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Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster.

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  Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Kieran Smyth <kieranx451.alt@gmail.com> - 2019-04-15 07:30 +0200
    Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-15 08:10 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-04-15 09:20 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-15 10:00 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-15 15:20 +0200
          Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-15 22:00 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-15 09:20 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-15 09:50 +0200
          Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-15 10:00 +0200
            Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-15 10:20 +0200
              Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Paul Sutton <zleap@disroot.org> - 2019-04-15 10:30 +0200
              Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-15 13:40 +0200
                Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-15 14:00 +0200
                  Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-15 14:10 +0200
                Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-15 18:50 +0200
                  Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-15 19:20 +0200
              Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-15 16:30 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Rick Thomas <rbthomas@pobox.com> - 2019-04-15 10:40 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Kieran Smyth <kieranx451.alt@gmail.com> - 2019-04-15 19:20 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Thomas D Dial <tdial@acm.org> - 2019-04-16 03:00 +0200
    Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Keith Bainbridge <keithrbau@gmail.com> - 2019-04-15 09:50 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-15 10:20 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-15 12:40 +0200
          Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-15 13:10 +0200
            Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-16 05:40 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2019-04-29 03:40 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2019-04-27 11:20 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Frank <zuiderduin@gmx.com> - 2019-04-27 12:00 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-04-27 20:50 +0200
        Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-29 22:40 +0200
    Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> - 2019-04-15 12:10 +0200
      Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-15 18:30 +0200
    Re: Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster. Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2019-04-27 22:40 +0200

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#207452 — Cannot re-install synaptic on Buster.

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Hi,

For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop environment.

When i open up a terminal and try to re-install it, i get the following-

# apt update
Hit:1 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian buster InRelease
Hit:2 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian buster-updates InRelease
Hit:3 http://security.debian.org/debian-security buster/updates InRelease
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
All packages are up to date.


# apt install synaptic
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package synaptic is not available, but is referred to by another package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source

E: Package 'synaptic' has no installation candidate


/etc/apt/sources.list is the following-

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster main contrib non-free

deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ buster-updates main contrib
non-free

deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security/ buster/updates main contrib
non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security/ buster/updates main
contrib non-free


I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
on my system i'd really appreciate it.

Thank you in advance for any help that may be provided.

- Kieran

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#207453

	Hi.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
> For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
> ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop environment.

Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.

> I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
> on my system i'd really appreciate it.

You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore. Consider
using gnome-packagekit instead.

Reco

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#207454

On 15/04/2019 07:03, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
>> For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
>> ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop environment.
> 
> Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.
> 
>> I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
>> on my system i'd really appreciate it.
> 
> You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore. Consider
> using gnome-packagekit instead.
> 
> Reco
> 

Hi Reco,


Thanks for your reply, as, on a related note, this helps me with the
basic presentation that I an working on.  I was aware that synaptic is
now removed, but I wasn't aware what it it had been replaced with

I get info on what is in buster from this page

https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster

Would it be worth updating this page so others know to use
gnome-packagekit instead, even if this information is elsewhere.

Regards

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#207460

	Hi.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 08:18:20AM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> Thanks for your reply, as, on a related note, this helps me with the
> basic presentation that I an working on.  I was aware that synaptic is
> now removed, but I wasn't aware what it it had been replaced with

Not 'replaced' per se. gnome-packagekit is not a new software - as far
as Debian concerned - it predates jessie. Its features are inferior to
synaptic, which is what one can expect from the GNOME software, so its
no wonder that its popularity was low in Debian. Until now, that is, as
gnome-packagekit seem to be the only viable alternative to synaptic
assuming the user will run a Wayland session.
And said session is the default with GNOME, as of buster.


> I get info on what is in buster from this page
> https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster

As I wrote, gnome-packagekit ain't new. I expect that [1] will be
updated sooner or later though.


> Would it be worth updating this page so others know to use
> gnome-packagekit instead, even if this information is elsewhere.

I suggest you to update [2]. After all, they made this page for a
reason, and it provides obsolete information as of buster.

Reco

[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/books
[2] https://wiki.debian.org/QuickPackageManagement

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#207489

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 08:18:20AM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> I get info on what is in buster from this page
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster
> 
> Would it be worth updating this page so others know to use
> gnome-packagekit instead, even if this information is elsewhere.

