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A call to drop gnome

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  A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 09:20 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 09:50 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-16 12:40 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 13:10 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 15:40 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 16:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 16:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 19:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 19:40 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mattcrews@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome Stephan Seitz <stse+debian@fsing.rootsland.net> - 2019-04-16 20:30 +0200
                      Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:20 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 07:00 +0200
                      Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-17 09:50 +0200
                        Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-18 06:40 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-17 09:50 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 20:30 +0200
                      Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-17 09:20 +0200
                        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-17 10:10 +0200
                    Re: A call to drop gnome "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 20:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-16 20:50 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-17 02:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:00 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-16 20:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2019-04-17 09:40 +0200
                  Re: A call to drop gnome Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-17 10:00 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-04-17 21:20 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-18 05:50 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-04-17 15:10 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2019-04-19 05:00 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-04-19 05:50 +0200
                Re: A call to drop gnome Peter Ehlert <pb21a@sdi-baja.com> - 2019-04-19 07:20 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 16:10 +0200
            Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 06:20 +0200
              Re: A call to drop gnome Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-17 09:20 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 06:00 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 05:50 +0200
          Re: A call to drop gnome Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 22:50 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Dekks Herton <dekkzz78@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 02:30 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2019-04-16 10:00 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@eng.it> - 2019-04-16 12:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-16 10:10 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2019-04-16 13:40 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 16:50 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-16 17:00 +0200
        Re: A call to drop gnome Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-16 18:50 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 01:40 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 10:00 +0200
    Re: A call to drop gnome 황병희 <soyeomul@red-october.yw.doraji.xyz> - 2019-04-17 17:20 +0200
      Re: A call to drop gnome Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2019-04-17 18:10 +0200

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#207603

Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> writes:

> 	Hi.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
>> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream
>> said their word loud and clear, and that
>> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
>
> I wrote it, in reply to Thomas e-mail. Please watch who you quote.
>
>
>> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video process,
>> just because the team have decided to like it lots.
>
> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to run
> GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable Debian.
> Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that everyone use the
> GNOME that way.

Wayland as default will be by and large OK as far as GNOME is concerned
IMO from the 2 years i've ran it as default. The last few gnome releases
are very solid. Waylands real problem is the DE/OS devs love it but
users and apparently most app devs couldn't care less.

> You have the ability to run GNOME over X. For now. I predicted that such
> ability may disappear in unspecified future (probably - years). Because
> GNOME upstream is (in)famous for feature removal.
>
>
>> I say this is NOT freedom.
>
> The usual arguments apply.
> Don't like it - patch it. Patches are welcome. They have the commit bit
> - you do not. Etc.
> And yes, there are some who did exactly that - Mate DE, Cinnamon DE to
> name a few examples.
>
>
>> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
>> just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.
>
> There's an appropriate place for such wishes, it's called
> https://bugs.debian.org.
>
> Reco
>

-- 
Regards.........
 
PGP Fingerprint: 3DF8 311C 4740 B5BC 3867  72DF 1050 452F 9BCE BA00

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#207536

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> I say this is NOT freedom.
> 
> Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I guess that
> like me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will work best.
> 
> 
> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not just as
> the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.

Just so I understand correctly, is this a serious request to remove
the freedom of the current GNOME user base to install it, in order
to encourage the GNOME project to be more free?

As in, it is not enough that an ignorant GNOME user might stumble
across something they can't configure and decide to explore other
desktop environments: they must be prevented from initially using
GNOME, instead being forcibly introduced to some other DE and only
able to use GNOME by installing it later with the package manager?

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but if I haven't, which DE do you
think should be the new default? Would it be Mate as you use now, or
some other?

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#207546

>>>>> "AS" == Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> writes:

AS> Hello, On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge
AS> wrote:
>> I say this is NOT freedom.
>> 
>> Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I
>> guess that like me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will
>> work best.
>> 
>> 
>> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option
>> (not just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.

AS> Just so I understand correctly, is this a serious request to
AS> remove the freedom of the current GNOME user base to install it,
AS> in order to encourage the GNOME project to be more free?

I think that is more "let there an option to have a desktop machine
without gnome as default". Something like this:

"Gnome Desktop (suggested)"
"Desktop box w/o gnome (brave experienced users"). 

The second option should probably ask for more options.

-- 
 /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
\/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
     già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

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#207539

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> Good afternoon

[...]

> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's
> upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.

As Reco said, this wasn't me.

> I've never been a fan of gnome [...]

