Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #207947 > unrolled thread

Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode?

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? bw <bwtnguy@yahoo.com> - 2019-04-28 22:10 +0200
    Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Björn Persson <Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> - 2019-04-29 00:00 +0200
      Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-04-29 00:50 +0200
      Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Michael Lange <klappnase@freenet.de> - 2019-04-29 00:50 +0200
        Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Björn Persson <Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> - 2019-05-02 15:10 +0200
      Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-29 08:00 +0200
        Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-04-29 08:30 +0200
          Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-29 08:50 +0200
        Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Björn Persson <Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> - 2019-05-02 15:10 +0200
          Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-02 17:20 +0200
            Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Björn Persson <Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> - 2019-05-05 18:10 +0200
              Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-05-05 18:20 +0200
                Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Björn Persson <Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> - 2019-05-06 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2019-05-07 16:40 +0200
              Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-05 18:50 +0200

#207947 — Re: Is Debian 9 supposed to work on a Geode?

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

In-Reply-To: <20190428205034.610a701d@tag.xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>

><Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se>
>I followed these instructions:
>
>https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/i386/release-notes/ch-upgrading.html
>
>Bj?rn Persson


p.s. In the past I always tested a live system before upgrading, or 
installing a new release, even though it is not suggested in the release 
notes about upgrading.  IMHO, it is a good idea to always use a live 
system for awhile and read some manpages on the machine.  There's really 
no practical way to cover every situation in the documentation.

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#207952

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

bw wrote:
> p.s. In the past I always tested a live system before upgrading, or 
> installing a new release, even though it is not suggested in the release 
> notes about upgrading.  IMHO, it is a good idea to always use a live 
> system for awhile and read some manpages on the machine.  There's really 
> no practical way to cover every situation in the documentation.

This is a small headless box. It has no CD drive or anything like that.
There is one USB port, but finding out how to boot it from USB would be
a major research project, if it's even possible. The BIOS is a rather
minimal thing that can only be accessed over a DE-9 serial port.

I was also running short on time. I got a message from Let's Encrypt
that they were withdrawing the validation method I was using, forcing
me to upgrade Certbot, and a sufficiently recent Certbot wasn't
available for Debian 8. Other urgent problems had been taking up most
of my time, and my certificates were about to expire.

Therefore I decided that the quickest solution was to copy the entire
SSD to a new one, installing the new SSD, and doing the upgrade to find
out whether it would work. It did work well enough that I got the
certificates renewed, so the immediate crisis is successfully averted.
Now I have a slightly less urgent crisis instead.

I can still roll back by putting the old SSD back and copying over the
certificates and other data, but then I'll have to install and maintain
an unpackaged Certbot, if possible, or find another ACME client that
works, and I'll still have to move away from Debian 8 within 14 months.

So if this processor is actually not supported anymore (contrary to the
information that Jonas Smedegaard linked to), then it looks like I
should get started on replacing the hardware, rather than putting a lot
of work into temporary solutions. It's sad to have to throw away
working hardware, but that's the way it is in the whole industry.
Debian is at least better than many others in that regard.

Björn Persson

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#207953

Björn Persson wrote:

> So if this processor is actually not supported anymore (contrary to the
> information that Jonas Smedegaard linked to), then it looks like I
> should get started on replacing the hardware, rather than putting a lot
> of work into temporary solutions. It's sad to have to throw away
> working hardware, but that's the way it is in the whole industry.
> Debian is at least better than many others in that regard.

It is not supported by Debian, but you can build the kernel easily, because
it is supported by the kernel. Advantage is you customize to your hardware
(just know what drivers you need for what hardware/chipset)


1. debootstrap a 386 debian
2. chroot and update/install whatever you need
3. download unzip kernel code
4. configure
make ARCH=i386 menuconfig

5. build
make -j4 ARCH=i386 deb-pkg

voila, you have your debian packages dpkg -i ...

the easiest way to test for me was boot via tftp, if your one supports PXE

PS: systemd was overkill and it never worked here, using init

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#207954

Hi,

On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 23:58:15 +0200
Björn Persson <Bjorn@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se> wrote:

> So if this processor is actually not supported anymore (contrary to the
> information that Jonas Smedegaard linked to), then it looks like I
> should get started on replacing the hardware, rather than putting a lot
> of work into temporary solutions. It's sad to have to throw away
> working hardware, but that's the way it is in the whole industry.
> Debian is at least better than many others in that regard.

