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Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

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  Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-14 16:40 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-14 18:20 +0200
      Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 20:30 +0200
        Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 22:10 +0200
          Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 22:30 +0200
            Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-15 10:10 +0200
              Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2018-10-15 10:50 +0200
                OT (as was to be expected) Trolling [was: Pico-report: using Stable  without sysvinit] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-15 11:10 +0200
                Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:50 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 18:20 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-14 18:40 +0200
        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 19:50 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:30 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-14 19:30 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 22:00 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-10-15 07:20 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-15 15:50 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:20 +0200
        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 11:20 +0200
          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-16 11:40 +0200
            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-16 17:40 +0200
              Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 18:20 +0200
                Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 18:40 +0200
                  Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-16 19:10 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 20:20 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 22:40 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-16 23:50 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-17 10:30 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 11:20 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-17 12:00 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-17 10:50 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-17 14:50 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-10-17 15:50 +0200
                Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-16 19:10 +0200
                  Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-16 19:30 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:20 +0200
                      X11 Forwarding and inet6 support on loopback (Was: Micro-report:  using Stable without systemd) Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2018-10-16 22:40 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 00:20 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-17 01:20 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 02:20 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Felmon Davis <davisf@union.edu> - 2018-10-17 08:40 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 06:00 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-17 07:00 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 09:50 +0200
                            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-18 00:40 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-17 10:40 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 11:00 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-17 12:20 +0200
                            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 19:20 +0200
                              Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-18 12:00 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-17 11:40 +0200
                  Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 22:40 +0200
                Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-10-16 21:50 +0200
          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2018-10-16 16:40 +0200
            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 18:10 +0200
              Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2018-10-16 20:40 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-16 21:30 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2018-10-17 11:00 +0200

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#201220 — Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.

I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I will
not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 

I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
init system.

I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,
but if not - I have investigated OpenRC and nosh, and determined to my
own satisfaction that openrc does not offer enough benefits to be worth
the cost of changing over, but nosh might.

-dsr-

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#201221

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On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> 
> I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I will
> not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> 
> I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> init system.

Can confirm that.

> I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,

That's my hope too. Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
may our approaches differ sometimes.

Thanks for your report, cheers
-- tomás

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#201231 — Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit

On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 17:57:47 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > 
> > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > 
> > I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I will
> > not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> > 
> > I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> > init system.
> 
> Can confirm that.

So can I.
 
> > I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,
> 
> That's my hope too. Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
> us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
> may our approaches differ sometimes.

Agreed. Sheer commonsense. And more fun, too.

-- 
Brian.

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#201236 — Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit

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> "
> > Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
> > us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
> > may our approaches differ sometimes.
>
> Agreed. Sheer commonsense. And more fun, too.
>
"


With all due respect, I must strongly disagree.

Systemd is Redhat/NSA cancerware, serving their selfish interests, not
yours.

And since we are all familiar with the numerous and profound design and
implementation deficiencies of systemd, these will not be repeated here.

I believe Debian made a terrible mistake in submitting to the Systemd
tyranny. A mistake that I do not and will not agree with. And that I oppose
and will continue to oppose.

And I shall not entertain notions to the contrary.

To quote Kate McKinnon, "I'm not giving up, and you shouldn't either."

--------------------------------------------------------

"One ring to summon them, and in the darkness bind them."

"Ein wolk,
 ein Reich,
 ein init."

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#201237 — Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit

On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 16:06:44 -0400, Default User wrote:

> > "
> > > Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
> > > us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
> > > may our approaches differ sometimes.
> >
> > Agreed. Sheer commonsense. And more fun, too.
> >
> "
> 
> 
> With all due respect, I must strongly disagree.
> 
> Systemd is Redhat/NSA cancerware, serving their selfish interests, not
> yours.
> 
> And since we are all familiar with the numerous and profound design and
> implementation deficiencies of systemd, these will not be repeated here.
> 
> I believe Debian made a terrible mistake in submitting to the Systemd
> tyranny. A mistake that I do not and will not agree with. And that I oppose
> and will continue to oppose.
> 
> And I shall not entertain notions to the contrary.
> 
> To quote Kate McKinnon, "I'm not giving up, and you shouldn't either."
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "One ring to summon them, and in the darkness bind them."
> 
> "Ein wolk,
>  ein Reich,
>  ein init."

Shush; you'll awake the trolls. Terrible things happen then - and the
fun is taken out of it.

-- 
Brian.

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#201252 — Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit

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On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 09:24:55PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 16:06:44 -0400, Default User wrote:
> 
> > > "
> > > > Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
> > > > us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
> > > > may our approaches differ sometimes.
> > >
> > > Agreed. Sheer commonsense. And more fun, too.
> > >
> > "
> > 
> > 
> > With all due respect, I must strongly disagree.
> > 
> > Systemd is Redhat/NSA cancerware, serving their selfish interests, not
> > yours.