Similar for me (well, I was a fan shortly up to Gnome 2).

[...]

> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video
> process, just because the team have decided to like it lots.

This sentence doesn't make much sense to me. What do you want to
say there?

> I say this is NOT freedom.

Hm.

> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
> just as the default desktop) [...]

Thanks $DEITY you aren't taking decisions. It seems to me that your
"freedom" would be much more restrictive that what we have now.

Hey. Debian's not perfect, by a long stretch. But anyone can
contribute. Forbidding to package a piece of free software,
as you suggest above, won't fly in Debian, and this is a Good
Thing.

What have you packaged for Debian?

> By the bye, it's 16:52, and Autumn in my back yard. There are leaves
> all over our footpaths.

Amen.

Cheers
-- tomás

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#207548

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, Keith Bainbridge wrote:

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 02:54:02
> From: Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: A call to drop gnome
> Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 07:12:08 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> Good afternoon
>
>
> I've copied 2 bits from the discussion on synaptic and adding my 2 bobs' worth
> towards the next review of whether gnome remains the default desktop.
>
>
>
> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream
> said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
>
>
>
> On 16/4/19 12:23 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote:>
> > The decision to ship GNOME as the default desktop is regularly
> > revisited: And
> > if a future GNOME release dropped X support altogether, you can be sure
> > that
> > would be a factor in the re-evaluation that would follow.
>
>
> I've never been a fan of gnome, and I can only say that in the beginning it
> was simply because I didn't yet know about themes etc. I settled for KDE, in
> the 1990's.  I now know that it was the slowest of all, but I found my way
> around easiest.
>
> I changed desktops several times over the years, settling on Mate since about
> 2014.
>
> I'm always looking for a better way, so gave gnome a run. It lasted until I
> found that I am not meant to be able to put the tool-bar where I like it. It
> is possible, but...........   Smacks of os/x desktop; some flexibility, but
> not everything is changeable. (Gore, even MS allows me to move the tool-bar.)
>
> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video process,
> just because the team have decided to like it lots.
>
> I say this is NOT freedom.
>
> Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I guess that like
> me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will work best.
>
>
> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not just as
> the default desktop) until they encourage freedom. Will I ever try it again
> when it is a truly free?  Probably - in the name of looking for a better way.
> Never know - there maybe something that changes my computing life totally.
>
>
> By the bye, it's 16:52, and Autumn in my back yard. There are leaves all over
> our footpaths.
>
>
>

-- 

Wayland if what I read on debian-accessibility list is correct has
unsolved screen reader accessibility problems.  Since I came into Linux
mostly using the command line such a switch would have a limited impact
since when I do use any part of the graphical user interface environment
it's to do things the command line environment can't.  I have X with mate
running on this machine now and a case in point came up yesterday.
Logging into youtube-viewer has to be done with a graphical browser since
the command line alternatives do not do javascript.  Now the log in url
google requires is over 200 characters long which is no picnic typing.
So with the help of others on the blinux-list I came up with a set of
instructions to get this done.  For me, only possible since X works as
well as it now does.  So unless or until Wayland gets its accessibility
act cleaned up, removal of X will not be a minor event for me and others
in the screen reader accessibility user community.  Linux is getting more
and more like Microsoft in this respect.  Those who used to use MSdos 6.22
and remember what happened afterwards with MSDOS 7.0 with Microsoft and
how Microsoft mishandled that know what I'm talking about here.  Earlier
much in Linux was based on real choices users could make now Linus
Torvalds is arguing for standardization of the linux desktop.  Earlier I
worked for the Navy before NMCI came into existence and that was back in
the day when depending on what base you called home you'd likely be
running different software and different operating systems.  That
non-standardization from a security perspective probably made it more
difficult for the malware writers to do their work.  With NMCI and what
NMCI emanated it's either a specific version of windows or Linux for the
really important equipment system-wide.

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#207562

Not sure what this is about.
Isn't a desktop manager, display environment whatever its called a way 
to present icons that you can click on and it starts a program you want 
to use and then gets out of the way ?
Is this about having common libraries that control what appears on the 
screen ?
Am I likely to not be able to use Xming at some future date ?

mick


-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#207563

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 03:41:28PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> Not sure what this is about.
> Isn't a desktop manager, display environment whatever its called a way to
> present icons that you can click on and it starts a program you want to use
> and then gets out of the way ?

