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Re: utilities

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  Re: utilities "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-25 12:10 +0200
    Re: utilities Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-25 12:20 +0200
      Re: utilities "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-25 13:30 +0200
        Re: utilities Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2018-09-25 15:40 +0200
          Re: utilities "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-25 15:50 +0200
        Re: utilities Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-25 16:10 +0200
          Re: utilities "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-25 17:20 +0200
          Re: utilities Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2018-09-25 18:20 +0200
      Re: utilities Jack Dangler <tdldev@gmail.com> - 2018-09-25 14:40 +0200
    Re: utilities Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-09-25 12:40 +0200
      Re: utilities Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-25 13:00 +0200
      Re: utilities Jack Dangler <tdldev@gmail.com> - 2018-09-25 14:40 +0200
      Re: utilities Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2018-09-25 14:40 +0200

#200580 — Re: utilities

Hi,

mick crane wrote:
> have a look in /usr/bin  ?

Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
  https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard

/bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
/sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
/usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.


Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> no trick to be honest

But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
(Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200582

On Tue 25 Sep 2018 at 12:08:54 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> mick crane wrote:
> > have a look in /usr/bin  ?
> 
> Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
>   https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard
> 
> /bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
> /sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
> /usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.
> 
> 
> Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> > no trick to be honest
> 
> But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
> dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
> (Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)

There can be no dispute over the meaning of "standard system
utilities". These are the ones which have a "Priority: standard"
field in the package description.

On my stretch:

  grep -B 1 "Priority: standard" /var/lib/dpkg/available

-- 
Brian.

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#200588

Hi,

Brian wrote:
> There can be no dispute over the meaning of "standard system
> utilities". These are the ones which have a "Priority: standard"
> field in the package description.

There can always be a dispute. q.e.d.

(Hey. You smuggled the word "system" between "standard" and "utility.)

Higher than "standard" are priorities "required" and "important".

But i am not sure whether the official classification in
  https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-priorities
of the first three priorities really matches the idea of a set of
"standard [system] utilities":

  "standard
   These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited
   character-mode system."

I.e. no X Window System:
  https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/x/xorg/control-1%3A7.7%2B19
No command line CD/DVD/BD burning:
  https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/c/cdrkit/control-9%3A1.1.11-3
  https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/d/dvd%2Brw-tools/control-7.1-12
  https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/libi/libisoburn/control-1.4.8-3


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200597

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 01:24:48PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> But i am not sure whether the official classification in
>   https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-priorities
> of the first three priorities really matches the idea of a set of
> "standard [system] utilities":
> 
>   "standard
>    These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited
>    character-mode system."
> 
> I.e. no X Window System:
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/x/xorg/control-1%3A7.7%2B19

I would not consider X[1] to be "standard" on anything other than a
desktop workstation.  I certainly don't install it on the vast majority
of the machines I manage.

> No command line CD/DVD/BD burning:
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/c/cdrkit/control-9%3A1.1.11-3
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/d/dvd%2Brw-tools/control-7.1-12
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/libi/libisoburn/control-1.4.8-3

Sounds pretty far from "standard" to me.  Bordering on "esoteric", even.
Again, CD/DVD/BD burning at all is generally only applicable to end-user
systems[2] and, given that X is usually installed on such systems, I
would expect GUI burners to be used much more widely than CLI programs.


[1] Specifically, an X server.  X client applications are often useful
on non-desktop systems.

[2] And, I would suspect, a rather small subset of end-user systems, at
that.  I only know one person who burns optical media these days, and
that's to back up large numbers of photos whenever her hard drive fills
up.

-- 
Dave Sherohman

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#200598

Hi,

i wrote:
> > No command line CD/DVD/BD burning:

Dave Sherohman wrote:
> Sounds pretty far from "standard" to me.  Bordering on "esoteric", even.

Burn programs compensate for a shortcomming of the Linux kernel and
the Unix device model. If a burner drive is built into the machine,
then a driving program should be installed.

My point is, nevertheless, that the Debian "Priority:" name "standard"
does not necessarily match what a GNU/Linux user would expect as
standard equipment of a system.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200601

On Tue 25 Sep 2018 at 13:24:48 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Brian wrote:
> > There can be no dispute over the meaning of "standard system
> > utilities". These are the ones which have a "Priority: standard"
> > field in the package description.
> 
> There can always be a dispute. q.e.d.

You're after a fight, aren't you? :)
 
> (Hey. You smuggled the word "system" between "standard" and "utility.)

You noticed! I wonder whether the OP did? Does it count as going
off-topic?

