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How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

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  How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-27 18:10 +0200
    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-09-28 20:00 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 21:20 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 22:10 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 23:00 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-29 10:10 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-29 11:10 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2018-09-29 11:30 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> - 2018-09-29 14:50 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-29 15:40 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2018-09-29 23:10 +0200
                  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-10-01 10:20 +0200
      discussing debian wiki on the wiki (was Re: How to react on a  factually wrong Debian wiki change ?) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 21:50 +0200

#200685 — How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

Hi,

is perhaps the Debian wiki user StephenKeeling subscribed here ?
We need to discuss the recent wiki change
  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff&rev1=30&rev2=31

Alternatively:
- Does the wiki have means to contact a particular Debian wiki user ?
- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
  to other editors why a particular change was undone ?

If Steve McIntyre or Joerg Jaspert, the DDs involved with wodim, are
reading this: Could you please confirm this statement of mine ?
  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200732

Hey Thomas!

Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>
>is perhaps the Debian wiki user StephenKeeling subscribed here ?
>We need to discuss the recent wiki change
>  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff&rev1=30&rev2=31
>
>Alternatively:
>- Does the wiki have means to contact a particular Debian wiki user ?

Not directly, I'm afraid.

>- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
>  to other editors why a particular change was undone ?

Moin doesn't directly have the "talk" feature that some other wikis
do, sorry.

>If Steve McIntyre or Joerg Jaspert, the DDs involved with wodim, are
>reading this: Could you please confirm this statement of mine ?
>  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

Well, that's me. :-) cdrkit is definitely now EOL, and I don't use it
myself for writing DVD or BD media. You can quote me on that. Feel
free to change the wiki page back to where it was.

As an admin for wiki.debian.org, I'd have BCCed this mail to
StephenKeeling (as I have access to the user account data too), but
he's removed the email address from his account so I can't. :-(

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

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#200737

Hi,

i wrote:
> > So how should the statement be improved ?
> > ["wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."]

Curt wrote:
> You could say:
>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> Or
>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> Or
>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>  best avoided when burning to those media.

Number 1 and 2 would bear content equivalent to mine.

Number 3 is inaccurate, because wodim works with some media types in
some situations reliably. It fails at other occasions reliably.


Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I'm fond of:
>   wodim should not be used.
> Although that may be too strong.  Maybe keep that "with DVD/BD media" bit
> on the end. ;-)

Then it would be

  wodim should not be used with DVD/BD media

and thus quite similar to the current wording.

I had chosen the current wording in order not to badmouth wodim, which
still is needed for some exotic CD use cases (CD-XA, data-audio mixed mode,
"raw" burning modes, ...).

My libburn does pure data CD or pure audio CD. For all other use cases
i lack examples and test users.


Steve McIntyre wrote:
> cdrkit is definitely now EOL, and I don't use it
> myself for writing DVD or BD media.

Thanks a lot for this clarification. Your message
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01078.html
will serve me as evidence to defend my position at future occasions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

So as question to native speakers of english language:

How to express in a concise sentence the fact that users of wodim
will be on their own if anything goes wrong on DVD or BD ?

Please read the whole section
  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd#Burn_the_image_file_to_CD.2C_DVD.2C_or_BD
to get the context. The sentence in question is near the section's end.

It seems not necessary for the purpose of the wiki page to give much
reason or detail for the advise to restrict wodim usage to CDs.
The residual use cases are not in the scope of the wiki article for
quite the same reasons why they are not supported by libburn.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200741

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> i wrote:
>> > So how should the statement be improved ?
>> > ["wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."]
>
> Curt wrote:
>> You could say:
>>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
>> Or
>>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
>> Or
>>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>>  best avoided when burning to those media.
>
> Number 1 and 2 would bear content equivalent to mine.

Right. My reason to rephrase was only that "should better not" isn't
quite idiomatic English. It's not a big deal, though.

> Number 3 is inaccurate, because wodim works with some media types in
> some situations reliably. It fails at other occasions reliably.
>

Here I went out on a limb. Though it's true I'd gladly trade a superior
turn of phrase for a little accuracy.

 Wodim has proved to fail under certain conditions and as a general rule
 should probably be avoided when burning to DVD or BD media.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200742

Hi,

Curt proposed:
>  Wodim has proved to fail under certain conditions and as a general rule
>  should probably be avoided when burning to DVD or BD media.

I like this better than what Brian (i assume) committed now:

  https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff&rev1=36&rev2=37

  "Wodim has proved much less reliable when used with DVD or BD media
   and is best avoided when burning to those media."

In that statement i object the term "reliable". The failures are
reproducible and due to inappropriate preparation commands before
writing begins or inappropriate finalization commands after writing.

Let me give you an example:

With CD-R, the drive expects to get a SCSI command MODE SELECT with
a "mode page 05" as payload. That mode page is a form with several fields.
Among them is the field "Write Type". We normally use 2="SAO" or 1="TAO".
Then there is the "Multi-session" field. 0=finalize, 3=keep writable.