The thing is -- we can't know, because they keep it secret. And... know
what? We don't care. Each one uses her init system of choice and tries
to be nice to the others.

And... BTW: how do I know for certain that you aren't one of Putin's
trolls? Exactly.

> > And since we are all familiar [...]

Blah, blah. I hope by now people are so fed up with those flamefests that
we all do what we can best: make software better.

> > "Ein wolk,
> >  ein Reich,
> >  ein init."
> 
> Shush; you'll awake the trolls. Terrible things happen then - and the
> fun is taken out of it.

Exactly, Brian: I couldn't have put it more succintly. And oh, BTW, to
the OP: check your spelling. "Wolk" would be the non-existent masculine
form of "cloud" -- an interesting lapsus in our modern context :-)

Cheers
-- t

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#201254 — Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit

	Hi.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:04:21AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 09:24:55PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 16:06:44 -0400, Default User wrote:
> > 
> > > > "
> > > > > Moreover I hope we can leave the bickering behind
> > > > > us and realize that after all, we're all working on free software,
> > > > > may our approaches differ sometimes.
> > > >
> > > > Agreed. Sheer commonsense. And more fun, too.
> > > >
> > > "
> > > 
> > > 
> > > With all due respect, I must strongly disagree.
> > > 
> > > Systemd is Redhat/NSA cancerware, serving their selfish interests, not
> > > yours.
> 
> The thing is -- we can't know, because they keep it secret. And... know
> what? We don't care. Each one uses her init system of choice and tries
> to be nice to the others.
> 
> And... BTW: how do I know for certain that you aren't one of Putin's
> trolls? Exactly.

X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8884:: with SMTP id k4-v6mr8852094lji.145.1539547617084;
        Sun, 14 Oct 2018 13:06:57 -0700 (PDT)

It's the timezone that gives them out. That one came from USA.

Reco

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#201255 — OT (as was to be expected) Trolling [was: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit]

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On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 11:41:32AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> 	Hi.
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 10:04:21AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > And... BTW: how do I know for certain that you aren't one of Putin's
> > trolls? Exactly.
> 
> X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8884:: with SMTP id k4-v6mr8852094lji.145.1539547617084;
>         Sun, 14 Oct 2018 13:06:57 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> It's the timezone that gives them out. That one came from USA.

But the Internet Research Agency is powerful and CAN EVEN HACK TIMEZONES.

Or... In post soviet Russia Timezone Hacks You!

or something.

Cheers
-- t

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#201262 — Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit

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> > And... BTW: how do I know for certain that you aren't one of Putin's
> > trolls? Exactly.
>


You have found us out.
Good morning from Saint Pyotrsbourg.

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#201222

On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 10:23 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident,
> I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> 
> I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I
> will
> not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> 
> I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> init system.

I take it you don't have encrypted disks then, because with them
Stretch will hang on shutdown if you aren't using systemd as the init
process [1], that was the reason I finally gave in and installed
systemd when I upgraded to Stretch. The nail in the coffin was the
comments linked to from that bug report where udev upstream maintainers
said they don't support non-systemd init (udev is part of the systemd
project now).

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=794721

-- 
Tixy

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#201225

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On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 04:57:49PM +0100, Tixy wrote:
> On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 10:23 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident,
> > I
> > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > 
> > I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number (I
> > will
> > not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> > 
> > I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my choice of
> > init system.
> 
> I take it you don't have encrypted disks then, because with them
> Stretch will hang on shutdown if you aren't using systemd as the init
> process [...]

This is fixable. I've encrypted disks (unencrypted boot plus one LUKS
partition containing an LVM whithin which the other partitions live).
All under sysvinit.

If there's interest, I can recap what I had to do to fix it (it seemed
obvious to me at the time, but memory is treacherous).

Cheers
-- t

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#201227

On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 18:19 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 04:57:49PM +0100, Tixy wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-10-14 at 10:23 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by
> > > accident,
> > > I
> > > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > > 
> > > I have done so on six desktops, two laptops, and a large number
> > > (I
> > > will
> > > not specify, but in the hundreds) of servers. 
> > > 
> > > I have encountered no problems that can be attributed to my
> > > choice of
> > > init system.
> > 
> > I take it you don't have encrypted disks then, because with them
> > Stretch will hang on shutdown if you aren't using systemd as the
> > init
> > process [...]
> 
> This is fixable. I've encrypted disks (unencrypted boot plus one LUKS
> partition containing an LVM whithin which the other partitions live).

