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booting

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  booting Thakur Mahashaya <thmsh@yandex.ru> - 2018-09-16 13:10 +0200
    Re: booting Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2018-09-16 13:40 +0200
    Re: booting mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 14:00 +0200
      Re: booting mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-09-16 17:10 +0200
        Re: booting Thakur Mahashaya <thmsh@yandex.ru> - 2018-09-17 13:30 +0200
          Installing from live, was Re: booting David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-09-17 15:20 +0200
            Re: Installing from live, was Re: booting Thakur Mahashaya <thmsh@yandex.ru> - 2018-09-17 17:10 +0200
              Re: Installing from live, was Re: booting mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-09-17 18:30 +0200
              Re: Installing from live, was Re: booting David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-09-17 19:10 +0200
                Re: Installing from live "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-17 19:40 +0200
                  Re: Installing from live David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-09-18 00:00 +0200
                  Re: Installing from live Rick Thomas <rbthomas@pobox.com> - 2018-09-18 11:50 +0200
                    Re: Installing from live "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-18 13:30 +0200
                      Re: Installing from live David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-09-18 16:40 +0200
                        Re: Installing from live "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-18 18:30 +0200
                          Re: Installing from live David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-09-19 17:40 +0200
                            Re: Installing from live "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-19 19:20 +0200
                              Re: Installing from live David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-09-22 06:20 +0200

#200193 — booting

Hello dears! 
Tell me, please, when the system is booted over the network, is it enough to simply Internet via modem? Do I need to install an additional program on a flash drive? Where is the checksum for the image that is in the upper right corner of the official site? Thanks so much.....

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#200195

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 02:05:37PM +0300, Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> Hello dears! 
> Tell me, please, when the system is booted over the network, is it
> enough to simply Internet via modem? Do I need to install an
> additional program on a flash drive? Where is the checksum for the
> image that is in the upper right corner of the official site?
> Thanks so much.....

Your question is a little ambiguous.

Are you asking, when you download say an ISO image (to do an
installation), and you want to verify the checksum of that .iso file?
(And if this is the case, do you now have a running system, and what
is that system - e.g. are you sending email using a Debian install?)

Or are you booting over ethernet, say from a tftp server?

That's a big difference - let us know what you are doing, then may be
someone can assist properly.

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#200196

On 2018-09-16 12:05, Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> Hello dears!
> Tell me, please, when the system is booted over the network, is it
> enough to simply Internet via modem? Do I need to install an
> additional program on a flash drive? Where is the checksum for the
> image that is in the upper right corner of the official site? Thanks
> so much.....

I think I see.
If there is a checksum you are supposed to download the file and then 
install it locally.
Checksum is made by a program that examines the file and outputs numbers 
which only that file will produce.
To ensure that you download exactly the same file you have the same 
program on your PC which examines the downloaded file and if the numbers 
are the same then file is good.

checksum is produced md5 or sha-2 format
md5sum is available for windows, not sure about sha-2
I think I used Cygwin last time I did that.

mick

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#200203

On 2018-09-16 12:52, mick crane wrote:
> On 2018-09-16 12:05, Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
>> Hello dears!
>> Tell me, please, when the system is booted over the network, is it
>> enough to simply Internet via modem? Do I need to install an
>> additional program on a flash drive? Where is the checksum for the
>> image that is in the upper right corner of the official site? Thanks
>> so much.....
> 
> I think I see.
> If there is a checksum you are supposed to download the file and then
> install it locally.
> Checksum is made by a program that examines the file and outputs
> numbers which only that file will produce.
> To ensure that you download exactly the same file you have the same
> program on your PC which examines the downloaded file and if the
> numbers are the same then file is good.
> 
> checksum is produced md5 or sha-2 format
> md5sum is available for windows, not sure about sha-2
> I think I used Cygwin last time I did that.
> 
> mick
Ok in windows there is CertUtil

CertUtil -hashfile downloaded.iso md5

CertUtil -hashfile downloaded.iso sha256

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#200214

Hi, everybody...
Now I have Debian 9 ......I installed it like this https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-9.5.0-amd64-gnome.iso
but it is possible and through the network. 
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-9.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
is it better?

