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Groups > linux.debian.user > #206946 > unrolled thread
| Started by | David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200 |
| Last post | 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 80 — 24 participants |
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'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-04 13:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-04 14:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-05 17:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 23:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 01:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 01:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-06 04:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-06 09:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-10 18:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> - 2019-04-11 00:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2019-04-11 01:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 05:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 05:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> - 2019-04-11 21:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 22:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-06 15:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-06 10:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-06 10:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 11:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> - 2019-04-06 12:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-04-06 14:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-08 14:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-06 14:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 15:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 16:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 18:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-04 21:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 20:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-04 19:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 19:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 21:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-04 22:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 22:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-04 22:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 20:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-06 05:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-06 15:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-05 21:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 22:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-05 22:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2019-04-06 01:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 08:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 08:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 09:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 12:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 12:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 12:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 13:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 13:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 14:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 13:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-05 22:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 03:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 11:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 12:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-04 15:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-05 15:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 15:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-05 17:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 19:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Charlie <taoquester@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-04 14:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 16:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-05 14:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2019-04-05 20:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-05 21:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 15:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJTf4-4Bi-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207064 |
On Friday 05 April 2019 22:39:23 David Wright wrote: > On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 17:01:33 (-0400), Lee wrote: > > On 4/5/19, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote: > > >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo > > >> > (which is the default combo starting with Buster). > > >> > > >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop > > >> choice. > > > > > > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the > > > solution, punishing all other supported architectures seems > > > extreme. > > > > That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only > > a problem with some desktops? > > > > https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland > > Unsupported Desktop environments: > > Cinnamon: discussed > > MATE: planned, source (2014) > > XFCE: planned > > > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is > > installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to > > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and > > quit? > > I think a better solution would be what's suggested in message #60 > of the bug report: > > "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not > possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:] > that would remove Wayland?" > > This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be > possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages > files for the architectures affected. > > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a > > bit much. > I 110% agree. > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way > because there are plenty of alternatives. Name a Good One! I don't believe you can, and be nameing one the rest of us can agree is a good substitute for it. One that works as well as or better than synaptic. > I'd never heard of it until > a few people started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using > it myself on X except as an ordinary user. > That David, I think would be your mistake, for not experienceing a package manager that for 99.99% of the job, Just Works. Lots of people here will defend aptitude, but I've had aptitude totally destroy my systems 3 times now, IMNSHO it should come with big warning labels, and a chance to abort it when you hit the g, because once its started to do what it thinks is best, and it doesn't always tell you what else its going to rip out because of perceived interdependencies, it is totally unresponsive to anything but the power switch. In short, aptitude can be extremely dangerous to anyone who /thinks/ its a good package manager. > Cheers, > David. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xL5ea-8Q-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207076 |
On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 09:00:14 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote: > On Friday 05 April 2019 22:39:23 David Wright wrote: > > On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 17:01:33 (-0400), Lee wrote: > > > On 4/5/19, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote: > > > >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo > > > >> > (which is the default combo starting with Buster). > > > >> > > > >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop > > > >> choice. > > > > > > > > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the > > > > solution, punishing all other supported architectures seems > > > > extreme. > > > > > > That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only > > > a problem with some desktops? > > > > > > https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland > > > Unsupported Desktop environments: > > > Cinnamon: discussed > > > MATE: planned, source (2014) > > > XFCE: planned > > > > > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is > > > installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to > > > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and > > > quit? > > > > I think a better solution would be what's suggested in message #60 > > of the bug report: > > > > "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not > > possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:] > > that would remove Wayland?" > > > > This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be > > possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages > > files for the architectures affected. > > > > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a > > > bit much. > > > I 110% agree. > > > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way > > because there are plenty of alternatives. > > Name a Good One! I don't believe you can, and be nameing one the rest of > us can agree is a good substitute for it. One that works as well as or > better than synaptic. They're all good in their own ways. I don't know who "the rest of us" is, nor who should pass judgment on them. > > I'd never heard of it until > > a few people started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using > > it myself on X except as an ordinary user. > > > That David, I think would be your mistake, for not experienceing a > package manager that for 99.99% of the job, Just Works. Lots of people > here will defend aptitude, but I've had aptitude totally destroy my > systems 3 times now, IMNSHO it should come with big warning labels, and > a chance to abort it when you hit the g, because once its started to do > what it thinks is best, and it doesn't always tell you what else its > going to rip out because of perceived interdependencies, it is totally > unresponsive to anything but the power switch. In short, aptitude can be > extremely dangerous to anyone who /thinks/ its a good package manager. I thought we'd determined that something was messed up in your terminal definitions back in June 2016, as you were also complaining about massive screen corruption in aptitude at that time, which no one else was reporting. In which case, it was never clear to what questions were actually posed when you were answering g and q. Cheers, David.
