Groups > linux.debian.user > #207303 > unrolled thread

New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

Started by	Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com>
First post	2019-04-11 14:10 +0200
Last post	2019-04-25 13:30 +0200
Articles	20 on this page of 22 — 9 participants

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#207303 — New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-11 14:10 +0200
Subject	New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xLGGJ-6OL-5@gated-at.bofh.it>

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I'm preparing to install Win 10 and Deb 9 on a new ZaReason laptop which
has no installed OS on it.

It comes with one 120 Gb SSD as its primary drive and has an empty bay
where I will install a Samsung evo 860 1 Tb SSD.

I would like to use a live image on a large USB for preparing the disks
before installing Win 10 and then Deb 9.

Some questions:

1. What is the best filesystem (FS) to use on the USB? They usually come
with a FAT32 or exFAT FS, but I have in the past made them exFAT. As I
understand it, I believe I can just copy the Debian CD live iso image file
onto the USB and it will be found and booted from fine.

2. If a straight copy works as in question 1, is there any problem with
adding other files on the USB? I have a 64 Gb USB I would like to use for
both a live image as well as storing other files on it.

Given that I'm starting with two clean drives, my plan is to use the small
disk for Win 10 and the other for Debian and maybe have a small partition
to experiment with a BSD OS.

3. Any suggestions as to partitioning given the advantages of the new (to
me) GPT disk formats?

4. Which partitioning program is best to use? I am used to using fdisk and
parted, but I see partion manager mentioned.

Thanks so much.

Best regards,

-Tom

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#207314

From	"Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net>
Date	2019-04-11 16:30 +0200
Message-ID	<xLISd-85B-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207303

Hi,

Tom Browder wrote:
> As I
> understand it, I believe I can just copy the Debian CD live iso image file
> onto the USB and it will be found and booted from fine.

Not necessarily. The question is: found by what ?

The computer's firmware (BIOS or EFI, i assume) will ignore such an ISO 9660
image file in any filesystem.
So you would need some bootloader or EFI tool to (kindof) mount the ISO image
and to start the Linux kernel with initrd and appropriate options.

The Debian ISOs for "i386" and "amd64" are prepared for being copied
flatly onto USB sticks. This overwrites the partition table and BIOS boot
code by bytes at the start of the ISO which take over those jobs.
See
  https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb
or a bit more elaborate with backup of the stick's old state
  https://wiki.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php?title=Isohybrid#Copying_onto_USB_stick_by_shell_commands

> 2. If a straight copy works as in question 1, is there any problem with
> adding other files on the USB?

The partition table of the ISO image is intended for booting the ISO, not
so much for creating more partitions for other payload. It is possible,
though.

If you have more USB sticks at hand, use one for the ISO and the others
for extra data.
Else remove the GPT debris and create a new MBR partition as proposed in
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/01/msg00568.html

This does not answer the question which filesystem to install in the
new partition. Something that can be mounted read-write on GNU/Linux and
on MS-Windows, obviously. Just try and be prepared to try again.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#207336

From	deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-11 20:50 +0200
Message-ID	<xLMVP-241-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207303

Tom Browder wrote:

> I'm preparing to install Win 10 and Deb 9 on a new ZaReason laptop which
> has no installed OS on it.
> 
> It comes with one 120 Gb SSD as its primary drive and has an empty bay
> where I will install a Samsung evo 860 1 Tb SSD.
> 
> I would like to use a live image on a large USB for preparing the disks
> before installing Win 10 and then Deb 9.
> 

if you have network access, I would suggest to take the net version as it is
minimal and you will get all the latest packages from the network during
installation, so consequently you do not need any large usb.

> Some questions:
> 
> 1. What is the best filesystem (FS) to use on the USB? They usually come
> with a FAT32 or exFAT FS, but I have in the past made them exFAT. As I
> understand it, I believe I can just copy the Debian CD live iso image file
> onto the USB and it will be found and booted from fine.
> 

you can dd the netinstall to the usb it should work

> 2. If a straight copy works as in question 1, is there any problem with
> adding other files on the USB? I have a 64 Gb USB I would like to use for
> both a live image as well as storing other files on it.
> 

What you are thinking will not work unless you modify the partition table,
so that it may see the rest of the disk - when you do dd it will write only
the image and the rest of the drive will be not usable

I usually mount the usb and do debootstrap installation, or when you finish
the installation, you can just copy your installation to the stick and make
it bootable.