That's my setup too.

> All under sysvinit.
> 
> If there's interest, I can recap what I had to do to fix it (it
> seemed
> obvious to me at the time, but memory is treacherous).

Thanks for the offer, personally I'm sticking with systemd for now.

BTW, I just noticed, the Debian bug I mentioned [1] has had recent
activity and was marked as fixed a month ago, so I guess Buster will
be fixed.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=794721

-- 
Tixy

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#201223

On 10/14/2018 4:23 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> 

If I understand correctly, on a fresh install of Debian systemd is
purge.systemd.
If yes, why not going for a Debian derivative that does not include
systemd per default:

https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&origin=All&basedon=Debian&notbasedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=All&package=All&rolling=All&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=Not+systemd&status=Active#simple

Or were all your hosts upgraded from a version where systemd was not
installed?

-- 
John Doe

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#201226

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 06:09:12PM +0200, john doe wrote:
> On 10/14/2018 4:23 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > 
> > Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> > systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> > promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.
> > 
> 
> If I understand correctly, on a fresh install of Debian systemd is
> purge.systemd.
> If yes, why not going for a Debian derivative that does not include
> systemd per default:
> 
> https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&origin=All&basedon=Debian&notbasedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=All&package=All&rolling=All&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=Not+systemd&status=Active#simple

Er, because I like Debian? I've been using it since 1.3.

> Or were all your hosts upgraded from a version where systemd was not
> installed?

Some, not all. On new systems, I remove systemd in favor of
sysvinit, as I said. 

-dsr-

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#201235

On Sun, 14 Oct 2018 10:23:15 -0400
Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> wrote:

> Throughout Jessie and Stretch, I have been running Debian without
> systemd as the init system. If systemd became installed by accident, I
> promptly removed it in favor of sysvinit.

So did I. Started with a clean, netistall, terminal only Stretch
system, converted to sysvinit, but left the systemd libraries as
dependencies.  No problems, not even during apt upgrade.  Sysvinit
remains the default init.

> I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,
> but if not - I have investigated OpenRC and nosh, and determined to my
> own satisfaction that openrc does not offer enough benefits to be
> worth the cost of changing over, but nosh might.

Take a look at runitinit and runit (the supervisor).  I was considering
it as an improvement over sysvinit when I was looking to completely
purge systemd, but found too many Debian apps, etc. have some part of
systemd as a dependency and I'd have to jump through too many hoops to
be totally free of it with the resulting system being potentially less
stable. Something I DIDN'T want.

FYI: Testing Devuan ascii now for future consideration.  No problems so
far.  Still like runit though.  And it's easy to convert the
default sysvinit to it.

B

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#201250

On 14.10.18 12:36, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> FYI: Testing Devuan ascii now for future consideration.  No problems so
> far.  Still like runit though.  And it's easy to convert the
> default sysvinit to it.

+1  (Running pre-systemd debian on laptop and one old desktop, devuan
    ascii on the new one and any future hosts.

Erik

-- 
(5)  It is always possible to agglutinate multiple separate problems
     into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases
     this is a bad idea.
                                                                     RFC-1925

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#201259

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

>I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,

It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
package.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#201261

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On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 9:42 AM Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 10:23:15AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
>
> >I hope that this situation continues in the next iteration of Stable,
>
> It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
> package.
>

Does this mean that Devuan is also at risk?

(Even though I keep up, best I can, with SystemD, I keep a Parallel Devuan
up to date, in VirtualBox, to ensure that it doesn't lose Packages I need).

Kenneth Parker

>

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#201295

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 09:58:30AM -0400, Kenneth Parker wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 9:42 AM Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
>> It's currently at risk by a lack of maintainers for the sysvinit
>> package.
>
>Does this mean that Devuan is also at risk?

I can merely speculate. I know very little about Devuan, but the
impression I have got in the last day (entirely via mails from other
people to debian mailing lists, I have not investigated myself) is that
they are short on people-power. (so is Debian, of course!)

If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the amount
of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of individual
Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support would slowly
start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support back in, over time.

This would be more work, IMHO, than if interested parties collaborated
to support the sysvinit package and keep it in Debian.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#201297

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On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:01:46AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

[...]

> If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the amount
> of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of individual
> Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support would slowly
> start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support back in, over time.

This is the most important point: at the end, it's the individual
packagers who are doing the hard work. Personally I'm pretty unhappy
about the Debian/Devuan split, which stems from a lot of distrust.
I'm convinced that in the long term, this distrust is counter-productive
for "both sides".

Cheers
-- tomás

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