With DVD-R, which is very similar to CD-R, a mode page 05 is sent too.
The Write Type can be 2="DAO" or 0="Incremental". Only with "Incremental"
the Multi-session field can be used to keep the medium writable.

With DVD+R, no mode page 05 must be sent. The decision whether the medium
stays writable is postponed until writing is done. Each track is finished
by a command CLOSE TRACK SESSION. An additional command CLOSE TRACK SESSION
may close the whole medium.

Now imagine wodim applying the rules for CD-R to the other two.
With DVD-R, chances for success are quite good. A CD-R SAO run with
Multi-session = 0 matches a DVD-R DAO run. But DVD-R Multi-session = 1
demands a different Write Type value than CD SAO or TAO.
With DVD+R, the need for the finalizing commands will not be fulfilled.
Also the drive will complain about the mode page 05 being sent.

This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
(Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200748

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
> But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
> (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)

As specified in the part of my article you snipped, the unique purpose
of my proposals was to eliminate your unidiomatic phraseology, not to
alter or embellish or ameliorate the nature of the message itself.

I do think you should probably add your cell phone number to the wiki so
that confused users can ring you up if they encounter difficulties. This
is being done more and more by developers these days. There's nothing
like that "personal touch," Tom, to get those recalcitrant users on
board with your software.

Good luck and have a good one.

Curt

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200749

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
> Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
> But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
> (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)

I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that quoted
phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.

Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of electrons
for nothing.

There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue (unless
Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place).

Out.

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200753

On 9/29/18 10:59 AM, Curt wrote:
> Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of electrons
> for nothing.
> 
> There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue (unless
> Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place).

That's quite some entropy created in our universe.
If Carnot is right, we won't get away with it.

Cheers.
-- 
Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org>

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#200755

On Sat, 2018-09-29 at 08:59 +0000, Curt wrote:
> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
> > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
> > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
> > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
> > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)
> 
> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that
> quoted
> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.
> 
So 12,000 people can be wrong :)

Just altering the word order gives more clarity to the statement.

"should be better not used" While still not entirely correct implies
less of a threat. 

"(it) better not be used (or)" - "the computer gods will frot you"

"would be better not used" may be correct depending on the rest of the
context.

Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied?

Cheers
Dom.


> Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of
> electrons
> for nothing.
> 
> There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue
> (unless
> Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place).
> 
> Out.
> 
> > Have a nice day :)
> > 
> > Thomas
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

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#200756

On 2018-09-29, Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied?

Implicit threats? Yeah, man. Like: 

"Got money and DVD/BD media to burn? Then burn 'em up with wodim*, the
geeky masochist's premier choice for an unspecifiable subset of his
burning needs."

*Read instructions before use. Harmful if swallowed.

> Cheers
> Dom.


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200762

On 9/29/18, Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2018-09-29 at 08:59 +0000, Curt wrote:
>> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless".
>> > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct.
>> > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement.
>> > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.)
>>
>> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that
>> quoted
>> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.
>>
> So 12,000 people can be wrong :)
>
> Just altering the word order gives more clarity to the statement.
>
> "should be better not used" While still not entirely correct implies
> less of a threat.
>
> "(it) better not be used (or)" - "the computer gods will frot you"
>
> "would be better not used" may be correct depending on the rest of the
> context.
>
> Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied?

Wodim should not be used for burning to DVD or BD media.

Which also implies no support for DVD/BD burning.  And link "should
not be used" to
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01048.html
to explain why it should not be used?

Regards,
Lee

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#200790

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that quoted
> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits.

12 thousand is not much. Popular germanisms get more. We are busy
spoilers of english language.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

After considering all proposals made so far, and the statements in
Steve McIntyre's mail, i inow wrote in the wiki

  wodim should not be used with DVD or BD media.
  [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01078.html|
    This statement is supported by wodim's maintainer.]]

Edit comment is:
  Hopefully final statement on wodim with DVD or BD media.
  Backed by maintainer of wodim.

Steve agreed to my statement with the word "better" in it. That word was
not essential to the advise. So i dropped it.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200739 — discussing debian wiki on the wiki (was Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?)

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 06:49:26PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
>>  to other editors why a particular change was undone ?
>
>Moin doesn't directly have the "talk" feature that some other wikis
>do, sorry.

It can have Discussion pages via "supplementation pages" feature[1]. My
recollection back when we moved to Moin (from kwiki I think?) was that
it was decided by the responsible admins to instead encourage using
debian-www for wiki-related discussion, and to not use Discussion pages.

That was a long time ago and I think it's fair to say that debian-www is
probably not the ideal place for wiki content discussions after all. It
might be worth revisiting the decision, although this (-user) isn't the
place to suggest that. (I might suggest it in the proper place if I have
time next week).

[1] https://moinmo.in/HelpOnConfiguration/SupplementationPage

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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