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dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?)

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  dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?) Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-04 16:40 +0200
    Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?) Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-05-04 18:30 +0200
      Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-04 19:10 +0200
        Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-04 21:50 +0200
          Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 04:30 +0200
            Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 12:10 +0200
              Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-05 12:50 +0200
                Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 13:20 +0200
        Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 03:50 +0200
          Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-05 09:30 +0200
            Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-22 06:10 +0200
              Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-22 14:50 +0200
                Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-22 15:20 +0200
                  Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-22 17:10 +0200
                Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-22 19:50 +0200
      Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-04 20:20 +0200
        Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-04 21:20 +0200
          Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-05 16:30 +0200
            Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-05 17:00 +0200
            Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 21:00 +0200
              Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-06 22:50 +0200
                Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 15:50 +0200
                  Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 18:30 +0200
                    Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-11 01:00 +0200
                      Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-11 01:30 +0200
                        Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|") Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-11 10:20 +0200
      Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?) Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 03:00 +0200
        Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?) Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2019-05-05 04:40 +0200
          Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|" and "¦"?) Erik Josefsson <erik.hjalmar.josefsson@gmail.com> - 2019-05-05 05:10 +0200

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#208324 — Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|")

On Sun 05 May 2019 at 20:52:40 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> Den 2019-05-05 kl. 16:26, skrev David Wright:
> > Is this some sort of ticking off for wondering why the OP is*so*
> > keen to be able to type ¦ directly on the keyboard that they are
> > almost willing to use a USB keyboard with a laptop to get it?
> > Particularly as the wiki page referred to above has a reference to
> > http://jkorpela.fi/latin1/3.html#A6
> > which states "It is advisable to avoid using this character, since its
> > code position is occupied by another character in ISO Latin 9 (alias
> > ISO 8859-15), which will probably widely replace ISO Latin 1 at least
> > in European usage."
> > 
> > Now, using Unicode might avoid this danger, but it's still odd to
> > want this character so much when it appears to be as much of a relic
> > as the aforementioned ECU is. And, after all, the answer is that
> > they didn't.
> 
> For what it's worth, I had the foggy idea that I had to figure out how
> to make the Teres keyboard reproduce the output from the Scandinavian
> USB keyboard. What else would be "right"?

[Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the Teres keyboard beyond looking at
https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/SPARE-PARTS/TERES-006-Keyboard/
(assuming this is it), and I've no idea of what keys your USB keyboard
has, nor knowledge of Swedish keyboard conventions.]

> When the 105 and 102 options then gave the same result, it got
> completely lost.
> 
> And I'm still kind of lost since I don't really understand what a
> "Keyboard model" is. So already at the first menu choice of
> dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration I don't really know what I'm
> doing there.
> 
> In the dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration menu there are [193
> different keyboard models] to choose from.
> 
> But two of them are the same, at least from the point of view of a
> Teres laptop.
> 
> How does that work?

I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
keys they have.

What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
\| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
£, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.

The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
(i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
European) ones usually do.

You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
have any particular significance significance: the key produces
pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).

I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
when you type this key with just shift pressed?

Cheers,
David.

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#208514 — Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|")

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hi David!

Thanks for helping me sort out my thoughts!

Den 2019-05-06 kl. 22:42, skrev David Wright:
> On Sun 05 May 2019 at 20:52:40 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
>> Den 2019-05-05 kl. 16:26, skrev David Wright:
>>> Is this some sort of ticking off for wondering why the OP is*so*
>>> keen to be able to type ¦ directly on the keyboard that they are
>>> almost willing to use a USB keyboard with a laptop to get it?
>>> Particularly as the wiki page referred to above has a reference to
>>> http://jkorpela.fi/latin1/3.html#A6
>>> which states "It is advisable to avoid using this character, since its
>>> code position is occupied by another character in ISO Latin 9 (alias
>>> ISO 8859-15), which will probably widely replace ISO Latin 1 at least
>>> in European usage."
>>>
>>> Now, using Unicode might avoid this danger, but it's still odd to
>>> want this character so much when it appears to be as much of a relic
>>> as the aforementioned ECU is. And, after all, the answer is that
>>> they didn't.
>> For what it's worth, I had the foggy idea that I had to figure out how
>> to make the Teres keyboard reproduce the output from the Scandinavian
>> USB keyboard. What else would be "right"?
> [Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the Teres keyboard beyond looking at
> https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/SPARE-PARTS/TERES-006-Keyboard/
> (assuming this is it), and I've no idea of what keys your USB keyboard
> has, nor knowledge of Swedish keyboard conventions.]

