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A few questions (buster and presentation)

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  A few questions (buster and presentation) Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-04-16 19:30 +0200
    Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-04-16 19:40 +0200
      Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2019-04-16 19:40 +0200
        Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-17 13:10 +0200
      Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-16 21:10 +0200
        Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-04-16 21:10 +0200
        Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-16 21:50 +0200
    Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-16 19:50 +0200
    Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-16 20:20 +0200
      Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-04-16 21:10 +0200
        Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-16 21:40 +0200
        Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-21 14:30 +0200
      Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2019-04-17 04:00 +0200
        Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-17 08:50 +0200
      Re: A few questions (buster and presentation) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-17 09:30 +0200

#207568 — A few questions (buster and presentation)

Hi

Just a few questions for clarity.

There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
in the presentation as

Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)

I understand that KDE is going to be using Wayland too (Wayland
website), does this mean it will use synaptic or does KDE and use its
own package manager?  versions quoted above are the versions that come
with Debian 10.

I want to focus this on the default Buster options and make passing
mentions to other desktop environments.

What version of Xorg comes with Buster or more to the point how to I
query this directly.  for apt it is apt -v but xorg is different as it
is mutiple components.

Thanks

Paul


-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#207569

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
>There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
>in the presentation as
>
>Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
>Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
>Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)

There's also aptitude, which actually works well.

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#207571

On 4/16/19 10:32 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
>> in the presentation as
>>
>> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
>> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
>> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> 
> There's also aptitude, which actually works well.
> 

FYI, Synaptic is not available in Debian Buster.

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#207634

On 04/16/2019 12:36 PM, Matthew Crews wrote:
> On 4/16/19 10:32 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
>>> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
>>> in the presentation as
>>>
>>> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
>>> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
>>> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
>>
>> There's also aptitude, which actually works well.
>>
> 
> FYI, Synaptic is not available in Debian Buster.

There is an important implication of that.
If Synaptic (or an acceptable alternative) is not available then there 
are users who wait for a usable Debian (or other) release.

I for one. I use MATE, IIRC I skipped a release after Gnome3 presented 
an unacceptable UI.

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#207586

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 13:32:10 Michael Stone wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> >There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain
> > this in the presentation as
> >
> >Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> >Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> >Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
>
> There's also aptitude, which actually works well.

if you are damned carefull, I had it destroy 3 installs already, so badly 
I had to do a full reinstall.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#207587

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 03:00:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>if you are damned carefull, I had it destroy 3 installs already, so badly
>I had to do a full reinstall.

You have to really try, since it tells you what it's going to do before 
it does anything. But you have a history of odd problems so I'm sure 
it's possible.

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#207596

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Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-04-16 21:00:04)
> On Tuesday 16 April 2019 13:32:10 Michael Stone wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> > >There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain
> > > this in the presentation as
> > >
> > >Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> > >Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> > >Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> >
> > There's also aptitude, which actually works well.
> 
> if you are damned carefull, I had it destroy 3 installs already, so badly 
> I had to do a full reinstall.

All package managers will "destroy" your system if you ignore their 
warnings about package removals!

All package managers need to do *something* when you use some unstable 
package combination - which had to be the case for those systems you let 
aptitude destroy.

When aptitude run into package conflicts its first suggestion is to 
remove conflicting packages, where apt and apt-get instead tries to 
force-install (e.g. ignoring recommendations).

When aptitude suggests a solution, you can tell it to come up with other 
solutions to the conflict, and typically 2nd or 3rd proposal is what you 
wanted.

If you dislike removals by default, then add a file 
/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99avoid-removals with this content:

  Aptitude::ProblemResolver::Remove-Level "maximum";

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#207572

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On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 18:27:34 +0100
Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> wrote:

Hello Paul,

>I understand that KDE is going to be using Wayland too (Wayland
>website), does this mean it will use synaptic or does KDE and use its

Currently, I run Synaptic with KDE.  No problems.