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 10:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJOyJ-1Gu-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207055 |
On 2019-04-05, Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote: > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is > installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit? > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit much. > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people rely on the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like simplicity comforts me. Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running as root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in Debian AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not). There are those uncomfortable with the command line, sometimes even to the point of panic, so not having a GUI alternative to such a critical piece of software might be devastating for some. Then again, this is all a matter of supposition on my part, and as I don't see much genuine devastation in this thread, maybe I'm wrong.
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 10:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJPbs-1TX-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207067 |
On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 08:07:41 -0000 (UTC) Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote: > On 2019-04-05, Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is > > installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to > > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and > > quit? > > > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a > > bit much. > > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people rely > on the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like > simplicity comforts me. > > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running > as root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in > Debian AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not). > There are those uncomfortable with the command line, sometimes even > to the point of panic, so not having a GUI alternative to such a > critical piece of software might be devastating for some. > > Then again, this is all a matter of supposition on my part, and as I > don't see much genuine devastation in this thread, maybe I'm wrong. > There are other reasons. I generally use aptitude on sid, but every now and then, there's an upgrade that wants to remove ninety packages because part of gcc/gtk/kf5/perl/whatever is going to be upgraded, but not all of it is ready. I generally switch to Synaptic, as I can then quickly find out which packages can be upgraded without devastation, and just leave the problematic ones. Yes, it can be done in aptitude. No, it cannot be done as quickly, or at least I can't do it as quickly. And there was one occasion when I managed to upgrade everything with Synaptic, that it was just a matter of doing the upgrades in batches in the right order. Aptitude is normally good at that kind of thing, but not when a hundred packages need to be done in stages. I also find Synaptic easier when I'm searching for a package to do a particular job. Again, aptitude can do that, but I find it more difficult. If there was no point to using a GUI, it would never have been invented, and we'd still be on the command line for everything. My server is command-line only, but I don't use that for working, just admin. -- Joe
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| From | David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 11:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJPl8-1Xu-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207067 |
On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote: > > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people rely on > the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like simplicity > comforts me. Speaking in very broad terms to make a general and somewhat obvious point, we could say that Gnome and synaptic are examples of tools written by experts to assist lower-expertise users. It follows that most more-expert users (apart from the developers) tend not to use these kind of tools themselves. So support channels like this one and IRC tend to lack people who are able to answer questions based on their own use of these tools, because they don't use, or even care about, these kind of tools. I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for Debian that all the newbie questioners are using. Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the answer :) This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian. > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running as > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in Debian > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not). If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the thread ... On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 00:02, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them. https://packages.debian.org/buster/gnome-packagekit https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-packagekit/stable/intro.html.en I know nothing about it, I never tried it :) I prefer using shell tools for package management. I certainly do use some GUI tools. 'meld' for example, for side-by-side diffs. If that was dropped from buster then I would notice :)
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| From | Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 12:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJQTU-2ZW-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207069 |
On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 19:56 +1100, David wrote: > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote: > > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people > > rely on > > the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like > > simplicity > > comforts me. > > Speaking in very broad terms to make a general and somewhat > obvious point, we could say that Gnome and synaptic are examples of > tools written by experts to assist lower-expertise users. > > It follows that most more-expert users (apart from the developers) > tend > not to use these kind of tools themselves. So support channels like > this one > and IRC tend to lack people who are able to answer questions based > on their own use of these tools, because they don't use, or even care > about, these kind of tools. > > I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions > about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the > channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more > sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for > Debian > that all the newbie questioners are using. > > Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the > answer :) > This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian. > > > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app > > running as > > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in > > Debian > > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not). > > If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the > thread ... > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 00:02, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The > > thing > > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them. > > https://packages.debian.org/buster/gnome-packagekit > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-packagekit/stable/intro.html.en > > I know nothing about it, I never tried it :) > I prefer using shell tools for package management. > > I certainly do use some GUI tools. 'meld' for example, for side-by- > side > diffs. If that was dropped from buster then I would notice :) > Lets take a look at installing gnome-packagekit and dependencies in Buster; Retrieving bug reports... Done Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done serious bugs of unattended-upgrades (→ 1.11) <Outstanding> b2 - #905877 - regression in 1.4: upgrades random packages from testing to experimental (doesn't respect pinning?) Summary: unattended-upgrades(1 bug) Then again perhaps not just yet