Yes, that's the Teres keyboard.

The wikipedia picture ofISO/IEC 9995-3:2002 applied to the US keyboard 
layout has 3 keys to the left and 4 keys to the right of the spacebar. 
Teres has 4 keys to the left and 3 keys to the right, otherwise they 
look the same (also the print on the keys):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#/media/File:KB_US-ISO9995-3.svg

This similarity makes me wonder why I cannot find any information from 
Olimex (or elsewhere) whether the Teres keyboard is fully compliant with 
the ISO standard that seems to be the one at hand (and which also seems 
current):

https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html

If it was compliant, then I guess that would make an informed choice of 
"Keyboard model" easier than it is now.

I also guess that compliance would not only mean that the number of 
keys, their relative positions and the print on the keycaps would be 
defined, but also, and more importantly, that the digital output would 
follow certain rules.

And there's my major hick-up: 7 keys would be plenty if the output would 
suffice to consist of about 100 different signals since 2^7=128 (to 
later map on characters, numbers and whatnot). 8 keys would be 
excessive. I do understand the historical reasons for 105 keys (or 80), 
but how they relate to what really matters (the digital output) is a 
mystery.


It cannot really be physicality of the "Keyboard models", nor the 
(brand) names of the them, but rather the digital output that is 
defining whether one "Keyboard model" is different from the other. Or am 
I completely wrong here?

If I am not wrong, the next question is if there are really 193 
different keyboard models in that sense?

I mean, with the same keyboard layout (e.g. Finnish), how many of the 
193 would give the exact same result on screen with one particular 
keyboard (e.g. the Teres laptop)?

I guess more than two (which I now know is the case).


>> When the 105 and 102 options then gave the same result, it got
>> completely lost.
>>
>> And I'm still kind of lost since I don't really understand what a
>> "Keyboard model" is. So already at the first menu choice of
>> dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration I don't really know what I'm
>> doing there.
>>
>> In the dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration menu there are [193
>> different keyboard models] to choose from.
>>
>> But two of them are the same, at least from the point of view of a
>> Teres laptop.
>>
>> How does that work?
> I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
> differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
> simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
> keys they have.


As far as I can see, the "source code" to Teres' keyboard does not say 
anything about that, but the Schematics file lists 25 different keys 
(KBD_X0 to KBD_X16 and KBD_Y0 to KBD_Y7), and there is a micro 
controller ATMEGA16U4-AU.

https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD/Rev.A/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD_Rev.A.sch

I'm fine with thinking that KBD_X0, KBD_X1 etc on the "inside" are 
connected to the 40 physical keys on the "outside". Actually with 23 
electronic keys to combine, it would be enough with an unique output per 
electronic key plus <Shift>, <AltGr> and <Shift>+<AltGr> to get 92 
different combinations. That should be enough, no?


> What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
> puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
> \| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
> £, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.
>
> The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
> (i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
> thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
> US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
> European) ones usually do.
>
> You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
> in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
> traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
> have any particular significance significance: the key produces
> pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).
>
> I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
> the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
> place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
> glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
> when you type this key with just shift pressed?


The "missing left-of-z key" on my "scandinavian" USB-keyboard gives "<" 
with no key pressed, ">" with <Shift>, "|" with <AltGr> and "¦" with 
<AltGr>+<Shift>.

It is a 5 dollar cheapest possible off the shelf keyboard . It says made 
in China and comes with spelling errors on the box. So it's probably not 
even made in China.

But I have finally found that 102 and Finnish gives me the pipe with 
<i>+<AltGr>+<Shift>. So all is fine, except for that I don't understand why.

I would have left it at that if it wasn't for my plan to introduce the 
Teres laptop as a DIY project in school. And I would be very unhappy 
with my answers to why I should choose 102 and Finnish if I was a 
student of mine.


Btw, I have found a recent bug report against the package 
keyboard-configuration complaining about translation errors wrt 
"Keyboard model" names, so I guess I could file a wish-list bug too:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=924657


Thanks for your time David.

Best regards.

