Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #201686 > unrolled thread

Online copies of textinfo content available?

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  Online copies of textinfo content available? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-10-26 16:50 +0200
    Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-26 17:10 +0200
    Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-10-26 17:10 +0200
    Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-26 17:50 +0200
    Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-26 19:30 +0200
      Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-26 20:20 +0200
        Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-27 10:20 +0200
          Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-29 17:00 +0100
            Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-11-02 05:00 +0100
        Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-10-29 07:30 +0100
      Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-26 20:20 +0200
        Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-26 20:30 +0200
          Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-26 22:00 +0200
            Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2018-10-27 00:50 +0200
      Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-10-29 07:30 +0100
    Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Dennis Wicks <wix@mgssub.com> - 2018-10-26 22:20 +0200
      Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-26 22:20 +0200
        Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Dennis Wicks <wix@mgssub.com> - 2018-10-26 22:30 +0200
      Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-26 22:30 +0200
      Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-26 23:50 +0200
        Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-27 00:10 +0200
          Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-27 00:20 +0200
            Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-27 03:40 +0200
              Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-10-27 11:10 +0200
                Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-10-27 15:30 +0200
          Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-27 01:10 +0200
        Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-10-29 07:40 +0100
          Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-29 16:30 +0100
            Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-29 21:20 +0100
            Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-10-29 21:30 +0100
              Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-29 22:00 +0100
                Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-10-29 22:20 +0100
              Re: Online copies of textinfo content available? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-10-30 09:40 +0100

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#201724

On Friday, October 26, 2018 05:39:55 PM Brian wrote:
> On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 15:13:20 -0500, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> > Richard Owlett wrote on 10/26/18 9:41 AM:
> > > Many man pages end with:
> > >> The full documentation for Ed is maintained as a Texinfo
> > >> manual. If the info > and XYZ programs are properly
> > >> installed at your site, the command
> > >> 
> > >>     info XYZ
> > >> 
> > >> should give you access to the complete manual.
> > > 
> > > I have problems with that.
> > > 1. I don't want to install unneeded packages just to find
> > > out whether or
> > >    not the package might be useful.
> > > 2. The info output has an annoying format. A browser
> > > acceptable format
> > >    {plain text fine --  HTML *NOT* needed} is MUCH more
> > > functional.
> > 
> > I agree, and I have found a lot of info "complete manual"s
> > to be exactly like the man page!
> 
> Please give an example.

I'm not the OP, and I don't have an example at hand, but I can vouch for the 
same thing, man pages and info containing the same information, modulo looking 
a little different.

It's probably been 15 years since I bothered looking at an info page -- maybe 
there are no more duplicate man and info pages -- but I don't believe that.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201725

On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 18:02:39 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, October 26, 2018 05:39:55 PM Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 15:13:20 -0500, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> > > Richard Owlett wrote on 10/26/18 9:41 AM:
> > > > Many man pages end with:
> > > >> The full documentation for Ed is maintained as a Texinfo
> > > >> manual. If the info > and XYZ programs are properly
> > > >> installed at your site, the command
> > > >> 
> > > >>     info XYZ
> > > >> 
> > > >> should give you access to the complete manual.
> > > > 
> > > > I have problems with that.
> > > > 1. I don't want to install unneeded packages just to find
> > > > out whether or
> > > >    not the package might be useful.
> > > > 2. The info output has an annoying format. A browser
> > > > acceptable format
> > > >    {plain text fine --  HTML *NOT* needed} is MUCH more
> > > > functional.
> > > 
> > > I agree, and I have found a lot of info "complete manual"s
> > > to be exactly like the man page!
> > 
> > Please give an example.
> 
> I'm not the OP, and I don't have an example at hand, but I can vouch for the 
> same thing, man pages and info containing the same information, modulo looking 
> a little different.
> 
> It's probably been 15 years since I bothered looking at an info page -- maybe 
> there are no more duplicate man and info pages -- but I don't believe that.

You can vouch for whatever you want. Without an example it is worthless.

-- 
Brian.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201730

On Friday, October 26, 2018 06:10:13 PM Brian wrote:
> On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 18:02:39 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > It's probably been 15 years since I bothered looking at an info page --
> > maybe there are no more duplicate man and info pages -- but I don't
> > believe that.
> 
> You can vouch for whatever you want. Without an example it is worthless.

What would you do with an example?

Would you modify either the man page or the info?

Would you write to the maintainer of the man page and / or info and ask them 
to modify it?  Delete something from the man page so the info page has more?

Unless you plan to do something like that, actually having an example is 
worthless.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201738

On 2018-10-27, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, October 26, 2018 06:10:13 PM Brian wrote:
>> On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 18:02:39 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>> > It's probably been 15 years since I bothered looking at an info page --
>> > maybe there are no more duplicate man and info pages -- but I don't
>> > believe that.
>> 
>> You can vouch for whatever you want. Without an example it is worthless.
>
> What would you do with an example?