maybe you can try to use kernel packages from Antix, they seem to be
debian compatible and still have 486 versions 
(see: https://mirror.23media.com/mx-packages/antix/stretch/pool/main/l/)

Regards

Michael



.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

I thought my people would grow tired of killing.  But you were right,
they see it is easier than trading.  And it has its pleasures.  I feel
it myself.  Like the hunt, but with richer rewards.
		-- Apella, "A Private Little War", stardate 4211.8

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208034

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Michael Lange wrote:
> maybe you can try to use kernel packages from Antix, they seem to be
> debian compatible and still have 486 versions 
> (see: https://mirror.23media.com/mx-packages/antix/stretch/pool/main/l/)

Hmm, possibly an option to consider. At a glance I don't see a way to
combine repositories to get only the kernel from Antix.

Björn Persson

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#207963

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Quoting Björn Persson (2019-04-28 23:58:15)
> So if this processor is actually not supported anymore (contrary to 
> the information that Jonas Smedegaard linked to), then it looks like I 
> should get started on replacing the hardware, rather than putting a 
> lot of work into temporary solutions. It's sad to have to throw away 
> working hardware, but that's the way it is in the whole industry. 
> Debian is at least better than many others in that regard.

Yes, if you want to continue use Debian then should indeed look for 
replacement: Geode CPUs is clearly on its way out (if it hasn't happened 
already - posibly by accident).

As others write, you obviously have the alternative of deviating from 
Debian - either by using packages provided by others or local 
recompilations of your own.  Beware that it quite likely involves not 
only kernel but also other packages.

Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, nowadays is 
covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful: 
https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#207964

Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> Yes, if you want to continue use Debian then should indeed look for
> replacement: Geode CPUs is clearly on its way out (if it hasn't happened
> already - posibly by accident).
> 

I would say here unfortunately.

> As others write, you obviously have the alternative of deviating from
> Debian - either by using packages provided by others or local
> recompilations of your own.  Beware that it quite likely involves not
> only kernel but also other packages.
> 

Kernel is a must for sure, but packages ... it depends on how they utilize
i686 features. For my usecase I relay on kernel features (iptables, aes,
tun) and all of them are provided. The OPs case might be different though

> Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, nowadays is
> covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful:
> https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware

The advantage of Geode is that it is 386 - it is easy to
compile/develop/maintain. And thank you for the link BTW - I wish I have
seen this 15y ago :)

regards

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#207965

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Quoting deloptes (2019-04-29 08:24:33)
> Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, nowadays 
> > is covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful: 
> > https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware
[...]
> And thank you for the link BTW - I wish I have seen this 15y ago :)

I sure would have, if only I had known you back then and that list had 
existed - but we started it only 8 years ago (with the FreedomBox 
project): https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware?action=info

:-)

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208035

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, nowadays is 
> covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful: 
> https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware

Something ARM-based might well be a candidate, yes. Thanks for the
list, but its requirements are partially different from mine. For
example a microSD slot isn't a hard requirement for me.

Björn Persson

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208046

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Quoting Björn Persson (2019-05-02 15:07:00)
> Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, nowadays 
> > is covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful: 
> > https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware
> 
> Something ARM-based might well be a candidate, yes. Thanks for the 
> list, but its requirements are partially different from mine. For 
> example a microSD slot isn't a hard requirement for me.

Not sure why you emphasize MicroSD - it just happens to be the storage 
type most common among cheap ARM boards.  I have no particular love 
relationship with MicroSD cards, just want my machines to _boot_ :-)

After quite some years running fanless Mini-ITX boards, I have since 
2010 exploring the cheaper end of ARM boards.

If you care to elaborate what are your priorities, then I am curious to 
try compare that to (my knowledge of) cheap ARM devices.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208216

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Björn Persson (2019-05-02 15:07:00)
> > Jonas Smedegaard wrote:  
> > > Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, nowadays 
> > > is covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful: 
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware  
> > 
> > Something ARM-based might well be a candidate, yes. Thanks for the 
> > list, but its requirements are partially different from mine. For 
> > example a microSD slot isn't a hard requirement for me.  
> 
> Not sure why you emphasize MicroSD - it just happens to be the storage 
> type most common among cheap ARM boards.

Maybe it's only because I'm not familiar with the ARM world. I think of
memory cards as a removable medium that's used for copying files between
devices – especially from a camera to a computer. I tend to assume that
permanently mounted storage devices use SATA (unless requirements are
so high that NVME or SAS is used). If there are quality microSD cards
nowadays that are performant and reliable enough to replace a disk or
SSD, then I suppose I could use that.