//Erik

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#208539 — Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|")

On Fri 10 May 2019 at 15:45:34 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:
> Thanks for helping me sort out my thoughts!

OK, but I don't claim any expertise here.

> Den 2019-05-06 kl. 22:42, skrev David Wright:
> > [Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the Teres keyboard beyond looking at
> > https://www.olimex.com/Products/DIY-Laptop/SPARE-PARTS/TERES-006-Keyboard/
> > (assuming this is it), and I've no idea of what keys your USB keyboard
> > has, nor knowledge of Swedish keyboard conventions.]
> 
> Yes, that's the Teres keyboard.
> 
> The wikipedia picture ofISO/IEC 9995-3:2002 applied to the US keyboard
> layout has 3 keys to the left and 4 keys to the right of the spacebar.
> Teres has 4 keys to the left and 3 keys to the right, otherwise they
> look the same (also the print on the keys):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#/media/File:KB_US-ISO9995-3.svg

No surprises there, then. I've never seen R-Win on any keyboards that
aren't full size, nor a laptop without a Fn key, usually on the left.

> This similarity makes me wonder why I cannot find any information from
> Olimex (or elsewhere) whether the Teres keyboard is fully compliant
> with the ISO standard that seems to be the one at hand (and which also
> seems current):
> 
> https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html
> 
> If it was compliant, then I guess that would make an informed choice
> of "Keyboard model" easier than it is now.
> 
> I also guess that compliance would not only mean that the number of
> keys, their relative positions and the print on the keycaps would be
> defined, but also, and more importantly, that the digital output would
> follow certain rules.

The only rule I know is that claiming compliance with standards can
cost serious money.

> And there's my major hick-up: 7 keys would be plenty if the output
> would suffice to consist of about 100 different signals since 2^7=128
> (to later map on characters, numbers and whatnot). 8 keys would be
> excessive. I do understand the historical reasons for 105 keys (or
> 80), but how they relate to what really matters (the digital output)
> is a mystery.

I don't think that these shifty keys are treated in such a logical
manner. I've always assumed that there's a keyboard controller chip
that's stamping "personality" on the keys, particularly Fn.

> It cannot really be physicality of the "Keyboard models", nor the
> (brand) names of the them, but rather the digital output that is
> defining whether one "Keyboard model" is different from the other. Or
> am I completely wrong here?
> 
> If I am not wrong, the next question is if there are really 193
> different keyboard models in that sense?
> 
> I mean, with the same keyboard layout (e.g. Finnish), how many of the
> 193 would give the exact same result on screen with one particular
> keyboard (e.g. the Teres laptop)?
> 
> I guess more than two (which I now know is the case).

My own take: to be on that list, someone maintaining X has to obtain a
model of that keyboard to map out all the keys. By the time that's
been done, time has past and you likely will find that that model is
history as far as shopping is concerned. Unlike with kernel
development, there's not the pressure to keep up with new models as
they come out. Pruning the list of its older models is not a
priority either.

> > I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
> > differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
> > simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
> > keys they have.
> 
> As far as I can see, the "source code" to Teres' keyboard does not say
> anything about that, but the Schematics file lists 25 different keys
> (KBD_X0 to KBD_X16 and KBD_Y0 to KBD_Y7), and there is a micro
> controller ATMEGA16U4-AU.
> 
> https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD/Rev.A/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD_Rev.A.sch
> 
> I'm fine with thinking that KBD_X0, KBD_X1 etc on the "inside" are
> connected to the 40 physical keys on the "outside". Actually with 23
> electronic keys to combine, it would be enough with an unique output
> per electronic key plus <Shift>, <AltGr> and <Shift>+<AltGr> to get 92
> different combinations. That should be enough, no?

Enough for what? I'm not sure what you mean. But as far as your use of
the keyboard is concerned, the keypresses have been through the
microprocessor, the kernel, and perhaps the xorg driver, so you're
not going to see any one-to-one mapping.

> > What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
> > puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
> > \| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
> > £, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.
> > 
> > The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
> > (i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
> > thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
> > US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
> > European) ones usually do.
> > 
> > You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
> > in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
> > traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
> > have any particular significance significance: the key produces
> > pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).
> > 
> > I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
> > the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
> > place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
> > glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
> > when you type this key with just shift pressed?
> 
> The "missing left-of-z key" on my "scandinavian" USB-keyboard gives
> "<" with no key pressed, ">" with <Shift>, "|" with <AltGr> and "¦"
> with <AltGr>+<Shift>.