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xL5e9-8Q-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207071 |
On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 11:35:08 (+0100), Dominic Knight wrote: > On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 19:56 +1100, David wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote: > > > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people > > > rely on > > > the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like > > > simplicity > > > comforts me. > > > > Speaking in very broad terms to make a general and somewhat > > obvious point, we could say that Gnome and synaptic are examples of > > tools written by experts to assist lower-expertise users. > > > > It follows that most more-expert users (apart from the developers) > > tend > > not to use these kind of tools themselves. So support channels like > > this one > > and IRC tend to lack people who are able to answer questions based > > on their own use of these tools, because they don't use, or even care > > about, these kind of tools. > > > > I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions > > about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the > > channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more > > sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for > > Debian > > that all the newbie questioners are using. > > > > Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the > > answer :) > > This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian. > > > > > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app > > > running as > > > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in > > > Debian > > > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not). > > > > If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the > > thread ... > > > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 00:02, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The > > > thing > > > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them. > > > > https://packages.debian.org/buster/gnome-packagekit > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-packagekit/stable/intro.html.en > > > > I know nothing about it, I never tried it :) > > I prefer using shell tools for package management. > > > > I certainly do use some GUI tools. 'meld' for example, for side-by- > > side > > diffs. If that was dropped from buster then I would notice :) > > > Lets take a look at installing gnome-packagekit and dependencies in > Buster; > > Retrieving bug reports... Done > Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done > serious bugs of unattended-upgrades (→ 1.11) <Outstanding> > b2 - #905877 - regression in 1.4: upgrades random packages from > testing to experimental (doesn't respect pinning?) > Summary: > unattended-upgrades(1 bug) > > > Then again perhaps not just yet I'm not sure unattended-upgrades is wise for buster. But I'm happy that there are people who are prepared to test testing with such packages. OTOH unattended downloads are a different matter. I have 0 */3 * * * apt-get -qq update && apt-get -qq -d upgrade && find /var/cache/apt/archives/ -name '*deb' in root's crontab which also sends an email whenever packages are sitting in the cache. (My .bash_profile also checks that.) Cheers, David.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 14:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJSj0-40m-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207069 |
On Saturday, April 06, 2019 04:56:22 AM David wrote: > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote: > Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the answer > :) This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian. > > > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running as > > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in Debian > > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not). > > If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the thread I use apper in Wheezy (iirc, it came pre-installed and set up to run on boot). The nice feature (for me) is that it tells me when upgrades are available, and works well for simple upgrades. (When I have something more complicated to do (or maybe just by habit), I use apt-get.) Apper was pre-installed on Jessie and set up to run on boot, but is not set up properly -- it does not have root permission to actually install anything -- it notifies me when upgrades are available and then I use apt-get to install them. Now that I know about kdesudo, I might try to run apper under kdesudo and see if that solves the problem. If synaptic, as somebody else has mentioned, helps with more complicated upgrades (where maybe lots of packages have to be removed and then (I hope) reinstalled, I might give synaptic a try.
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJT5o-4in-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207072 |
On 2019-04-06, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote: > > If synaptic, as somebody else has mentioned, helps with more complicated > upgrades (where maybe lots of packages have to be removed and then (I hope) > reinstalled, I might give synaptic a try. So as far as GUI package managers go in Debian, there's synaptic (APT front-end), apper, and gnome-packagekit, the latter two being front-ends to packagekit, a daemon, which is a front-end itself (back-ended by APTcc in Debian, though actually agnostic distribution-wise and therefore back-end-wise, too, I guess)?
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| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-08 14:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xKBzr-6y5-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207069 |
On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 07:56:22PM +1100, David wrote: > I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions > about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the > channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more > sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for Debian > that all the newbie questioners are using. > > Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the answer :) This. I've pointed it out myself, more than once. However, "more sophisticated" is not really the target for people like me. It's more like "simpler", or "more traditional", or "leaner", or "what we're used to", depending on the actual person. I'm sure GNOME provides way more features than my chosen window manager does. But I don't need or want those features. I like my WM. I understand how it works, and I know how to customize it exactly to my preferences. It doesn't launch dozens of useless processes to hog resources, it doesn't blow up if my video driver/firmware aren't perfect, and it doesn't introduce completely new and surprising ways to screw me over on a periodic basis.