16.09.2018, 18:06, "mick crane" <mick.crane@gmail.com>:
> On 2018-09-16 12:52, mick crane wrote:
>>  On 2018-09-16 12:05, Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
>>>  Hello dears!
>>>  Tell me, please, when the system is booted over the network, is it
>>>  enough to simply Internet via modem? Do I need to install an
>>>  additional program on a flash drive? Where is the checksum for the
>>>  image that is in the upper right corner of the official site? Thanks
>>>  so much.....
>>
>>  I think I see.
>>  If there is a checksum you are supposed to download the file and then
>>  install it locally.
>>  Checksum is made by a program that examines the file and outputs
>>  numbers which only that file will produce.
>>  To ensure that you download exactly the same file you have the same
>>  program on your PC which examines the downloaded file and if the
>>  numbers are the same then file is good.
>>
>>  checksum is produced md5 or sha-2 format
>>  md5sum is available for windows, not sure about sha-2
>>  I think I used Cygwin last time I did that.
>>
>>  mick
>
> Ok in windows there is CertUtil
>
> CertUtil -hashfile downloaded.iso md5
>
> CertUtil -hashfile downloaded.iso sha256
>
> --
> Key ID 4BFEBB31

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#200220 — Installing from live, was Re: booting

On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 14:22:32 (+0300), Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> Hi, everybody...
> Now I have Debian 9 ......I installed it like this https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-9.5.0-amd64-gnome.iso
> but it is possible and through the network. 
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-9.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> is it better?

It's generally recommended on this list that you install from netinst
rather than from a live system.

Cheers,
David.

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#200227 — Re: Installing from live, was Re: booting

Dear David, if you do not complicate, then tell me why the network is better?

17.09.2018, 16:18, "David Wright" <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>:
> On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 14:22:32 (+0300), Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
>>  Hi, everybody...
>>  Now I have Debian 9 ......I installed it like this https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-9.5.0-amd64-gnome.iso
>>  but it is possible and through the network.
>>  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-9.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>  is it better?
>
> It's generally recommended on this list that you install from netinst
> rather than from a live system.
>
> Cheers,
> David.

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#200229 — Re: Installing from live, was Re: booting

On 2018-09-17 16:01, Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> Dear David, if you do not complicate, then tell me why the network is 
> better?
> 


https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/

If unfamiliar perhaps you want to run live to see what software you want

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#200231 — Re: Installing from live, was Re: booting

On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 18:01:29 (+0300), Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> Dear David, if you do not complicate, then tell me why the network is better?

I follow this list, and keep an eye on others' reported problems;
nothing too specific because they often involve things that will
probably not concern my machines (most are old). You're welcome to
search the archives of this list https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
if you like.

But with the binary choice you gave, it's clear that netinst should
give fewer problems. However, I do always use the firmware version at
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
(last time I looked).

> 17.09.2018, 16:18, "David Wright" <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>:
> > On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 14:22:32 (+0300), Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> >>  Hi, everybody...
> >>  Now I have Debian 9 ......I installed it like this https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/debian-live-9.5.0-amd64-gnome.iso
> >>  but it is possible and through the network.
> >>  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-9.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> >>  is it better?
> >
> > It's generally recommended on this list that you install from netinst
> > rather than from a live system.

Cheers,
David.

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#200232 — Re: Installing from live

Hi,

David Wright wrote:
> > > It's generally recommended on this list that you install from netinst
> > > rather than from a live system.

Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> > tell me why the network is better?

David Wright wrote:
> I follow this list, and keep an eye on others' reported problems;

Indeed, we had some failure reports with "live" of Debian 8 (iirc).
For a short while the advise of makers of "live" was "do not use for
installation".
But all known problems seem to be fixed. At least the download page
does not mention them any more:
  https://www.debian.org/CD/live/
The images are still named "live install". If the installation feature
was untrusted, i'd expect the word "install" to be removed.

Whatever, both "live" and "netinst" do not contain most of the Debian
packages. When you need to install some further packages, this will be
done via the internet.

So if Thakur's installation works fine so far, there is not much
difference to expect with an installation from "netinst".

"netinst" is supposed to be used by more people for installing than
"live", and it is the much smaller download.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200243 — Re: Installing from live

On Mon 17 Sep 2018 at 19:36:24 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> David Wright wrote:
> > > > It's generally recommended on this list that you install from netinst
> > > > rather than from a live system.
> 
> Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> > > tell me why the network is better?
> 
> David Wright wrote:
> > I follow this list, and keep an eye on others' reported problems;
> 
> Indeed, we had some failure reports with "live" of Debian 8 (iirc).
> For a short while the advise of makers of "live" was "do not use for
> installation".

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/07/msg00936.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/07/msg00965.html

> But all known problems seem to be fixed. At least the download page
> does not mention them any more:
>   https://www.debian.org/CD/live/
> The images are still named "live install". If the installation feature
> was untrusted, i'd expect the word "install" to be removed.

Yes, I'm not claiming that it can't be done, nor that it is difficult,
but just that I've read more posts where difficulties were reported by
users. By definition, my opinion is based on hearsay, and as I'm not
motivated or organised enough to index my collection of posts, it's
not worth my time to spend it searching around for references.