That suggests that the layout is more like a US than a British keyboard.

> It is a 5 dollar cheapest possible off the shelf keyboard . It says
> made in China and comes with spelling errors on the box. So it's
> probably not even made in China.
> 
> But I have finally found that 102 and Finnish gives me the pipe with
> <i>+<AltGr>+<Shift>. So all is fine, except for that I don't
> understand why.

What, the USB keyboard? Is that because you have some Scandinavian
characters to the right of p? (A US keyboard would be expected to have
three punctuation characters there: []\ shifting to {}|.)

> I would have left it at that if it wasn't for my plan to introduce the
> Teres laptop as a DIY project in school. And I would be very unhappy
> with my answers to why I should choose 102 and Finnish if I was a
> student of mine.

Teaching moments?
. How many keyboard and laptop models have been released in, say, the
  last two decades?
. Are review models of them all loaned to kernel and X developers in
  a timely fashion?
. Are there people employed to keep up with specifying keyboard
  models, and who pays them?

Answers to questions like that might alleviate their dismay.

That's before you get into what DIY is all about. DIY can mean just
carrying out final assembly of a set of components that's been
tailored for just that process. OTOH it can mean reengineering items
for uses they weren't designed for. And anything in between.

We're used to this with software: no one has the programs, scripts
etc that I have on this computer. None of my computers was designed
to run linux. None of my laptops has every Fn key (the coloured ones)
operable as per the engraving on it (the so-called hot keys). They
were designed for Windows and, as far as current versions are
concerned, the models are long obsolete.

> Btw, I have found a recent bug report against the package
> keyboard-configuration complaining about translation errors wrt
> "Keyboard model" names, so I guess I could file a wish-list bug too:
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=924657

Sure, just don't hold your breath. It might be more profitable to
investigate how to redefine keys (VC and in X) to your liking.
Especially useful for alphabets having more than 26 letters.

For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to
do things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing
Alt-space from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy
to catch the Alt by mistake). Little things like that.
And in fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots,
capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with
xrandr, etc.

Cheers,
David.

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#208550 — Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|")

Den 2019-05-10 kl. 18:21, skrev David Wright:
> On Fri 10 May 2019 at 15:45:34 (+0200), Erik Josefsson wrote:

>> https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html
>>
>> If it was compliant, then I guess that would make an informed choice
>> of "Keyboard model" easier than it is now.
>>
>>

> The only rule I know is that claiming compliance with standards can
> cost serious money.


Thanks for that insight and explanation!


>> And there's my major hick-up: 7 keys would be plenty if the output
>> would suffice to consist of about 100 different signals since 2^7=128
>> (to later map on characters, numbers and whatnot). 8 keys would be
>> excessive. I do understand the historical reasons for 105 keys (or
>> 80), but how they relate to what really matters (the digital output)
>> is a mystery.
> I don't think that these shifty keys are treated in such a logical
> manner. I've always assumed that there's a keyboard controller chip
> that's stamping "personality" on the keys, particularly Fn.


Indeed there is a keyboard controller chip that "takes care of all 
keyboard matrix scanning, key de-bouncing and communications with the 
computer, and has an internal buffer if the keystroke data cannot be 
sent immediately. The PC motherboard decodes the data received from the 
keyboard via the PS/2 port using interrupt IRQ1".

More from same source: "If, for example, you press 'shift' and 'A' then 
both keys will generate their own scan codes, the 'A' scan code value is 
not changed if a shift or control key is also pressed. Pressing the 
letter 'A' generates 'lC'h make code and when released the break code is 
'F0'h, 'lC'h.
Pressing 'shift' and 'A' keys will generate the following scan codes:
The make code for the 'shift' key is sent '12'h.
The make code for the 'A' key is sent 'lC'h.
The break code for the 'A' key is sent 'F0'h, 'lC'h.
The break code for the 'shift' key is sent 'F0'h,' 12'h.
If the right shift was pressed then the make code is '59'h and break 
code is 'F0'h, '59'h.
By analysing these scan codes the PC software can determine which key 
was pressed. By looking at the shift keystroke the software can 
distinguish between upper and lower case."

source: 
https://www.isy.liu.se/edu/kurs/TSTE12/laboration/TSTE12_Lab1_170824.pdf

Thanks for the hints leading me to that page.