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| From | Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 14:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJSVH-4ec-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207055 |
On Fri, 2019-04-05 at 17:01 -0400, Lee wrote: > That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only > a problem with some desktops? In fact, it's not even a problem on Gnome + Wayland, as you should be able to run Synaptic as root with XWayland and the “right” xhost setting (requires a small shell script to start Synaptic that way). -- Jan Claeys (please don't CC me when replying to the list)
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| From | Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 15:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJahX-1KI-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206952 |
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote: > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages > > > before. > > > > Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to > > be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome is considered > > (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both > without a single hiccup for years... The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 from #818366. The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them. Reco
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 16:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJbnI-2nL-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206956 |
On Thursday 04 April 2019 09:02:13 Reco wrote: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote: > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to > > > repositories > > > > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular > > > > packages before. > > > > > > Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for > > > it to be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome is > > > considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. > > > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using > > both without a single hiccup for years... > > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 > from #818366. > > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them. > > Reco I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work. If it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the users. If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff luck. This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not recently demonstrated that. All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to getting anything useful done. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 18:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJcWt-3bv-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206959 |
Hi. On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 10:15:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > On Thursday 04 April 2019 09:02:13 Reco wrote: > > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing > > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them. > > I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work. Quite the contrary. To get users it just needs to be written by a certain company. Three-letter acronym company, to be specific. > If it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the > users. "gnome-packagekit" touts itself as a "Graphical distribution neutral package manager for GNOME". There are other distributions where users don't have the alternative. But once again, Debian project choose to follow so called "industry leaders". > If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff > luck. This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not > recently demonstrated that. Please be careful. There are GNOME users here, at this list. Someone might get offended :) > All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to getting anything useful > done. This one is for the buster users. Stretch isn't affected. Reco
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 21:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJgdI-5ls-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206965 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:58:20PM +0300, Reco wrote: [...] > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 10:15:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: [...] > > If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff > > luck. This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not > > recently demonstrated that. > > Please be careful. There are GNOME users here, at this list. Someone > might get offended :) Not a Gnome user here, by a long shot. But still a bit weary of the negative tone of you both. There are folks there at bug #818366 trying to find a solution -- why not chime in and help out? This is, you know, a collaborative project. Cheers -- t
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| From | Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 20:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJYeJ-7wu-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206959 |
On 4/4/19 10:15 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: > I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work. If > it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the > users. If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, > tuff luck. This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not > recently demonstrated that. All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to > getting anything useful done. Amen. Another reason that I use XFCE :) Ric
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 19:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJevf-4dM-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206956 |
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300 Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote: > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to > > > repositories > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular > > > > packages before. > > > > > > Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen > > > for it to be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome > > > is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. > > > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been > > using both without a single hiccup for years... > > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 > from #818366. > I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo. -- Joe
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| From | Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 19:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJeEV-4hh-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206970 |
Hi. On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:36:32PM +0100, Joe wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300 > Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote: > > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to > > > > repositories > > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular > > > > > packages before. > > > > > > > > Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen > > > > for it to be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome > > > > is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. > > > > > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been > > > using both without a single hiccup for years... > > > > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland > > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 > > from #818366. > > > I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec > invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with > policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo. ... and in Wayland session it's either policykit or nothing. Thing's designed to be single-user only. As #818366 shows, synaptic's usage of policykit is 'improper', and that's not even counting certain X11 calls (which do not work in Wayland for obvious reasons). In short, Wayland is upon us. Reco
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 21:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJgx3-5sv-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206971 |
On Thursday 04 April 2019 13:45:52 Reco wrote: > Hi. > > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:36:32PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300 > > > > Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > > > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to > > > > > repositories > > > > > > > > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular > > > > > > packages before. > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen > > > > > for it to be re-instated. However, not working properly in > > > > > Gnome is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. > > > > > > > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been > > > > using both without a single hiccup for years... > > > > > > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland > > > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 > > > from #818366. > > > > I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec > > invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with > > policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo. > > ... and in Wayland session it's either policykit or nothing. Thing's > designed to be single-user only. > As #818366 shows, synaptic's usage of policykit is 'improper', and > that's not even counting certain X11 calls (which do not work in > Wayland for obvious reasons). > > In short, Wayland is upon us. > > Reco The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland. This is after all a multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the way to make it work like win-3.0? Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 22:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJgGJ-5wA-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206990 |
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland. This is after all a > multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the way > to make it work like win-3.0? The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security model. As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague Wayland documentation I've seen so far. I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to run the graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process that runs as root which can install and remove packages. That second process could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind. Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work. I would not describe this solution as "simple". Maybe you had a different solution in mind.
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