As end users, we don't know how the synaptic situation is going to play
out.  It may be removed permanently, or the bug that caused its removal
may be fixed/closed in any of several possible ways.

So for us, it's wait and see.

Recommending a vastly inferior GNOME substitute isn't what I consider a
proper, permanent solution.  But it's a wiki, and you have just as much
right to edit it as I do, if you think the advice will be useful.

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#207521

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On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 09:13:37 -0400
Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:

Hello Greg,

>As end users, we don't know how the synaptic situation is going to play
>out.  It may be removed permanently, or the bug that caused its removal

Look up the bug report.  Sure, it's not possible to say for definite
what will happen, but the aim is clearly to get Synaptic back into
testing.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
People stare like they've seen a ghost
Titanic (My Over) Reaction - 999

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#207456

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On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:03:47AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
> > For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
> > ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop environment.
> 
> Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.
> 
> > I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
> > on my system i'd really appreciate it.
> 
> You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore. Consider
> using gnome-packagekit instead.

Or just ditch Wayland (/me runs for cover ;-)

Cheers
-- t

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#207458

	Hi.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:14:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:03:47AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
> > > For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
> > > ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop environment.
> > 
> > Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.
> > 
> > > I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
> > > on my system i'd really appreciate it.
> > 
> > You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore. Consider
> > using gnome-packagekit instead.
> 
> Or just ditch Wayland (/me runs for cover ;-)

A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.
Tried the thing, did not like all two 'window managers' from the main
archive that come with the Wayland.

Reco

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#207461

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On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:42:19AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:14:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Or just ditch Wayland (/me runs for cover ;-)

This was admittedly a bit provocative -- no offense intended.

> A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.

Why do you think it is a short term solution?

> Tried the thing, did not like all two 'window managers' from the main
> archive that come with the Wayland.

This is more or less my situation. After a detour through Gnome I
finally came back to fvwm, and glad I did.

I deeply dislike the Wayland approach and hope I die of old age
before I have to switch.

Cheers
-- t

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#207463

	Hi.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:56:04AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:42:19AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:14:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > Or just ditch Wayland (/me runs for cover ;-)
> 
> This was admittedly a bit provocative -- no offense intended.

None taken. I saw the smiley ☺.


> > A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.
> 
> Why do you think it is a short term solution?

Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.

A modern GNOME project is known for feature removal. There was no single
GNOME release since the 3.0 version which lacked "we've removed A and
we've removed your ability to do B, because reasons" in the changelog.

Therefore one can expect the removal of the ability to run GNOME with
plain X (it's possible for now), and in GNOME speak it's will be a
"feature".

Debian project, like the most distributions, ships GNOME as a
primary/default Desktop Envirionment. Therefore one can expect that this
GNOME's "feature"-to-be will be included in Debian sooner or later, and
once done the "feature" can affect other, seemingly unrelated packages.
A synaptic comes to mind here ☺.

Luckily for us, Debian stable users, we're promised a lack of behaviour
changes during the lifecycle of a stable release. And Debian keeps that
promise most of the time.


So, I'll keep using X in buster, as I stopped using GNOME long time ago
(etch was the testing, grass was greener etc).


> > Tried the thing, did not like all two 'window managers' from the main
> > archive that come with the Wayland.
> 
> This is more or less my situation. After a detour through Gnome I
> finally came back to fvwm, and glad I did.

Ah, that's the thing. They give you mutter (it's a GNOME thing) and they
give you weston (a reference 'window manager').
Both lose in usability to my openbox setup.