>> It cannot really be physicality of the "Keyboard models", nor the
>> (brand) names of the them, but rather the digital output that is
>> defining whether one "Keyboard model" is different from the other. Or
>> am I completely wrong here?
>>
>> If I am not wrong, the next question is if there are really 193
>> different keyboard models in that sense?
>>
>> I mean, with the same keyboard layout (e.g. Finnish), how many of the
>> 193 would give the exact same result on screen with one particular
>> keyboard (e.g. the Teres laptop)?
>>
>> I guess more than two (which I now know is the case).
> My own take: to be on that list, someone maintaining X has to obtain a
> model of that keyboard to map out all the keys. By the time that's
> been done, time has past and you likely will find that that model is
> history as far as shopping is concerned. Unlike with kernel
> development, there's not the pressure to keep up with new models as
> they come out. Pruning the list of its older models is not a
> priority either.


Unfortunately that makes perfect sense.


>
>>> I guess that with only 80 keys on your keyboard, many of the
>>> differences between these different models are dealing with keys you
>>> simply don't have. I can use pc105 for all my laptop, however many
>>> keys they have.
>> As far as I can see, the "source code" to Teres' keyboard does not say
>> anything about that, but the Schematics file lists 25 different keys
>> (KBD_X0 to KBD_X16 and KBD_Y0 to KBD_Y7), and there is a micro
>> controller ATMEGA16U4-AU.
>>
>> https://github.com/OLIMEX/DIY-LAPTOP/blob/master/HARDWARE/A64-TERES/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD/Rev.A/TERES-PCB5-KEYBOARD_Rev.A.sch
>>
>> I'm fine with thinking that KBD_X0, KBD_X1 etc on the "inside" are
>> connected to the 40 physical keys on the "outside". Actually with 23
>> electronic keys to combine, it would be enough with an unique output
>> per electronic key plus <Shift>, <AltGr> and <Shift>+<AltGr> to get 92
>> different combinations. That should be enough, no?
> Enough for what? I'm not sure what you mean. But as far as your use of
> the keyboard is concerned, the keypresses have been through the
> microprocessor, the kernel, and perhaps the xorg driver, so you're
> not going to see any one-to-one mapping.


Sorry for writing out loud, I'm not sure what I was thinking. But 
anyway, it should be possible to write a program that listens to 
keypresses and asks you to press different keys like the "left-of-z key" 
and then suggest to you which "Keyboard model" you actually have, 
regardless which "Keyboard model" you have chosen with dpkg-reconfigure. 
Then no pruning of the list would be necessary.

(I mean something like "people who have ¦ left of Z often also have Å to 
the right of P", maybe you'd like a 105 Intl. model?", it doesn't have 
to be exactly right)


>
>>> What's more important is the layout: for example a British layout
>>> puts \| left of z, whereas a US one will make that key <> and the
>>> \| will be 3 keys right of p. In response to that, and deleting
>>> £, many of the other punctuation characters get shuffled around.
>>>
>>> The "key that's missing" usually refers to that left-of-z key,
>>> (i) because the fact that it's the only punctuation character
>>> thereabouts makes it rather obvious that it's missing, (ii) small
>>> US keyboards don't have it whereas British (and I assume many
>>> European) ones usually do.
>>>
>>> You mentioned your Scandinavian USB keyboard with it's "broken bar"
>>> in that left-of-z position. The "broken" appearance has been a
>>> traditional engraving on the pipe keycap for years and doesn't
>>> have any particular significance significance: the key produces
>>> pipe when typed normally (ie shifted).
>>>
>>> I don't know how they decide which glyphs should be typed when
>>> the AltGr key is used. Perhaps it's not too surprising that they
>>> place ¦ on the | key as a mnemonic. To what end, who knows? The
>>> glyph is virtually useless. But what does your USB keyboard produce
>>> when you type this key with just shift pressed?
>> The "missing left-of-z key" on my "scandinavian" USB-keyboard gives
>> "<" with no key pressed, ">" with <Shift>, "|" with <AltGr> and "¦"
>> with <AltGr>+<Shift>.
> That suggests that the layout is more like a US than a British keyboard.
>
>> It is a 5 dollar cheapest possible off the shelf keyboard . It says
>> made in China and comes with spelling errors on the box. So it's
>> probably not even made in China.
>>
>> But I have finally found that 102 and Finnish gives me the pipe with
>> <i>+<AltGr>+<Shift>. So all is fine, except for that I don't
>> understand why.
> What, the USB keyboard?