I just thought of a cozy place for it.

whois
info
file
acpi

There's also the case of the (generally succinct) man page referring you
to the full documentation via the info page, the latter of which is
identical to the former, a rubbing-it-in kind of "bug" by which I've
been bitten in the past.

I can't summon an example of this frustrating insect offhand.

Jesus. Shoot me.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201747

Thanks -- two comments below!

On Saturday, October 27, 2018 05:04:37 AM Curt wrote:
> On 2018-10-27, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, October 26, 2018 06:10:13 PM Brian wrote:
> >> On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 18:02:39 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > It's probably been 15 years since I bothered looking at an info page
> >> > -- maybe there are no more duplicate man and info pages -- but I
> >> > don't believe that.
> >> 
> >> You can vouch for whatever you want. Without an example it is worthless.
> > 
> > What would you do with an example?
> 
> I just thought of a cozy place for it.

Great minds ...

> 
> whois
> info
> file
> acpi
> 
> There's also the case of the (generally succinct) man page referring you
> to the full documentation via the info page, the latter of which is
> identical to the former, a rubbing-it-in kind of "bug" by which I've
> been bitten in the past.

I remember those, also!
 
> I can't summon an example of this frustrating insect offhand.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201728

rhkramer writes:
> I'm not the OP, and I don't have an example at hand, but I can vouch
> for the same thing, man pages and info containing the same
> information, modulo looking a little different.

Not always.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201831

On 26.10.18 22:39, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 15:13:20 -0500, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> > I agree, and I have found a lot of info "complete manual"s
> > to be exactly like the man page!
> 
> Please give an example.

Anyone who has tried info a number of times, in the hope of finding a
bit more information than the manpage provides, will have experienced
the info fudge, I submit. Here's the first which I recalled:

$ info xpdf

File: *manpages*,  Node: xpdf,  Up: (dir)

xpdf(1)                                                                xpdf(1)



NAME
       xpdf - Portable Document Format (PDF) file viewer for X (version 3.03)

SYNOPSIS
       xpdf [options] [PDF-file [page | +dest]]

DESCRIPTION
       Xpdf  is a viewer for Portable Document Format (PDF) files.  (These are
       also sometimes also called 'Acrobat' files, from the  name  of  Adobe's
       PDF  software.)   Xpdf runs under the X Window System on UNIX, VMS, and
       OS/2.
...

-----Info: (*manpages*)xpdf, 781 lines --Top--------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to Info version 4.13. Type h for help, m for menu item.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201844

On Mon 29 Oct 2018 at 17:39:13 (+1100), Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 26.10.18 22:39, Brian wrote:
> > On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 15:13:20 -0500, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> > > I agree, and I have found a lot of info "complete manual"s
> > > to be exactly like the man page!
> > 
> > Please give an example.
> 
> Anyone who has tried info a number of times, in the hope of finding a
> bit more information than the manpage provides, will have experienced
> the info fudge, I submit. Here's the first which I recalled:
> 
> $ info xpdf

To be fair, the first line quoted here should be split in two and
commented on separately.

"I agree" was agreeing with the complaint of having to install extra
packages (though it wasn't made clear whether this was just info/pinfo
or foo-doc packages).

OTOH the second part, identical man and info pages, seems an
unjustifiable criticism to me. Why should info-preferers be deprived
of reading documentation in their format. The whole point of formats
like Texinfo is that they can generate several formats from a single
master document.

What Brian asked for is an example of a man page that ends with
"The full documentation for foo is maintained as a Texinfo manual"
but the   info foo   output has no more information than   man foo.
If you are determined to find such an example,
$ zgrep 'maintained as a' /usr/share/man/man[0-9]/*z | less
might be a good place to start hunting.

Cheers,
David.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201848

On Mon 29 Oct 2018 at 10:20:30 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 29 Oct 2018 at 17:39:13 (+1100), Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > On 26.10.18 22:39, Brian wrote:
> > > On Fri 26 Oct 2018 at 15:13:20 -0500, Dennis Wicks wrote:
> > > > I agree, and I have found a lot of info "complete manual"s
> > > > to be exactly like the man page!
> > > 
> > > Please give an example.
> > 
> > Anyone who has tried info a number of times, in the hope of finding a
> > bit more information than the manpage provides, will have experienced
> > the info fudge, I submit. Here's the first which I recalled:
> > 
> > $ info xpdf
> 
> To be fair, the first line quoted here should be split in two and
> commented on separately.
> 
> "I agree" was agreeing with the complaint of having to install extra
> packages (though it wasn't made clear whether this was just info/pinfo
> or foo-doc packages).
> 
> OTOH the second part, identical man and info pages, seems an
> unjustifiable criticism to me. Why should info-preferers be deprived
> of reading documentation in their format. The whole point of formats
> like Texinfo is that they can generate several formats from a single
> master document.

