example of what reasonable presentation would be needed to convince
> > you on this matter?
> > 
> 
> Well, for a start, a lot of it seemed to be simple anti-Microsoft propaganda.

What's wrong with a anti-M$ propaganda?

Reco

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#208773 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

On 5/17/19 10:43 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> writes:
> 
>> On 5/17/19 2:28 AM, Dominik George wrote:
>>>> Please explain, in detail, why.
>>> https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html
>>> https://www.adamhyde.net/another-good-reason-not-to-use-github/
>>> https://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20170301-tg.htm
>>
>> I'm not convinced,  Give me more.
> 
> If the above articles don't convince you, what would convince you that
> has not already been said?
> 
> I'm sure you can appreciate that some people have unreasonable demands
> for being convinced, and no amount of persuasion is enough. Can you give
> an example of what reasonable presentation would be needed to convince
> you on this matter?
> 

Well, for a start, a lot of it seemed to be simple anti-Microsoft 
propaganda.  But The onus is not on me to provide reasons.  I simply 
asked for more info.

Mark

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#208776 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

No. I, for one, do not care much who owns GitHub.

Most of what's wrong there can be explained by stupidity or lack of care rather than being evil.

And most companies seem to make one common mistake when it comes to diversity: They mistake diversity for caring for certain groups of people, often women, trans people, or the disabled. They don't get that choosing a set of people to include, instead of removing *all* barriers, is discrimination rather than inclusion. 

-nik

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#208785 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

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On Sat, 18 May 2019 10:27:43 +0200
Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> wrote:

Hello Dominik,

>trans people, or the disabled. They don't get that choosing a set of
>people to include, instead of removing *all* barriers, is
>discrimination rather than inclusion. 

The problem is that, in some countries, to combat discrimination,
organisations are *required* to discriminate.  Catch-22.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limousine anyway
(White Man) In Hammersmith Palais - The Clash

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#208790 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

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On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 11:52:50AM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sat, 18 May 2019 10:27:43 +0200
> Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello Dominik,
> 
> >trans people, or the disabled. They don't get that choosing a set of
> >people to include, instead of removing *all* barriers, is
> >discrimination rather than inclusion. 
> 
> The problem is that, in some countries, to combat discrimination,
> organisations are *required* to discriminate.  Catch-22.

Fascinating.

I'm not sure I should interpret that as trolling, misunderstanding
about what inclusive policies mean or what.

But it seems definitely off-topic...

Cheers
-- t

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#208791 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

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On Sat, 18 May 2019 15:19:35 +0200
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

Hello tomas@tuxteam.de,

>I'm not sure I should interpret that as trolling, misunderstanding
>about what inclusive policies mean or what.

More like reductio ad absurdum.  The point is, legislation cannot do
away with discrimination.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Every single one of us
Devil Inside - INXS

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#208793 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

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On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 02:37:09PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sat, 18 May 2019 15:19:35 +0200
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> Hello tomas@tuxteam.de,
> 
> >I'm not sure I should interpret that as trolling, misunderstanding
> >about what inclusive policies mean or what.
> 
> More like reductio ad absurdum.  The point is, legislation cannot do
> away with discrimination.

Legislation alone won't do it. Without (appropriate) legislation it'll
be more difficult.

What "appropriate" means is left as an exercise to the reader.

Now I'm outta this thread. Interesting topic, but offtopic.

Cheers
-- t

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#208829 — Off topic: non zero error codes

Good morning,

I have wanted to ask for a long time about something I made up from 
hearsay whether it is remotely true. I hope that's OK.

Is there is a shell/language where the returncode for TRUE is zero and 
that that is the opposite of how all other shells/languages are made?

The argument for creating it was that it then becomes handier to say "no 
errors, one error, two errors..." than to say "success, one error, two 
errors...".

I mean: (0, 1, 2, ...) is handier than (1, 0, whatever, ...).

Best regards.