> Given that I'm starting with two clean drives, my plan is to use the small
> disk for Win 10 and the other for Debian and maybe have a small partition
> to experiment with a BSD OS.
> 

No Win10 will not be happy with 120GB - better take 300GB from the large
disk for windows and the rest for data linux, windows or both

> 3. Any suggestions as to partitioning given the advantages of the new (to
> me) GPT disk formats?
> 

might be better, but remember you have to enable it in bios before booting
the netinstall

> 4. Which partitioning program is best to use? I am used to using fdisk and
> parted, but I see partion manager mentioned.

fdisk is not suitable for GPT

gdisk - GPT fdisk text-mode partitioning tool
parted - disk partition manipulator

Basically read the debian documentation and then try to implement.

Also previously it was advised to install windows first and debian after,
but I do not know how Win10 is behaving in the context of UEFI, as far as I
understand it, the order should not matter for GPT

regards

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#207339 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date	2019-04-11 21:40 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xLNId-2B8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207336

deloptes composed on 2019-04-11 20:47 (UTC+0200):

> Tom Browder wrote:

>> Given that I'm starting with two clean drives, my plan is to use the small
>> disk for Win 10 and the other for Debian and maybe have a small partition
>> to experiment with a BSD OS.

> No Win10 will not be happy with 120GB - better take 300GB from the large
> disk for windows and the rest for data linux, windows or both

I limit Win10 system partitions to 48GB, and disable paging.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#207359

From	deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-12 10:20 +0200
Message-ID	<xLZzH-1I1-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207339

Felix Miata wrote:

>> No Win10 will not be happy with 120GB - better take 300GB from the large
>> disk for windows and the rest for data linux, windows or both
> 
> I limit Win10 system partitions to 48GB, and disable paging.

You always want to arge - but tell me how many applications or how much work
you did and for what time span - what is the grow rate of your windows 10
partition when using it on daily bases

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#207384 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date	2019-04-12 16:40 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xM5vr-5i7-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207359

deloptes composed on 2019-04-12 10:05 (UTC+0200):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>>> No Win10 will not be happy with 120GB - better take 300GB from the large
>>> disk for windows and the rest for data linux, windows or both

>> I limit Win10 system partitions to 48GB, and disable paging.

> You always want to arge - but tell me how many applications or how much work
> you did and for what time span - what is the grow rate of your windows 10
> partition when using it on daily bases

Junk accumulates according to the amount of space available for it to fill.

I've never used any version of Windows on a daily basis. It gets used only when
necessary. I'm a FOSS user. I drag the System Restore slider all the way to the
left, 2GB or so. There's no way for me to answer your "grow rate" question. YMMV.

>From https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/windows-10-specifications:

"Hard drive space: 	16 GB for 32-bit OS 32 GB for 64-bit OS"

## openSUSE 15.0 connected to my TV
# df -h (redacted)
Size  Used Avail Use% Usage
252M   20K  252M   1% WinBoot
9.6G  4.9G  4.3G  54% /
 24G  732M   23G   4% WinData
 47G   19G   29G  39% WinSys
 74G   16G   58G  21% /home
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#207389 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date	2019-04-12 18:30 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xM7dU-6o1-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207359

On Fri 12 Apr 2019 at 10:05:58 (+0200), deloptes wrote:
> Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >> No Win10 will not be happy with 120GB - better take 300GB from the large
> >> disk for windows and the rest for data linux, windows or both
> > 
> > I limit Win10 system partitions to 48GB, and disable paging.
> 
> You always want to arge - but tell me how many applications or how much work
> you did and for what time span - what is the grow rate of your windows 10
> partition when using it on daily bases

We have a laptop that was used with windows for just under four
years. Main applications are Office for excel/word/powerpoint,
Outlook for email, Coreldraw for publication figures. Disk usage
is approximately 90GB, of which the user's own files are 45GB,
in a partition of 175GB. The partition was originally 423GB,
but I carved the space for my linux system out of it.

