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Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

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  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-09-27 18:10 +0200
    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-27 22:10 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2018-09-28 07:40 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 11:00 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-09-28 11:20 +0200
            Re: DVD+R DL and BD media. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 11:40 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 12:30 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 12:50 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 13:20 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 15:10 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 15:40 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 16:50 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 17:00 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 17:40 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 17:50 +0200
                  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 18:10 +0200
                    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-09-28 18:20 +0200
                    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 20:30 +0200
                      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 21:50 +0200
                  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 20:30 +0200
                    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 21:30 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 17:50 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 18:20 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 17:00 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-09-28 19:30 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 10:10 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-09-28 20:10 +0200
          Future of cdrkit. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 21:10 +0200
    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-27 22:10 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 13:10 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 14:10 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 15:30 +0200

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#200738

Hi,

i wrote towards Jonathan Dowland:
> > Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself.
> > So it is not a wiki war.

Brian wrote:
> Why is it questionable? Either you stand behind your statement or not.

Wikis going forth and back several times don't make a good impression.
I'd have waited for Steve McIntyre's statement or some community
consense before reverting the change. Well, Jonathan established that
consense after considering the presented arguments.

Now i have to speak in favor of keeping my favorite zombies undead.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200725

On 2018-09-28, Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +0000, Curt wrote:
>>It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
>>bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
>
> For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development.

Oh.

> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> that.
>

It's of little importance one way or another, really. As is is clear. 

What was important was to restore the text, for which I thank you.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200728

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 16:29:56 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +0000, Curt wrote:
> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
> 
> For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development.
> 
> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> that.

Sufficient rationale is in

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01033.html

 > My way to express the current technical situation was the statement:
 >
 >  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
 >
 > which now became
 >
 >  "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD
 >   media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most
 >  especially burner types and condition, and media quality.
 >  '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''"

 > It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm).

A user doesn't have to be a cdrkit developer or user of the software to
act on a statement such as this when editing a wiki.

-- 
Brian.

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#200721

On 2018-09-28, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>
>> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
>> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.
>
> Have you satisfied your curiosity?

He says:
 
 revert StephenKeeling's edit rewording warning about wodim - see recent
 discussion on debian-user for background, please join the discussion if
 you disagree


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200730

On Friday, September 28, 2018 01:32:38 AM Richard Hector wrote:
> How about something like:
> 
> "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not
> meet the relevant specifications."
> 
> or perhaps s/work/appear to work/

I am also not an expert in this area, but I would ask is it "will not meet" or 
is it "may not meet" (the relevant specifications).

> Note: I have no expertise in this area; I'm merely interpreting the
> comments above.

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#200699

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:00:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
>and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.

That would be reason enough to avoid wodim IMHO... but it would also
suggest that wodim should not be in the archive either. The binary
package name wodim is currently provided by the src package cdrkit. Is
that abandoned? (I'm asking this elsewhere, too)

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#200733

Jon Dowland wrote:
>On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:00:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>>wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
>>and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.
>
>That would be reason enough to avoid wodim IMHO... but it would also
>suggest that wodim should not be in the archive either. The binary
>package name wodim is currently provided by the src package cdrkit. Is
>that abandoned? (I'm asking this elsewhere, too)

The only 2 reasons I've had for keeping the cdrkit package in Debian
were:

  1. hfs hybrid support in genisoimage, a topic that Thomas and I have
     spoken about in the past. Now that we no longer have powerpc in
     Debian stable and I don't have to care about making CD and DVD
     releases for it,

  2. icedax's support for extracting cd-text from audio CDs. As
     (also!) maintainer of abcde, that's a very useful feature. I'm
     not aware of anything else that supports it - suggestions
     welcome!

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

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#200736 — Future of cdrkit. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

Hi,

Steve McIntyre wrote:
> The only 2 reasons I've had for keeping the cdrkit package in Debian
> were:
> 1. hfs hybrid support in genisoimage, a topic that Thomas and I have
>    spoken about in the past. Now that we no longer have powerpc in
>    Debian stable and I don't have to care about making CD and DVD
>    releases for it

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, maintainer of rare arches, stated to me
that a 64 bit PowerPC variant still wants HFS.
We did not explore, though, whether it would accept HFS+ of xorriso or
whether it could be served by a HFS image file inside the ISO, similar
to the HFS+ image file in Fedora ISOs.