No, the Teres keyboard.

My original problem was that I could not figure out how to get both 
Swedish and pipe "|" at all (which Jonas duly noted by removing "¦" from 
the original subject line). I thought the solution was to find the 
correct "Keyboard model" for Teres. It turned out that was impossible, 
the solution was to give up Swedish (which is quite counter intuitive) 
and choose Finnish instead, and to choose a "Keyboard model" that made 
no sense.


>   Is that because you have some Scandinavian
> characters to the right of p? (A US keyboard would be expected to have
> three punctuation characters there: []\ shifting to {}|.)
>
>> I would have left it at that if it wasn't for my plan to introduce the
>> Teres laptop as a DIY project in school. And I would be very unhappy
>> with my answers to why I should choose 102 and Finnish if I was a
>> student of mine.
> Teaching moments?
> . How many keyboard and laptop models have been released in, say, the
>    last two decades?
> . Are review models of them all loaned to kernel and X developers in
>    a timely fashion?
> . Are there people employed to keep up with specifying keyboard
>    models, and who pays them?
>
> Answers to questions like that might alleviate their dismay.
>
> That's before you get into what DIY is all about. DIY can mean just
> carrying out final assembly of a set of components that's been
> tailored for just that process. OTOH it can mean reengineering items
> for uses they weren't designed for. And anything in between.


Thank you! I will remember what you say!


>
> We're used to this with software: no one has the programs, scripts
> etc that I have on this computer. None of my computers was designed
> to run linux. None of my laptops has every Fn key (the coloured ones)
> operable as per the engraving on it (the so-called hot keys). They
> were designed for Windows and, as far as current versions are
> concerned, the models are long obsolete.
>
>> Btw, I have found a recent bug report against the package
>> keyboard-configuration complaining about translation errors wrt
>> "Keyboard model" names, so I guess I could file a wish-list bug too:
>>
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=924657
> Sure, just don't hold your breath. It might be more profitable to
> investigate how to redefine keys (VC and in X) to your liking.
> Especially useful for alphabets having more than 26 letters.
>
> For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to
> do things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing
> Alt-space from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy
> to catch the Alt by mistake). Little things like that.
> And in fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots,
> capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with
> xrandr, etc.

I don't think I will ever reach that level of sophistication, but it is 
very nice to hear that it is possible to make your computer do exactly 
what you want!

Thanks again David.

Best regards.

//Erik

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#208552 — Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|")

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Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-11 00:51:38)
> My original problem was that I could not figure out how to get both 
> Swedish and pipe "|" at all (which Jonas duly noted by removing "¦" 
> from the original subject line).

I edited the subject line in my posts unrelated to the content of the 
thread: Since recently emails sent by my "alot" which is my main Mail 
User Agent (MUA) gets rejected by Debian servers if header fields 
contain non-ASCII characters.

If someone happen to know the "alot" MUA and can tell the tweaking 
needed to its configuration then great, but I don't have the time for 
broader suggestions requiring me to debug on my own, so I simply try 
avoid non-ASCII characters in header fields :-/


> Den 2019-05-10 kl. 18:21, skrev David Wright:
> > For example, I append lines to /etc/console-setup/remap.inc to do 
> > things like enhancing the navigation keys, and preventing Alt-space 
> > from producing NO-BREAK SPACE (because it's too easy to catch the 
> > Alt by mistake). Little things like that.
> > And in fvwm I have keys for audio control, taking screen shots, 
> > capturing the screen as a movie, rotating the monitor with xrandr, 
> > etc.

@David, if you care to share your personal tweaks then I am interested 
in having a closer look, for inspiration and possibly for more general 
use.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#208559 — Re: dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration (Swedish with "|")

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Den 2019-05-11 kl. 01:22, skrev Jonas Smedegaard:
> Quoting Erik Josefsson (2019-05-11 00:51:38)
>> My original problem was that I could not figure out how to get both
>> Swedish and pipe "|" at all (which Jonas duly noted by removing "¦"
>> from the original subject line).
> I edited the subject line in my posts unrelated to the content of the
> thread: Since recently emails sent by my "alot" which is my main Mail
> User Agent (MUA) gets rejected by Debian servers if header fields
> contain non-ASCII characters.