As we were given a binary choice, mine was obviously for netinst.
Others are welcome to post their disagreement. But I can't recall
seeing a preference for installing from live media expressed here.

> Whatever, both "live" and "netinst" do not contain most of the Debian
> packages. When you need to install some further packages, this will be
> done via the internet.
> 
> So if Thakur's installation works fine so far, there is not much
> difference to expect with an installation from "netinst".
> 
> "netinst" is supposed to be used by more people for installing than
> "live", and it is the much smaller download.

Cheers,
David.

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#200259 — Re: Installing from live

On Sep 17, 2018, at 10:36 AM, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> "netinst" is supposed to be used by more people for installing than
> "live", and it is the much smaller download.

Indeed, the fact that it is a smaller download is the main reason why netinst is preferred.  It’s a good thing to minimize the load on the official Debian FTP servers by shifting the bandwidth to the network of mirrors.  It also avoids downloading packages that you don’t actually need for your particular installation.

That’s the most common use case, and so it’s the most commonly recommended approach.

However, there are lots of use cases where that argument doesn’t work.

For example, if your home has limited Internet bandwidth, but you can drive to a library (or your place of work) where the bandwidth is better, it might be better to use the DVD or BD (blue-ray) install image on a USB stick.  In this case, you probably want to download the install image with jigdo or bittorrent, since they distribute the bandwidth requirement over the network of volunteer servers and so minimize the load on the official Debian FTP servers.

As another example, if this is your first excursion into Linux-land, you probably want to download a “Live” image that you can experiment with.  You can then run jigdo or bittorrent on the “live” setup to download the CD/DVD/BD install images you need for your first permanent installation.  If the “Live” image also supports installing to your hard drive, that might let you avoid downloading a second install image at all.

Hope that helps!
Rick

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#200264 — Re: Installing from live

Hi,

Rick Thomas wrote:
> For example, if your home has limited Internet bandwidth, but you can drive
> to a library (or your place of work) where the bandwidth is better, it might
> be better to use the DVD or BD (blue-ray) install image on a USB stick.

Yeah. But will a public or workplace machine be able to run Jigdo ?
Afaik, only Jigdo can get you BD sized ISOs or the full set of 14 DVDs.
The other download paths offer at most the first 3 DVD images.


> run jigdo [...] on the “live” setup to download the
> CD/DVD/BD install images

That's not totally trivial. I wrote an article about it:
  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive

It mainly lacks hints for those who want to mount their MS-Windows
disk and let Debian Live's Jigdo store the download on that disk.

Proof reading and additional knowledge about MS-Windows or MacOS would
be really appreciated.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200275 — Re: Installing from live

On Tue 18 Sep 2018 at 13:21:31 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Rick Thomas wrote:
> > For example, if your home has limited Internet bandwidth, but you can drive
> > to a library (or your place of work) where the bandwidth is better, it might
> > be better to use the DVD or BD (blue-ray) install image on a USB stick.
> 
> Yeah. But will a public or workplace machine be able to run Jigdo ?
> Afaik, only Jigdo can get you BD sized ISOs or the full set of 14 DVDs.
> The other download paths offer at most the first 3 DVD images.

One could also save petrol and have a physical DVD delivered to one's
mailbox for less than $/£10. (And support your mail carrier.)

> > run jigdo [...] on the “live” setup to download the
> > CD/DVD/BD install images
> 
> That's not totally trivial. I wrote an article about it:
>   https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive
> 
> It mainly lacks hints for those who want to mount their MS-Windows
> disk and let Debian Live's Jigdo store the download on that disk.
> 
> Proof reading and additional knowledge about MS-Windows or MacOS would
> be really appreciated.

One of the main reasons I mount all the "foreign" partitions readonly
(both NTFS and FAT) is in case Windows wasn't shut down with its
filesystems fully synced and unmounted. That's also why I used
Windows's tools to shrink its filesystems and partitions before I
installed linux on this PC in the first place. But I accept that many
people are less cautious.

Cheers,
David.

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#200277 — Re: Installing from live

Hi,

David Wright wrote:
> I mount all the "foreign" partitions readonly (both NTFS and FAT)

That's a wise move in general, of course.
But if you are downloading a BD sized ISO of 20+ GiB, then RAM based
"disk" storage might be too small.

As soon as the ISO is composed from template file and Debian packages
by Jigdo, it may be burnt to a BD medium. But Jigdo needs a file path
where to inflate its template file to full ISO size.


> I used Windows's tools to shrink its filesystems and partitions

Well, that would be an invasive way to use the real disk of the MS-Windows
machine. Also i expect it to need more GNU/Linux knowledge than we can
expect, when it comes to making the free space usable by the Live system.