//Erik

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#208847 — Re: Off topic: non zero error codes

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Erik Josefsson writes:

> Good morning,
>
> I have wanted to ask for a long time about something I made up from hearsay
> whether it is remotely true. I hope that's OK.
>
> Is there is a shell/language where the returncode for TRUE is zero and that
> that is the opposite of how all other shells/languages are made?

Yes, there is. It is called POSIX shell. Other shells have adpoted the
concept as well, e.g. Bash.

Try:

	$ true
	$ echo $?
	0

	$ false
	$ echo $?
	1

> The argument for creating it was that it then becomes handier to say "no
> errors, one error, two errors..." than to say "success, one error, two
> errors...".

I think it stems from two different traditions:

 * One is to use ``error codes'' to show that something went wrong and 0 if
   everything is OK.

 * The other is to have a function report ``true'' (commonly 1) on success and
   ``false'' (commonly 0) on error.

One can see both traditions used in different styles of C-programs -- some
more advanced programming languages provide the concept of  Exceptions to
avoid these situations, although it is not always consistent even in
comparably new programming languages like Java.

For program execution from the shell, the ``error codes''-idea is applied
and as `true` and `false` are just programs which can be run from the POSIX
shell, the counter-intuitive use of `true` ~ 0 and `false` ~ 1 can be
explained.

HTH
LInux-Fan

[...]

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#208851 — Re: Off topic: non zero error codes

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On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 05:21:38AM +0000, Erik Josefsson wrote:
> Good morning,
> 
> I have wanted to ask for a long time about something I made up from
> hearsay whether it is remotely true. I hope that's OK.
> 
> Is there is a shell/language where the returncode for TRUE is zero
> and that that is the opposite of how all other shells/languages are
> made?
> 
> The argument for creating it was that it then becomes handier to say
> "no errors, one error, two errors..." than to say "success, one
> error, two errors...".
> 
> I mean: (0, 1, 2, ...) is handier than (1, 0, whatever, ...).

Yes... and no.

What you are referring to is the UNIX convention, that programs
deliver an integer code at exit, which is typically interpreted
as "error code" -- thus zero => no error. This is a convention,
though, so programs don't have to stick to that.

The more official name is "exit code", and each civilised manual
page will have a section on these.

See f.ex. man curl(1) for one very extensive specimen.

So it won't come as a surprise that the shell, which was born to
invoke programs (and to react to their diverse (mis-)adventures)
interprets an exit code of zero as "OK", "all went well" and
so on -- while interpreting everything else as "uh-oh, perhaps
tell the user that something went wrong".

This convention mirrors the one found in the "classical" C
programming style.

Cheers
-- tomás 

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#208796 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

On Saturday 18 May 2019 04:27:43 am Dominik George wrote:

> No. I, for one, do not care much who owns GitHub.
>
> Most of what's wrong there can be explained by stupidity or lack of
> care rather than being evil.
>
> And most companies seem to make one common mistake when it comes to
> diversity: They mistake diversity for caring for certain groups of
> people, often women, trans people, or the disabled. They don't get
> that choosing a set of people to include, instead of removing *all*
> barriers, is discrimination rather than inclusion.
>
> -nik

Very well said nik.  That point should be made often and loud,

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#208824 — Re: please do *never* use GitHub for free software, was Re: Salsa vs Github

Mark Allums <mark@allums.email> writes:

> The onus is not on me to provide reasons. I simply asked for more
> info.

You initially asked for reasons; reasons were given. You haven't
responded to those, from what I can see, and AFAICT they answer the
initial reuest adequately.

As best I can tell, a reasonable person would either be satisfied with
what was presented, or have specific responses to rebut them.

You can ask for more information; but if you have no specific response
to the information already provided that shows why it's not sufficient
to convince you, I don't see that anyone has an onus to provide more.

-- 
 \       “Try to learn something about everything and everything about |
  `\                                  something.” —Thomas Henry Huxley |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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