The unintended consequence of interpreting your slight edit of the 
subject line as a comment on the content of the thread was that I 
learned a lot about my own mistakes :-)

Thank you!

That encourages me to ask another stupid question: I'd like to know why 
the "Keyboard model" has to be set before "Keyboard layout" when walking 
through the dpkg-reconfigure menues?

If it was the other way around, the first choice, "Keyboard layout", 
could perhaps make an informed selection from the list of "Keyboard 
models" that could be relevant at all.

In any case, what you care about as a user is "Keyboard layout", and in 
most cases when you have to make a series of choices, you start with 
your known knowns, not your known unknowns.

Best regards.

//Erik

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#208168

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Den 2019-05-04 kl. 18:23, skrev Kenneth Parker:
>
> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson  wrote:
> <snip>
>
>     -> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
>     -> Other
>     -> Swedish
>     -> Swedish
>     -> The default for the keyboard layout
>     -> No compose key
>     -> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
>     sudo shutdown -h now
>
>     And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
>
>
> With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the "p" 
> key.  I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters.
>
> One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol, 
> for when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.
>
> Which?


Actually, I'm just missing pipe (for exactly that reason).

The "¦" symbol is apparently called "broken bar" and happens to be the 
what my "scandinavian" USB- keyboard gives when the physical key between 
the <z> and the <left shift> key is pressed together with <alt 
gr>+<shift>. I have never used it before and I don't think it has a 
function in any language, see wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar#Solid_vertical_bar_vs_broken_bar

I have not yet figured out how to make the Teres keyboard do the pipe.

//Erik

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#208173

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On 05/04/2019 08:59 PM, Erik Josefsson wrote:
> Den 2019-05-04 kl. 18:23, skrev Kenneth Parker:
>>
>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM Erik Josefsson  wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>     -> Generic 105-key PC (intl.)
>>     -> Other
>>     -> Swedish
>>     -> Swedish
>>     -> The default for the keyboard layout
>>     -> No compose key
>>     -> Use Control+Alt+Backspace to terminate the X server? <No>
>>     sudo shutdown -h now
>>
>>     And it works! Now I am just missing "|" and "¦".
>>
>>
>> With US Keyboards, I see either of those characters, right of the "p" 
>> key.  I was not aware that there were two, distinct characters.
>>
>> One of them ("|" on my current keyboard) is used as a "Pipe" symbol, 
>> for when I "pipe" the results of one command into another.
>>
>> Which?
>
>
> Actually, I'm just missing pipe (for exactly that reason).
>
> The "¦" symbol is apparently called "broken bar" and happens to be the 
> what my "scandinavian" USB- keyboard gives when the physical key 
> between the <z> and the <left shift> key is pressed together with <alt 
> gr>+<shift>. I have never used it before and I don't think it has a 
> function in any language, see wikipedia:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_bar#Solid_vertical_bar_vs_broken_bar
>
> I have not yet figured out how to make the Teres keyboard do the pipe.
>
> //Erik
>
>
> What is on the last key on the right, directly above the right Enter 
> key? On a US keyboard, the is a back slant (unshifted) and the pipe, 
> shifted. You haven't mentioned that key at all.

--doug

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#208174

Den 2019-05-05 kl. 04:31, skrev Doug:
>
> What is on the last key on the right, directly above the right Enter 
> key? On a US keyboard, the is a back slant (unshifted) and the pipe, 
> shifted. You haven't mentioned that key at all.

The print on that physical key on the Teres laptop is backslash \ and 
(shifted) pipe | .

The keyboard physically looks like this (also the black letters map on 
the print on the keys):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#/media/File:KB_US-ISO9995-3.svg

except for the last row that from left has 
<ctrl><Fn><penguin><Alt><Spacebar><Alt><Menu><ctrl>.

Btw, that svg file seems to refer to an ISO standard that looks current:

https://www.iso.org/standard/57852.html

So maybe the Teres keyboard is actually standard compliant, despite (or 
thanks to?) the penguin key?

//Erik

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