Cheers,
David.

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#207399

From	deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-12 21:50 +0200
Message-ID	<xMals-8eG-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207389

David Wright wrote:

> We have a laptop that was used with windows for just under four
> years. Main applications are Office for excel/word/powerpoint,
> Outlook for email, Coreldraw for publication figures. Disk usage
> is approximately 90GB, of which the user's own files are 45GB,
> in a partition of 175GB. The partition was originally 423GB,
> but I carved the space for my linux system out of it.

on the company notebook I am still on windows 7. the disk is 250GB with more
applications than office and many documents, diagrams etc it is now at
~170GB

so you see 120 is not that much for windows.

At home I have a virtual machine with windows7 where I run visio mostly but
have the data on the share. I had to increase disk to 70GB recently after
seriously cleaning up.

I need to use that crap for money making ... oh and part of this 170GB is
occupied by cygwin cause you need a more or less decent shell if you have
to work with servers.

regards

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#207408 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date	2019-04-13 00:00 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xMcnf-11m-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207399

On Fri 12 Apr 2019 at 21:42:51 (+0200), deloptes wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> 
> > We have a laptop that was used with windows for just under four
> > years. Main applications are Office for excel/word/powerpoint,
> > Outlook for email, Coreldraw for publication figures. Disk usage
> > is approximately 90GB, of which the user's own files are 45GB,
> > in a partition of 175GB. The partition was originally 423GB,
> > but I carved the space for my linux system out of it.
> 
> on the company notebook I am still on windows 7. the disk is 250GB with more
> applications than office and many documents, diagrams etc it is now at
> ~170GB
> 
> so you see 120 is not that much for windows.
> 
> At home I have a virtual machine with windows7 where I run visio mostly but
> have the data on the share. I had to increase disk to 70GB recently after
> seriously cleaning up.
> 
> I need to use that crap for money making ... oh and part of this 170GB is
> occupied by cygwin cause you need a more or less decent shell if you have
> to work with servers.

Your figures are virtually meaningless without any sort of breakdown
even into what's system and what's your documents.

And mention of cygwin merely clouds the issue: you say you just need a
decent shell, and a minimal installation will give you that. OTOH, a
full implementation is a completely different kettle of fish, and I
hazard that most linux users won't be interested in it at all.

Cheers,
David.

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#207409

From	deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-13 00:10 +0200
Message-ID	<xMcwW-1ko-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207408

David Wright wrote:

> Your figures are virtually meaningless without any sort of breakdown
> even into what's system and what's your documents.
> 

yeah yeah ... use your imagination. Sqldeveloper, couple of virtual
machines, some installation packages each of which is 1-2GB and so one
Software for testing and such to be tested ... oracle DB installer ... all
kind of crap.
The point is if you want to work with this, you need more space and 120G
might be simply not enough.

> And mention of cygwin merely clouds the issue: you say you just need a
> decent shell, and a minimal installation will give you that. OTOH, a
> full implementation is a completely different kettle of fish, and I
> hazard that most linux users won't be interested in it at all.

you do not know what exactly I installed, but I installed not only minimal
shell, but X as well - no need to explain why ... it just adds to what is
already there.

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#207344 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
Date	2019-04-11 23:40 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xLPAm-3Lv-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207336

Le 11/04/2019 à 20:47, deloptes a écrit :
> 
> fdisk is not suitable for GPT

Why not ? Current versions support GPT.

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#207358

From	deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-12 10:20 +0200
Message-ID	<xLZzH-1I1-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207344

Pascal Hambourg wrote:

> Why not ? Current versions support GPT.