Reco

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#207464

On 15/04/2019 09:15, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:56:04AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:42:19AM +0300, Reco wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:14:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Or just ditch Wayland (/me runs for cover ;-)
>>
>> This was admittedly a bit provocative -- no offense intended.
> 
> None taken. I saw the smiley ☺.
> 
> 
>>> A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.
>>
>> Why do you think it is a short term solution?
> 
> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
> word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
> 
> A modern GNOME project is known for feature removal. There was no single
> GNOME release since the 3.0 version which lacked "we've removed A and
> we've removed your ability to do B, because reasons" in the changelog.
> 
> Therefore one can expect the removal of the ability to run GNOME with
> plain X (it's possible for now), and in GNOME speak it's will be a
> "feature".
> 
> Debian project, like the most distributions, ships GNOME as a
> primary/default Desktop Envirionment. Therefore one can expect that this
> GNOME's "feature"-to-be will be included in Debian sooner or later, and
> once done the "feature" can affect other, seemingly unrelated packages.
> A synaptic comes to mind here ☺.
> 
> Luckily for us, Debian stable users, we're promised a lack of behaviour
> changes during the lifecycle of a stable release. And Debian keeps that
> promise most of the time.
> 
> 
> So, I'll keep using X in buster, as I stopped using GNOME long time ago
> (etch was the testing, grass was greener etc).
> 
> 
>>> Tried the thing, did not like all two 'window managers' from the main
>>> archive that come with the Wayland.
>>
>> This is more or less my situation. After a detour through Gnome I
>> finally came back to fvwm, and glad I did.
> 
> Ah, that's the thing. They give you mutter (it's a GNOME thing) and they
> give you weston (a reference 'window manager').
> Both lose in usability to my openbox setup.
> 
> Reco
> 

Hi

I prefer and will stick to lxde,  however with this presentation it is
probably better to stick to the default options,  which I am guesing
will be wayland + gnome 3.  Of course I want to also make it simple
enough so people can easily edit it for their needs.

If I select desktop environment + Lxde,  I would assume that the system
will go back to X + lxde.

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

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#207481

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On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:15:48AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:56:04AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:42:19AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:14:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > This was admittedly a bit provocative -- no offense intended.
> 
> None taken. I saw the smiley ☺.

Phew :)

> > > A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.
> > 
> > Why do you think it is a short term solution?
> 
> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
> word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.

Yes, for GNOME users that's right. And GNOME is Debian's default DE.
But not the only one, and you don't even have to have a DE (I haven't
one, for example).

> A modern GNOME project is known for feature removal [...]

I don't like myself many of the choices GNOME has taken. Nevertheless,
its intention is to make user's lives more enjoyable [1], and that
is commendable. For "my" end users (i.e. those for whom I play
"local friendly hacker") I tend to help them taking their choices.
Some are fine with modern GNOME (that means I have to have some
working knowledge of that), others run away, screaming in horror
(they usually settle on something like Mate or XFCE).

Myself? As I already said: to me, a desktop environment is an
abomination. Give me a "classical" window manager and I'm your
guest.

As elsewhere, I'd say: diversity rocks!

> Luckily for us, Debian stable users, we're promised a lack of behaviour
> changes during the lifecycle of a stable release. And Debian keeps that
> promise most of the time [...]

You make it sound as if there were some cabal behind Debian. I think
Debian (folks) will be happy to keep alternatives viable as long as
there is someone around willing to do the legwork.

Watch again systemd: while the default in Debian, it is perfectly
possible to install a Debian system without it (mine is SysV, and
I do play around with installers for raspi). And quite a bit of
the necessary legwork (SysV init scripts for packages et al) *is
being done by the respective package maintainers, many of whom may
be systemd proponents... just because they think your choice is
important!*

For me, that's awesome. That is how civilisation works. That's why
I tend to go berserk every time I see mud being slung at them.
We might disagree, but we shouldn't sling mud at people giving us
software for free. Discussion, Bug reports, patches, all fine.
But no mud.

> > This is more or less my situation. After a detour through Gnome I
> > finally came back to fvwm, and glad I did.
> 
> Ah, that's the thing. They give you mutter (it's a GNOME thing) and they
> give you weston (a reference 'window manager').
> Both lose in usability to my openbox setup.

Hey. It's free software. Shouldn't we be rather saying "we give
ourselves [2] this and that?" Who's "they" anyway

Now let me step down from my soapbox.

Cheers

[1] I'm applying some amount of Hanlon's razor here
[2] In the reciprocal, not in the egocentric sense

-- t

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#207483

	Hi.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:31:04PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.
> > > 
> > > Why do you think it is a short term solution?
> > 
> > Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
> 
> Yes, for GNOME users that's right. And GNOME is Debian's default DE.
> But not the only one, and you don't even have to have a DE (I haven't
> one, for example).