A window manager is a program that allows the placement and resizing of
windows, and controls which one is "on top", and so on.  There are lot of
window managers, and many of them offer a whole bunch of features like
menus, icons, program activation from either of those, binding of keys
to actions, etc.

A desktop environment is a window manager PLUS a whole crapload of
additional stuff that I do not personally understand.  But it's really big
and really complicated.  Like, for example, fvwm has an installed-size of
about 6.5 megabytes.  How big is GNOME?  I wouldn't be surprised if it's
two orders of magnitude larger than that, just for its "core" components,
not counting a bunch of games or whatever else can be added on.

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#207565

	Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:54:06AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Like, for example, fvwm has an installed-size of
> about 6.5 megabytes.  How big is GNOME?  I wouldn't be surprised if it's
> two orders of magnitude larger than that, just for its "core" components,
> not counting a bunch of games or whatever else can be added on.

# apt install -o APT::Install-Recommends=0 gnome-core
...
Need to get 187 MB of archives.
After this operation, 654 MB of additional disk space will be used.

I'd say that your estimate hit bullseye.

And adding the bells and whistles, it's four orders of magnitude of your
fvwm install:

# apt install -o APT::Install-Recommends=1 -o APT::Install-Suggests=1 gnome
...
Need to get 5,260 MB of archives.
After this operation, 18.4 GB of additional disk space will be used.

Reco

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#207600

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:54:02 +1000
Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> wrote:

> Good afternoon
> 
> 
> I've copied 2 bits from the discussion on synaptic and adding my 2 bobs' 
> worth towards the next review of whether gnome remains the default desktop.
> 
> 
> 
> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's 
> upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
>  > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.  
> 
> 
> 
> On 16/4/19 12:23 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote:>
>  > The decision to ship GNOME as the default desktop is regularly
>  > revisited: And
>  > if a future GNOME release dropped X support altogether, you can be sure
>  > that
>  > would be a factor in the re-evaluation that would follow.  
> 
> 
> I've never been a fan of gnome, and I can only say that in the beginning 
> it was simply because I didn't yet know about themes etc. I settled for 
> KDE, in the 1990's.  I now know that it was the slowest of all, but I 
> found my way around easiest.
> 
> [snip]

So, don't install GNOME.  Choose another DE.  Just because it's "the
default" means nothing. Or do what I did 7 years ago when I first
installed Wheezy after using Fedore/GNOME for a number of years: Abandon
the desktop environment all-together and use a window manager. (I chose
Openbox.) You'll be amazed at how much smoother and more responsive
everything is without doing anything other than getting rid of all
DE background crap you don't really need.

B

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#207628

On 17/4/19 9:37 am, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:54:02 +1000
> Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I've never been a fan of gnome, and I can only say that in the beginning
>> it was simply because I didn't yet know about themes etc. I settled for
>> KDE, in the 1990's.  I now know that it was the slowest of all, but I
>> found my way around easiest.
>>
>> [snip]
> 
> So, don't install GNOME.  Choose another DE.  Just because it's "the
> default" means nothing. Or do what I did 7 years ago when I first
> installed Wheezy after using Fedore/GNOME for a number of years: Abandon
> the desktop environment all-together and use a window manager. (I chose
> Openbox.) You'll be amazed at how much smoother and more responsive
> everything is without doing anything other than getting rid of all
> DE background crap you don't really need.
> 
> B
> 

I see a few others agree that I need only a window manager. I will try 
this, in the interest of 'looking for a better way'.


I don't believe I'm not looking for smother performance. My hardware is 
more than capable: 8G ram, 2016 version i7 processor, ssd claims 5x 
Faster than hdd     Often as not vbox guests run as quick/smooth as the 
guest system.

But I am up for a surprise.



-- 
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3216@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

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#207643

> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not

FYI; Ubuntu 18.04 use GNOME as default desktop. Ah yes i'm fan of GNOME.

Sincerely, Byung-Hee from South Korea.

-- 
^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//

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#207647

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, 11:13 AM 황병희 <soyeomul@red-october.yw.doraji.xyz>
wrote:

> > So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
>
> FYI; Ubuntu 18.04 use GNOME as default desktop. Ah yes i'm fan of GNOME.
>

Only if it's called "Ubuntu".   One of my Machines runs Xubuntu, with
XFCE.  And there are quite a variety of "leading letters", including K (for
KDE) and L (LXCD).

>
> Sincerely, Byung-Hee from South Korea.
>
> --
> ^고맙습니다 _地平天成_ 감사합니다_^))//
>

Kenneth Parker

>
>

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