Thank you my fault - I have missed something

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#207374 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org>
Date	2019-04-12 14:20 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xM3jY-41O-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207358

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:07:04AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> 
> > Why not ? Current versions support GPT.
> 
> Thank you my fault - I have missed something

It changed after wheezy.

Wheezy's man page says:

       fdisk  does  not  understand GUID partition tables (GPTs) and it is not
       designed for large partitions.  In these cases, use the  more  advanced
       GNU parted(8).

Jessie's man page says:

       fdisk  is a dialog-driven program for creation and manipulation of par‐
       tition tables.  It understands GPT, MBR, Sun,  SGI  and  BSD  partition
       tables.

A lot of people are still using cached knowledge from pre-jessie days.

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#207400

From	deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-12 22:00 +0200
Message-ID	<xMav8-8i6-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207374

Greg Wooledge wrote:

> A lot of people are still using cached knowledge from pre-jessie days.

no you know at least one in the context of fdisk.

I don't know why but I got the impression it does not understand GPT. Just 2
months ago I had to partition 5TB RAID5 disk and fdisk did not work.
Perhaps it was because 5TB is too much and not because it could not handle
GPT.

thanks

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#207349 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date	2019-04-12 05:10 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xLUJH-7an-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207303

On 4/11/19 5:02 AM, Tom Browder wrote:
> I'm preparing to install Win 10 and Deb 9 on a new ZaReason laptop which
> has no installed OS on it.
> 
> It comes with one 120 Gb SSD as its primary drive and has an empty bay
> where I will install a Samsung evo 860 1 Tb SSD.

Which model zareason laptop?

Which make, model, form factor, and interface 120 GB SSD?

Which form factor and interface Samsung EVO 860 1 TB SSD?

How much RAM?

Make and model WiFi interface?

David

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#207383

From	Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com>
Date	2019-04-12 16:20 +0200
Message-ID	<xM5c6-5bE-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207349

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 10:01 PM David Christensen
<dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:

> Which model zareason laptop?
> Which make, model, form factor, and interface 120 GB SSD?
> Which form factor and interface Samsung EVO 860 1 TB SSD?
> How much RAM?
> Make and model WiFi interface?

David, here are the specs on the laptop from the purchase order (I
already have the 1 Tb SSD, specs below):

Laptop
=====
UltraLap 6440 i7
Options:
Linux Version:
No operating system
Processor:
i7-8550U
Dual Memory:
8 GB DDR4-2133
Video Card:
Intel UHD 620 (included)
M.2 SSD:
120GB M.2 SSD (included)
2.5:
—
WiFi:
Intel® Wireless AC Dual-Band (2.4/5ghz)
Bluetooth:
(included)
Battery:
6-cell (included)
AC Adapters:
1 (included)
Card Reader:
SD/MMC (included)
Webcam:
HD webcam (included)

Samsung SSD 860 EVO
==================
V-NAND SSD
SATA 6 Gb/s
size: 1 Tb
production date: 2019-02-23
5 year limited warranty
bought from Amazon

Best regards,

-Tom

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#207396 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
Date	2019-04-12 20:50 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xM9pn-7Ep-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207383

Le 12/04/2019 à 16:09, Tom Browder a écrit :
> 
> M.2 SSD:
> 120GB M.2 SSD (included)
> 
> Samsung SSD 860 EVO
> ==================
> V-NAND SSD
> SATA 6 Gb/s
> size: 1 Tb

> my plan is to use the small disk for Win 10 and the other for Debian

If the small M.2 SSD has a NVMe or AHCI interface, it may be faster than 
the big SATA SSD.

SATA is limited by the SATA protocol and link speed.
AHCI is limited by the SATA protocol and the PCIe link speed.
NVMe is limited by the PCIe link speed.