There are users that are installing Debian from the first install DVD.
Some of those come to this maillist from time to time.
There are users that are installing Debian from the Live DVD.
These are also coming to this maillist.

Never underestimate the power of the defaults. If they give it by
default - people will use it even given the alternatives.


> > Luckily for us, Debian stable users, we're promised a lack of behaviour
> > changes during the lifecycle of a stable release. And Debian keeps that
> > promise most of the time [...]
> 
> You make it sound as if there were some cabal behind Debian.

One can call them that. But officially they are called Debian
Developers ☺. I meant nothing sinister, I assure you.

'Most of the time' referenced certain packages (samba, wireshark for
instance), which versions was changed during stretch's lifecycle
because backporting security fixes was not feasible.
Oh, and *browsers*. Let's not forget *those*.


> I think Debian (folks) will be happy to keep alternatives viable as
> long as there is someone around willing to do the legwork.

#818366 convinces me otherwise.


> Watch again systemd: while the default in Debian, it is perfectly
> possible to install a Debian system without it (mine is SysV, and
> I do play around with installers for raspi). And quite a bit of
> the necessary legwork (SysV init scripts for packages et al) *is
> being done by the respective package maintainers, many of whom may
> be systemd proponents... just because they think your choice is
> important!*

I'm not going to touch *this*. We have enough threads about s*****d here
already. A good example nevertheless.


> > > This is more or less my situation. After a detour through Gnome I
> > > finally came back to fvwm, and glad I did.
> > 
> > Ah, that's the thing. They give you mutter (it's a GNOME thing) and they
> > give you weston (a reference 'window manager').
> > Both lose in usability to my openbox setup.
> 
> Hey. It's free software. Shouldn't we be rather saying "we give
> ourselves [2] this and that?" Who's "they" anyway

I'm not a part of Debian project, I'm just a user.
While I can build a package or two if a need arises, I'm too lazy to
play this "maintainer for myself" role too often.
So I (the user) use the packages they (maintainers) give me.

And I use "they" as a way of referring the group of people I'm not
acquainted with, or whose identities are not relevant to the question
discussed. Fits here, IMO.

Reco

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#207485

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On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 02:52:37PM +0300, Reco wrote:

[...]

> I'm not a part of Debian project, I'm just a user.

Then you are part, somehow. The one thing I appreciate about the
Debian project is precisely that it doesn't treat their users as
a merchandise (something less and less common these days).

> While I can build a package or two if a need arises, I'm too lazy to
> play this "maintainer for myself" role too often.
> So I (the user) use the packages they (maintainers) give me.

Yup. But they're listening. And they tend to be nice and civilised
people.

> And I use "they" as a way of referring the group of people I'm not
> acquainted with, or whose identities are not relevant to the question
> discussed. Fits here, IMO.

Do you a favour. Next time there's a Debconf near you, do attend (if
at all possible). It's totally worth it, and perhaps, after that,
"their" identities will be relevant [1].

Cheers

[1] I understand that you used this "identities aren't relevant" in
   a slightly different sense, by your restriction of context "to the
   question discussed". But I took the freedom to misinterpret you
   (just a little bit) to make the point, that yes, those Debian
   developers are people, each one which their character, each one
   different, but whom I trust _a lot_ (the functioning of my work
   computer depends on many of them, and they've let me down very
   rarely), and whom, in a somewhat abstract way I love, because
   they do their stuff with dedication, and often for no pay.
   So at some undefined meta level it is relevant again :-)