Nevertheless, if you have a tangible proposal as alternative to

  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Get_access_to_a_writable_disk_filesystem

i am interested to see it.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200302 — Re: Installing from live

On Tue 18 Sep 2018 at 18:25:53 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> > I mount all the "foreign" partitions readonly (both NTFS and FAT)
> 
> That's a wise move in general, of course.
> But if you are downloading a BD sized ISO of 20+ GiB, then RAM based
> "disk" storage might be too small.
> 
> As soon as the ISO is composed from template file and Debian packages
> by Jigdo, it may be burnt to a BD medium. But Jigdo needs a file path
> where to inflate its template file to full ISO size.

Sure, but a 32GB USB stick is now to be had for $10. Would that
be suitable?

> > I used Windows's tools to shrink its filesystems and partitions
> 
> Well, that would be an invasive way to use the real disk of the MS-Windows
> machine. Also i expect it to need more GNU/Linux knowledge than we can
> expect, when it comes to making the free space usable by the Live system.
> 
> Nevertheless, if you have a tangible proposal as alternative to
> 
>   https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Get_access_to_a_writable_disk_filesystem
> 
> i am interested to see it.

That second sentence was really an aside. My main point is snipped
here, ie "in case Windows wasn't shut down with its filesystems fully
synced and unmounted".

What I was envisaging was a windows user closing down, booting up a
USB stick's live Debian and corrupting their windows disk by using
it to store ISO files.

https://www.howtogeek.com/243901/the-pros-and-cons-of-windows-10s-fast-startup-mode/

The reason I was being invasive (on windows's terms) is because, as I
explained at the end of another thread¹, I was making room for a new
Debian system on the laptop. I wasn't exhorting people to repartition
their disk for workspace, but just warning that writing to windows
partitions from a foreign OS can be unwise unless you're sure the disk
is fully unmounted.

¹
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00468.html

Cheers,
David.

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#200306 — Re: Installing from live

Hi,

> Sure, but a 32GB USB stick is now to be had for $10. Would that
> be suitable?

Well, it is an extra precondition. Maybe the USB stick is already planned
to finally hold the boot-ready ISO image.

Whatever, if an extra USB stick without valuable data is at hand, this
seems to be a viable way to get buffer space without altering the local
disks. I wonder what partitioning can be expected on a typical MS-Windows
user's USB sticks.
Re-partitioning would need extra instructions, probably depending on the
live desktop that was started.

It would be really useful, if jigdo-lite could be talked into working
directly on the USB stick which shall later be used for booting.
But it insists in creating a new file with the name of the ISO image.

Its slave, jigdo-file has an option to set the ISO image name.
But it's too much C++ to show me where it opens the result file and what
it expects of it.

  https://sources.debian.org/src/jigdo/0.7.3-5/src/mkimage.cc/#L903
is my main suspect:
    imgDel.reset(new bfstream(name, ios::binary|ios::out|ios::trunc));
Shrug.


> What I was envisaging was a windows user closing down, booting up a
> USB stick's live Debian and corrupting their windows disk by using
> it to store ISO files.

By what words could i warn MS-Windows users of this pitfall ?
Any proposals ?


> The reason I was being invasive (on windows's terms) is because, as I
> explained at the end of another thread¹, I was making room for a new
> Debian system on the laptop.

That, plus making an own fileystem, would probably avoid problems with
MS-Windows filesystems by writing to them from live Debian.
Well, with the USB stick proposal we have something similar which does
not leave permanent changes on the MS-Windows disks.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200409 — Re: Installing from live

On Wed 19 Sep 2018 at 19:16:29 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> > What I was envisaging was a windows user closing down, booting up a
> > USB stick's live Debian and corrupting their windows disk by using
> > it to store ISO files.
> 
> By what words could i warn MS-Windows users of this pitfall ?
> Any proposals ?

As I'm not a Windows user¹, I'm probably not the best person to put my
worries into the vocabulary that a W~ user would employ. But perhaps
something along the lines of:

Windows can close down leaving the disk partitions in a state that
assumes they will not be modified before Windows is next rebooted.
Booting a linux system and mounting those partitions (other than as
readonly) could lead to disk corruption that might be difficult to
recover from.
You need to ensure that Windows is fully closed down before using
space on its partitions for writing files. See
https://www.howtogeek.com/243901/the-pros-and-cons-of-windows-10s-fast-startup-mode/

Something like that. There might be a better reference. A Windows user
might know which specific buttons or commands to use to ensure the
correct state is reached.

¹ I vaguely recall W95, which had none of these problems; just a load
of other ones.

Cheers,
David.

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