When I see "uSD slot, easy accessible" in a bulleted list of what looks
like requirements, then I get the impression that any device that lacks
a microSD slot, or where it's not easy to access, would be excluded. I
wouldn't reject an otherwise promising computer just because it has a
SATA disk instead of a microSD card, and I don't mind using a
screwdriver if I need to replace a hard disk. That's all I meant.

Björn Persson

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208218

> When I see "uSD slot, easy accessible" in a bulleted list of what looks
> like requirements, then I get the impression that any device that lacks
> a microSD slot, or where it's not easy to access, would be excluded. I
> wouldn't reject an otherwise promising computer just because it has a
> SATA disk instead of a microSD card, and I don't mind using a
> screwdriver if I need to replace a hard disk. That's all I meant.

Most of those ARM SBCs come with a µSD slot plus other things.
Even if you connect a SATA disk, you'll often need a µSD because some
of those SBCs don't have any on-board flash memory, so you need the µSD
to hold the U-Boot (which plays the role of the BIOS) without which the
board doesn't even know how to read from the SATA disk.

IOW it's not "SATA or µSD?" but rather "does it support SATA
(additionally to µSD)?"


        Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208306

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Most of those ARM SBCs come with a µSD slot plus other things.
> Even if you connect a SATA disk, you'll often need a µSD because some
> of those SBCs don't have any on-board flash memory, so you need the µSD
> to hold the U-Boot (which plays the role of the BIOS) without which the
> board doesn't even know how to read from the SATA disk.

I see. Being able to replace the memory that holds the bootloader makes
perfect sense. That's even a feature I would pay extra for.

Björn Persson

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208357

>> Most of those ARM SBCs come with a µSD slot plus other things.
>> Even if you connect a SATA disk, you'll often need a µSD because some
>> of those SBCs don't have any on-board flash memory, so you need the µSD
>> to hold the U-Boot (which plays the role of the BIOS) without which the
>> board doesn't even know how to read from the SATA disk.
> I see. Being able to replace the memory that holds the bootloader makes
> perfect sense. That's even a feature I would pay extra for.

Yup: µSD cards tend to suck when compared to SATA devices, but when you
compare them to on-board flash holding BIOS and other such read-only
firmware, they rock!


        Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#208222

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Quoting Björn Persson (2019-05-05 18:05:59)
> Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Björn Persson (2019-05-02 15:07:00)
> > > Jonas Smedegaard wrote:  
> > > > Most but not all areas that Geode CPUs previously covered, 
> > > > nowadays is covered by ARM SoCs.  You may find this useful: 
> > > > https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware
> > > 
> > > Something ARM-based might well be a candidate, yes. Thanks for the 
> > > list, but its requirements are partially different from mine. For 
> > > example a microSD slot isn't a hard requirement for me.
> > 
> > Not sure why you emphasize MicroSD - it just happens to be the 
> > storage type most common among cheap ARM boards.
> 
> Maybe it's only because I'm not familiar with the ARM world. I think 
> of memory cards as a removable medium that's used for copying files 
> between devices – especially from a camera to a computer. I tend to 
> assume that permanently mounted storage devices use SATA (unless 
> requirements are so high that NVME or SAS is used). If there are 
> quality microSD cards nowadays that are performant and reliable enough 
> to replace a disk or SSD, then I suppose I could use that.
> 
> When I see "uSD slot, easy accessible" in a bulleted list of what 
> looks like requirements, then I get the impression that any device 
> that lacks a microSD slot, or where it's not easy to access, would be 
> excluded. I wouldn't reject an otherwise promising computer just 
> because it has a SATA disk instead of a microSD card, and I don't mind 
> using a screwdriver if I need to replace a hard disk. That's all I 
> meant.

Makes good sense.  Thanks for elaborating.

The referenced wiki page targets devices usable for non-technical users 
- it was established for the FreedomBox project at first, but have seen 
more broad use since then.

That item about easy accessible MicroSD card specifically is because a) 
cheap ARM SBCs (single board computers) typically require MicroSD for 
_booting_ even when equipped with SATA and USB port (for comparison with 
IBM-compatible computers think "which device can BIOS be loaded from"), 
and b) an early reference device for the FreedomBox project - GuruPlug - 
had its MicroSD card behind a seal, so even if users are able to operate 
a screwdriver if flashing went wrong then resetting involved "breaking 
the seal".


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web