It is a fact that some invocations of info (or pinfo) give pages which
look like a man page. That's because it is a man page.

> What Brian asked for is an example of a man page that ends with
> "The full documentation for foo is maintained as a Texinfo manual"
> but the   info foo   output has no more information than   man foo.
> If you are determined to find such an example,
> $ zgrep 'maintained as a' /usr/share/man/man[0-9]/*z | less
> might be a good place to start hunting.

Asking for an example was probably a mistake; the respondents' brain
cell wasn't up to it. I'd suggest licences, GFDL and DFSG could be
of import.

'info info' is an example.

-- 
Brian.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201851

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 10:20:30AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>What Brian asked for is an example of a man page that ends with
>"The full documentation for foo is maintained as a Texinfo manual"
>but the   info foo   output has no more information than   man foo.

This used to be more of a problem because dpkg provided an install-info 
that couldn't parse the info header used in newer versions of texinfo.  
This was obviously a bug but hung around for a while before it was 
solved. E.g., in etch the ls man page would point people to the ls info 
page, but since install-info didn't parse the index properly, "info ls" 
couldn't find any ls info and fell back to displaying the ls man page. 
It was possible to run "info coreutils ls", and the coreutils man page 
tried that later on. This failed in other cases, which led to the 
current (awkward) formulation in which the ls man page references "info 
'(coreutils) ls invocation'". Eventually, dpkg's install-info was 
replaced by the actual texinfo install-info, so a simple "info ls" also 
works again. 

TL;DR: man pages referencing info pages which are just man pages 
shouldn't be a thing anymore.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201855

On Mon 29 Oct 2018 at 16:27:13 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 10:20:30AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > What Brian asked for is an example of a man page that ends with
> > "The full documentation for foo is maintained as a Texinfo manual"
> > but the   info foo   output has no more information than   man foo.
> 
> This used to be more of a problem because dpkg provided an install-info that
> couldn't parse the info header used in newer versions of texinfo.  This was
> obviously a bug but hung around for a while before it was solved. E.g., in
> etch the ls man page would point people to the ls info page, but since
> install-info didn't parse the index properly, "info ls" couldn't find any ls
> info and fell back to displaying the ls man page. It was possible to run
> "info coreutils ls", and the coreutils man page tried that later on. This
> failed in other cases, which led to the current (awkward) formulation in
> which the ls man page references "info '(coreutils) ls invocation'".
> Eventually, dpkg's install-info was replaced by the actual texinfo
> install-info, so a simple "info ls" also works again.
> 
> TL;DR: man pages referencing info pages which are just man pages shouldn't
> be a thing anymore.

Does 'info make' giving a man page fit your explanation?

-- 
Brian.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201856

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 08:57:50PM +0000, Brian wrote:
>On Mon 29 Oct 2018 at 16:27:13 -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 10:20:30AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>> > What Brian asked for is an example of a man page that ends with
>> > "The full documentation for foo is maintained as a Texinfo manual"
>> > but the   info foo   output has no more information than   man foo.
>>
>> This used to be more of a problem because dpkg provided an install-info that
>> couldn't parse the info header used in newer versions of texinfo.  This was
>> obviously a bug but hung around for a while before it was solved. E.g., in
>> etch the ls man page would point people to the ls info page, but since
>> install-info didn't parse the index properly, "info ls" couldn't find any ls
>> info and fell back to displaying the ls man page. It was possible to run
>> "info coreutils ls", and the coreutils man page tried that later on. This
>> failed in other cases, which led to the current (awkward) formulation in
>> which the ls man page references "info '(coreutils) ls invocation'".
>> Eventually, dpkg's install-info was replaced by the actual texinfo
>> install-info, so a simple "info ls" also works again.
>>
>> TL;DR: man pages referencing info pages which are just man pages shouldn't
>> be a thing anymore.
>
>Does 'info make' giving a man page fit your explanation?

No, that's a different case. make suggests, but does not require, 
make-doc. If you don't have make-doc installed, you won't get the info 
page. Splitting them is for practical reasons--because a lot more people 
have make installed as a dependency than actually write makefiles, and 
the info docs are actually larger than the entire make package--and 
policy reasons--the make docs have a non-free license. I will file a bug 
suggesting that the man page reference the online docs.

Mike Stone

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201859

On 2018-10-29, Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> wrote:
>
> TL;DR: man pages referencing info pages which are just man pages 
> shouldn't be a thing anymore.
>
>


Those countless legions of info-page junkies (and the Philadelphia
lawyers who've oozed from the woodwork once more to litigate this gnat
up the wazoo) must be ecstatic to hear the news.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web