There's also muon - a QT based package installer.  I've not yet delved
too deeply into its innards, so can't pass knowledgeable comment on it.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Shut it up you silly cow
Golden Green - Wonder Stuff

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#207577

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Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
> in the presentation as
> 
> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)

There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):

command-line:
  * apt
  * packagekit-tools
  * cupt
  * wajig

command-line and scripted:
  * apt-get

scripted:
  * unattended-upgrades
  * cron-apt

command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
  * aptitude

GNOME:
  * software-properties-gtk
  * gnome-packagekit

GTK
  * listaller
  * synaptic (but not in Buster)

KDE:
  * software-properties-kde
  * apper
  * muon
  * qapt-utils


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#207588

On 16/04/2019 19:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
>> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
>> in the presentation as
>>
>> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
>> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
>> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> 
> There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):
> 
> command-line:
>   * apt
>   * packagekit-tools
>   * cupt
>   * wajig
> 
> command-line and scripted:
>   * apt-get
> 
> scripted:
>   * unattended-upgrades
>   * cron-apt
> 
> command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
>   * aptitude
> 
> GNOME:
>   * software-properties-gtk
>   * gnome-packagekit
> 
> GTK
>   * listaller
>   * synaptic (but not in Buster)
> 
> KDE:
>   * software-properties-kde
>   * apper
>   * muon
>   * qapt-utils
> 
> 
>  - Jonas
> 
Cool thanks for this.  Just out of interest as I prefer to be using lxde
which GUI package manager would Buster install by default for that.?

I need to remember that this presentation is for Debian with Gnome +
Wayland.

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#207595

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Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 20:59:54)
> 
> 
> On 16/04/2019 19:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
> >> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
> >> in the presentation as
> >>
> >> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> >> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> >> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> > 
> > There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):
> > 
> > command-line:
> >   * apt
> >   * packagekit-tools
> >   * cupt
> >   * wajig
> > 
> > command-line and scripted:
> >   * apt-get
> > 
> > scripted:
> >   * unattended-upgrades
> >   * cron-apt
> > 
> > command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
> >   * aptitude
> > 
> > GNOME:
> >   * software-properties-gtk
> >   * gnome-packagekit
> > 
> > GTK
> >   * listaller
> >   * synaptic (but not in Buster)
> > 
> > KDE:
> >   * software-properties-kde
> >   * apper
> >   * muon
> >   * qapt-utils
> > 
> > 
> >  - Jonas
> > 
> Cool thanks for this.  Just out of interest as I prefer to be using lxde
> which GUI package manager would Buster install by default for that.?

This command will tell you what debian-installer would pull in when you 
choose to install the lxde desktop:

  apt show task-lxde-desktop

To answer your question: None (because synaptic is not in Buster)


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#207731

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Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 20:59:54)
> On 16/04/2019 19:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > GTK
> >   * listaller
> >   * synaptic (but not in Buster)

Synaptic seems targeted Buster again, since yesterday: 
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#207606

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On 17/04/19 6:19 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> GTK
>   * listaller
>   * synaptic (but not in Buster)

Just looked up listaller.

It seems to be
 * not in buster
 * only on arm64?
 * an installer for its own kind of packages, not debs.

That's just from reading its page on packages.debian.org. Further
reading suggests maybe it can do other package types as well, but that's
not its core purpose?

Richard

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#207619

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Quoting Richard Hector (2019-04-17 03:55:44)
> On 17/04/19 6:19 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > GTK
> >   * listaller
> >   * synaptic (but not in Buster)
> 
> Just looked up listaller.
> 
> It seems to be
>  * not in buster
>  * only on arm64?
>  * an installer for its own kind of packages, not debs.
> 
> That's just from reading its page on packages.debian.org. Further
> reading suggests maybe it can do other package types as well, but that's
> not its core purpose?

Ah, you are right - that package is gone: 
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/listaller

Sorry for not checking properly before sharing!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#207623

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Quoting Jonas Smedegaard (2019-04-16 20:19:15)
> Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
> > There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
> > in the presentation as
> > 
> > Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> > Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> > Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> 
> There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):

Here's an updated list (drop listaller; add gnome-software, isenkram, 
plasma-discover, cockpit-packagekit, and packagekit-command-not-found; 
fix section for software-properties-gtk; fix section name "automated"):

command-line:
  * apt
  * packagekit-tools
  * cupt
  * wajig
  * packagekit-command-not-found

command-line and scripted:
  * apt-get

automated:
  * unattended-upgrades
  * cron-apt

command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
  * aptitude

GNOME:
  * gnome-software
  * gnome-packagekit

GTK
  * synaptic (not in Buster)
  * software-properties-gtk

KDE:
  * plasma-discover
  * software-properties-kde
  * apper
  * muon
  * qapt-utils

Web:
  * cockpit-packagekit


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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