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#207402 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Thomas D Dial <tdial@acm.org>
Date	2019-04-12 22:50 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xMbhv-oc-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207349

On Thu, 2019-04-11 at 20:01 -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> On 4/11/19 5:02 AM, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I'm preparing to install Win 10 and Deb 9 on a new ZaReason laptop
> > which
> > has no installed OS on it.
> > 
> > It comes with one 120 Gb SSD as its primary drive and has an empty
> > bay
> > where I will install a Samsung evo 860 1 Tb SSD.
Detailed instructions for installation media are at

https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/amd64/ch04s03.html.en#usb-copy-isohybrid

They also apply to live-cd/live-dvd .iso media per

https://www.debian.org/CD/live/

The process (using the cp command on linux or functionally similar
commands on Windows) creates a file system that you do not have reason
to know or care about. The last one I used had a small EFI partition
(type ef) and 2.4 GB marked empty that actually contained all the data
and mount recognizes as an iso9660 file system.

Other parts of the Debian Installation Guide are likely to be useful as
well.

I can offer the following dual boot installation as a suggestive
example. This was to a HP Pavilion laptop dating from about 2011 that
has a traditional BIOS rather than EFI with the original HP setup and
Windows 10 (upgrade from Windows 7). I can't claim the procedure will
work on other equipment or EFI, but it seems reasonably likely that it
would.

In this case, I did not touch the internal disk because the HP factory
installation of Windows and various HP utilities used all four available
partitions. Instead, I installed Debian (Buster, but Stretch should not
be different in any significant way) on a 128 GB USB key, using either
the Live image mentioned above or a Netinstall .iso image put on the USB
key as described in the installation guide.

I let the installer partition the USB key that was the install target
and picked LVM, but specified distinct /, /usr/, /var, /home, and swap
partitions and left some empty space within the LVM volume group. The
installer offers a number of other options. Once partitioning was
complete, the installation was like any other Debian install, including
grub installation, which automatically found both the USB "disk" and the
internal disk with Windows.

I left the BIOS boot sequence with the USB device ahead of the internal
disk in the boot sequence, resulting in:

1. With the USB key in place, the Grub menu allowed choice of either
Debian (default) or Windows from the internal disk;

2. With the USB key removed, Windows booted normally.

There were no issues except that I seem to remember having to restore
the BIOS boot sequence after a Windows Patch Tuesday.

Regards,
Tom Dial

> 
> Which model zareason laptop?
> 
> 
> Which make, model, form factor, and interface 120 GB SSD?
> 
> 
> Which form factor and interface Samsung EVO 860 1 TB SSD?
> 
> 
> How much RAM?
> 
> 
> Make and model WiFi interface?
> 
> 
> David

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#207422 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
Date	2019-04-13 08:30 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xMkkN-67W-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207402

Le 12/04/2019 à 22:25, Thomas D Dial a écrit :
> 
> I let the installer partition the USB key that was the install target
> and picked LVM, but specified distinct /, /usr/, /var, /home, and swap

Why did you create a distinct volume for /usr ?

> partitions and left some empty space within the LVM volume group. The
> installer offers a number of other options.

The guided partitioning options do not offer to leave some empty space 
for future use in the volume group, making them mostly useless IMO.

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#207436 — Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

From	Thomas D Dial <tdial@acm.org>
Date	2019-04-14 03:40 +0200
Subject	Re: New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?
Message-ID	<xMChH-nF-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to	#207422

On Sat, 2019-04-13 at 08:26 +0200, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Le 12/04/2019 à 22:25, Thomas D Dial a écrit :
> > I let the installer partition the USB key that was the install
> > target
> > and picked LVM, but specified distinct /, /usr/, /var, /home, and
> > swap
> 
> Why did you create a distinct volume for /usr ?

A (now) bad habit brought forward from 20+ year old HP-UX admin
experience.
> 
> > partitions and left some empty space within the LVM volume group.
> > The
> > installer offers a number of other options.
> 
> The guided partitioning options do not offer to leave some empty
> space 
> for future use in the volume group, making them mostly useless IMO.

This is an excellent point. An LVM volume group without free space isn't
a lot better than a full physical disk. I don't use guided partitioning
at install because it fills the disk and the volume group and because I
don't think I need the several hundred GB /home that I recall it will
set up on the large disk or SSDs we have now.

Regards,
Tom Dial

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New dual boot laptop: Best file system for a USB live image for installation?

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