>  2. icedax's support for extracting cd-text from audio CDs. As
>     (also!) maintainer of abcde, that's a very useful feature. I'm
>     not aware of anything else that supports it - suggestions
>     welcome!

cdrskin can extract CD-TEXT as human readable Sony Input Sheet file.
Search for the example input file "NIGHTCATS.TXT" in
  https://dev.lovelyhq.com/libburnia/libburn/raw/master/doc/cdtext.txt
to see how this format looks like.

I just tested that it works (without much messages) by:

  cdrskin -v dev=/dev/sr4 cdtext_to_v07t=$HOME/cdtext.v07t

The resulting sheet file is then $HOME/cdtext.v07t.
(The CD is self-made. I have no commercial CD with CD-TEXT.)

In man icedax i read mainly about .cddb and .cdindex files.
Do you have examples ? Can you make a sheet file by cdrskin for
comparison with those files from icedax ?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't throw wodim out of Debian. Its residual use cases are worth to
be kept supported. (Although i can explain them only from hearsay
and specs.)

genisoimage is still needed, too. Not only -hfs for booting but also
-udf for DVD video mastering or big data files for *BSD target systems.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200687

On Thu 27 Sep 2018 at 12:07:02 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:59:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Alternatively:
> > - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
> >   to other editors why a particular change was undone ?
> 
> The "Comment" box on the edit page is the obvious place to state your
> reason for reverting someone else's change.  If you need more space than

The "Comment" box is probably the only option. Neither StephenKeeling
nor ThomasSchmitt are contactable by email from the "Info" section. But
a complete reversion of the addition isn't necessarily the way to go.
(See below).

> the wiki revision comment box provides (I don't know how many characters
> that is in moinmoin off hand, but I think it's a few hundred), then it
> becomes more of an issue.  Moinmoin doesn't maintain a parallel "Talk"
> page namespace.  You can put your explanation directly onto the page
> itself, if you think it will be of general interest.

I've seen this done; I do not think wiki pages on technical topics are
the place for advocacy. 

> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
> of wodim, and when not to use it.  As well as the other tools, if they
> have important restrictions and limits.

Agreed.

"wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

Perhaps a rewording:

 There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used
 with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially
 burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful
 burn.

-- 
Brian.

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#200711

On 2018-09-27, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

The French Wiki has something like: 

 It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.

Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would
be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit).

Wodim either is or isn't as reliable as the other two apps for burning
DVD or BD media. My impression is Keeling believes the former. 

> Perhaps a rewording:
>
>  There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used
>  with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially
>  burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful
>  burn.
>

Sure. Now let's head over to the Traffic Safety Wiki to opine that
although some might posit driving down the freeway at 150 mph is
ill-advised, depending on vehicle type, road conditions, pilot skill,
weather, time of day, general visibility, state of traffic, and any
number of other factors, traveling at such speeds on such roadways can
result in a successful transfer from point A to B. 

YMMV.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200713

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 11:02:37 +0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2018-09-27, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
> 
> The French Wiki has something like: 
> 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.
> 
> Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would
> be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit).

Elimination never happened. The only thing noticable is the French
version hasn't been syched with the English version.

Uncommented edits are not unusual; people forget to do it.

-- 
Brian.

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#200716

On 2018-09-28, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 11:02:37 +0000, Curt wrote:
>
>> On 2018-09-27, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
>> 
>> The French Wiki has something like: 
>> 
>>  It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.
>> 
>> Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would
>> be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit).
>
> Elimination never happened. The only thing noticable is the French
> version hasn't been syched with the English version.

Guess I should have said absence rather than elimination. 

> Uncommented edits are not unusual; people forget to do it.
>

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

My uninformed opinion is that the edit is unwarranted and confusing. 

In fact I'd say the edit weaseled the caveat more or less out of
existence. Apparently the "some"* that "believe it would be better"
don't know about the complexity of the variables involved, nor that what
is burnt on device A isn't necessarily readable on device B (but remains
readable on device A?), the implication being they're attributing to the
software what can be ascribed to other, unrelated factors.

* Thomas Schmitt, developer of xorisso (who probably knows his
* shit), of which Keeling was well aware, of course, when he made the
* edit.

-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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