-- t 

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#207514

On Mon 15 Apr 2019 at 13:31:04 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:15:48AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:56:04AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:42:19AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:14:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
[...]
> > > > A short-term solution at best, although I'll avoid Wayland in buster.
> > > 
> > > Why do you think it is a short term solution?
> > 
> > Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
> 
> Yes, for GNOME users that's right. And GNOME is Debian's default DE.
> But not the only one, and you don't even have to have a DE (I haven't
> one, for example).
> 
> > A modern GNOME project is known for feature removal [...]
> 
> I don't like myself many of the choices GNOME has taken. Nevertheless,
> its intention is to make user's lives more enjoyable [1], and that
> is commendable. For "my" end users (i.e. those for whom I play
> "local friendly hacker") I tend to help them taking their choices.
> Some are fine with modern GNOME (that means I have to have some
> working knowledge of that), others run away, screaming in horror
> (they usually settle on something like Mate or XFCE).
> 
> Myself? As I already said: to me, a desktop environment is an
> abomination. Give me a "classical" window manager and I'm your
> guest.
> 
> As elsewhere, I'd say: diversity rocks!
> 
> > Luckily for us, Debian stable users, we're promised a lack of behaviour
> > changes during the lifecycle of a stable release. And Debian keeps that
> > promise most of the time [...]
> 
> You make it sound as if there were some cabal behind Debian. I think
> Debian (folks) will be happy to keep alternatives viable as long as
> there is someone around willing to do the legwork.
> 
> Watch again systemd: while the default in Debian, it is perfectly
> possible to install a Debian system without it (mine is SysV, and
> I do play around with installers for raspi). And quite a bit of
> the necessary legwork (SysV init scripts for packages et al) *is
> being done by the respective package maintainers, many of whom may
> be systemd proponents... just because they think your choice is
> important!*

I've always assumed that there are Developers who, like us,
avoid various types of software, like DEs, and so there will
always remain possible methods of circumventihg them.

> For me, that's awesome. That is how civilisation works. That's why
> I tend to go berserk every time I see mud being slung at them.
> We might disagree, but we shouldn't sling mud at people giving us
> software for free. Discussion, Bug reports, patches, all fine.
> But no mud.

Yes, but sometimes the mud appears from nowhere, just through poor
attributions and excessive snipping (removing the context). For
purely technical comments, it's less important, but for opinions
it's vital to know who's actually saying what.

> > > This is more or less my situation. After a detour through Gnome I
> > > finally came back to fvwm, and glad I did.

Never left fvwm in two decades!

> > Ah, that's the thing. They give you mutter (it's a GNOME thing) and they
> > give you weston (a reference 'window manager').
> > Both lose in usability to my openbox setup.
> 
> Hey. It's free software. Shouldn't we be rather saying "we give
> ourselves [2] this and that?" Who's "they" anyway
> 
> Now let me step down from my soapbox.

I agree. We have to accept that we depend on people scratching their
itch, and we can't dictate to them, only suggest, help or persuade.
Or even just help other users to realise they need time to change
things. In the case in point, I feel sure that the people who
developed synaptic will think about how to separate privileges so
that the well-liked GUI can run as a user, communicating with a
administrative daemon that does the privileged work.

> [1] I'm applying some amount of Hanlon's razor here
> [2] In the reciprocal, not in the egocentric sense

Cheers,
David.

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#207517

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On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:45:07AM -0500, David Wright wrote:

[...]

> > Watch again systemd: while the default in Debian, it is perfectly
> > possible to install a Debian system without it [...]

> I've always assumed that there are Developers who, like us,
> avoid various types of software, like DEs, and so there will
> always remain possible methods of circumventihg them.

That's my take too. The point I wanted to make, though, is that
even those who voted for systemd are trying to keep SysV viable.
So my warmest thanks to them!

> > [...] That's why
> > I tend to go berserk every time I see mud being slung at them.

> Yes, but sometimes the mud appears from nowhere, just through poor
> attributions and excessive snipping (removing the context). For
> purely technical comments, it's less important, but for opinions
> it's vital to know who's actually saying what.

Some of it is definitely due to imperfect communication channels
(including their endpoints, i.e. we, humans). Some of it seems
to come with some strange lust for destruction, which I find
deeply disturbing.

[...]

> Never left fvwm in two decades!

Yah, we oldtimers :-)

[...]

> > Now let me step down from my soapbox.
> 
> I agree. We have to accept that we depend on people scratching their
> itch, and we can't dictate to them, only suggest, help or persuade.
> Or even just help other users to realise they need time to change
> things. In the case in point, I feel sure that the people who
> developed synaptic will think about how to separate privileges so
> that the well-liked GUI can run as a user, communicating with a
> administrative daemon that does the privileged work.

Thanks for your wise words. We are on the same page, it seems. As far
as synaptic is concerned, it seems the problem is being worked on
(#818366). It's a serious bug, but hey, that's what testing is for,
isn't it?

Cheers
-- tomás

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#207496

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:15:48AM +0300, Reco wrote:
>Debian project, like the most distributions, ships GNOME as a
>primary/default Desktop Envirionment. Therefore one can expect that this
>GNOME's "feature"-to-be will be included in Debian sooner or later, and
>once done the "feature" can affect other, seemingly unrelated packages.
>A synaptic comes to mind here ☺.

The decision to ship GNOME as the default desktop is regularly revisited: And
if a future GNOME release dropped X support altogether, you can be sure that
would be a factor in the re-evaluation that would follow.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#207467

> On Apr 14, 2019, at 11:03 PM, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
>> For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
>> ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop environment.
> 
> Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.
> 
>> I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
>> on my system i'd really appreciate it.
> 
> You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore. Consider
> using gnome-packagekit instead.

Or try muon.  (apt install muon)

I don’t know if it is fully wayland compatible, or if it’s just not well enough known to show up on the remover’s radar screens.

In any case, I find it’s a good substitute for synaptic.

Rick

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#207516

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Thanks everyone for all the responses. The package gnome-packagekit seems
like a good alternative for now, but ultimately I think reverting to stable
rather than testing may be the way forward for me.

Although i'm going to explore other desktop environments, too. Not sure
i'll be able to move away from MATE, though.

Lesson here is to pay attention when installing updates. Using synaptic, i
missed that synaptic itself was going to be uninstalled after updating haha.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 2:04 AM Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:

>         Hi.
>
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
> > For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three weeks
> > ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop
> environment.
>
> Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.
>
> > I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get it back
> > on my system i'd really appreciate it.
>
> You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore. Consider
> using gnome-packagekit instead.
>
> Reco
>
>

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#207527

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On Mon, 2019-04-15 at 13:10 -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
> Thanks everyone for all the responses. The package gnome-packagekit
> seems like a good alternative for now, but ultimately I think
> reverting to stable rather than testing may be the way forward for me.
> 
> Although i'm going to explore other desktop environments, too. Not
> sure i'll be able to move away from MATE, though.
> 
> Lesson here is to pay attention when installing updates. Using
> synaptic, i missed that synaptic itself was going to be uninstalled
> after updating haha.

I know I'm pretty late to this party, but it took a little time to run
down my quite different experience with Buster, Wayland, and Synaptic,
which on this system seems to me to work just fine.
The original install was on 2018/06/27, from the Stretch 9.3.0 DVD-1
image. It was pretty much a vanilla installation, with Gnome (now mostly
3.30.1)  and, it appears, Wayland (now mostly 1.16.0-1, but xwayland is
1.20.3-1).
All repository references were changed to Buster and and the system
upgraded on 2018/07/08.
Sid repositories were added on 2018/10/02 to upgrade Firefox ESR to the
later version. Buster was kept as the default target by specifying
'APT::Default-Release "buster";' in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/15preferences. I
also installed the Sid version of Chromium several months later.
It appears Synaptic was installed from the beginning and at some point
upgraded to the Sid version (presently 0.84.6, upgraded at 20:03 UDT
today from 0.84.5). 
With this configuration, synaptic works either when accessed directly
from the DE (by uprivileged user, but won't install) and from an ssh
session, started using "ssh -X -l root." I don't use things like gksu,
so can't comment on that.
Now, hearing about the correction underway, I worry a bit that what I
see as a highly workable solution will be undone and replaced by an
error message. I always have leaned strongly toward accepting
installation defaults and so learned to get along reasonably with Gnome,
several network managers that mostly work (and when they do, make setup
fairly painless), and even systemd, although I do not love it and think
sysv-init was quite ok.
Regards,Tom Dial
>  
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 2:04 AM Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> >         Hi.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:24:32AM -0400, Kieran Smyth wrote:
> > 
> > > For reasons unknown to me, synaptic uninstalled itself about three
> > weeks
> > 
> > > ago. I am using Buster on the desktop, with MATE as my desktop
> > environment.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Synaptic was removed from testing two weeks ago, see #818366.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > I like using a GUI frontend to apt, and if anyone can help me get
> > it back
> > 
> > > on my system i'd really appreciate it.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You're not supposed to use synaptic in Wayland session anymore.
> > Consider
> > 
> > using gnome-packagekit instead.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Reco
> > 
> > 
> > 

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