> Higher than "standard" are priorities "required" and "important".
> 
> But i am not sure whether the official classification in
>   https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-priorities
> of the first three priorities really matches the idea of a set of
> "standard [system] utilities":
> 
>   "standard
>    These packages provide a reasonably small but not too limited
>    character-mode system."
> 
> I.e. no X Window System:
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/x/xorg/control-1%3A7.7%2B19
> No command line CD/DVD/BD burning:
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/c/cdrkit/control-9%3A1.1.11-3
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/d/dvd%2Brw-tools/control-7.1-12
>   https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/libi/libisoburn/control-1.4.8-3

Aren't standard utilities whatever you want them to be? Who could live
without netcat, midnight commander and oneko?

> Have a nice day :)

You're not helping. :)

-- 
Brian.

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#200604

Hi,

Brian wrote:
> You're after a fight, aren't you? :)

Given the topic, it would be unnatural if no branches and twigs would
appear in this thread. (My apologies to Thakur Mahashaya.)


I wrote:
> > (Hey. You smuggled the word "system" between "standard" and "utility.)

> Does it count as going off-topic?

It was a subtle but potentially effective move to create two strong
stems in the thread tree. Desktop versus headless. Congrats.

Dave Sherohman's statement about nearly nobody burning optical media
triggered my own branching reflexes. (That was stated already in 2006
when i started to learn about burner drives.)


> Aren't standard utilities whatever you want them to be?

That's trivially true, but too cheap an answer to this question.


> Who could live without netcat, midnight commander and oneko?

Does oneko get along well with netcat ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200606

On Tuesday, 25 Sep 2018 at 15:01, Brian wrote:
> Aren't standard utilities whatever you want them to be? Who could live
> without netcat, midnight commander and oneko?

emacs  :-)

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

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#200591

On 09/25/2018 06:17 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 25 Sep 2018 at 12:08:54 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> mick crane wrote:
>>> have a look in /usr/bin  ?
>> Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
>>    https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard
>>
>> /bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
>> /sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
>> /usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.
>>
>>
>> Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
>>> no trick to be honest
>> But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
>> dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
>> (Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)
> There can be no dispute over the meaning of "standard system
> utilities". These are the ones which have a "Priority: standard"
> field in the package description.
>
> On my stretch:
>
>    grep -B 1 "Priority: standard" /var/lib/dpkg/available
>
odd but that grep doesn't produce anything on my laptop. the file is a 
single UTF8 file...

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#200583

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 12:08:54PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> mick crane wrote:
> > have a look in /usr/bin  ?
> 
> Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
>   https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard
> 
> /bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
> /sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
> /usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.
> 
> 
> Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> > no trick to be honest
> 
> But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
> dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
> (Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)

$ aptitude search '?priority(required)'

will get you a list of the packages installed that absolutely
have to be installed. 

Remember the discussion about why Debian doesn't have a default
firewall policy, because everyone needs something different?

Same thing applies here: this is the minimal core that gets you
a working system. Two things should pop out immediately:

1. Some packages have alternatives, where any of the
alternatives will work but you do have to have one of them.

2. There's no boot loader. A boot loader is optional because it
might be supplied by an outside system, like a VM hypervisor.

-dsr-

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#200584

On Tue 25 Sep 2018 at 06:28:46 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 12:08:54PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > mick crane wrote:
> > > have a look in /usr/bin  ?
> > 
> > Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
> >   https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard
> > 
> > /bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
> > /sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
> > /usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.
> > 
> > 
> > Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
> > > no trick to be honest
> > 
> > But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
> > dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
> > (Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)
> 
> $ aptitude search '?priority(required)'
> 
> will get you a list of the packages installed that absolutely
> have to be installed.

A nice use of aptitude. Note that it now "Priority: optional", so it
would not be provided by the installer.

-- 
Brian.

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#200593

On 09/25/2018 06:28 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 12:08:54PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> mick crane wrote:
>>> have a look in /usr/bin  ?
>> Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
>>    https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard
>>
>> /bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
>> /sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
>> /usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.
>>
>>
>> Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
>>> no trick to be honest
>> But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
>> dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
>> (Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)
> $ aptitude search '?priority(required)'
>
> will get you a list of the packages installed that absolutely
> have to be installed.
>
> Remember the discussion about why Debian doesn't have a default
> firewall policy, because everyone needs something different?
>
> Same thing applies here: this is the minimal core that gets you
> a working system. Two things should pop out immediately:
>
> 1. Some packages have alternatives, where any of the
> alternatives will work but you do have to have one of them.
>
> 2. There's no boot loader. A boot loader is optional because it
> might be supplied by an outside system, like a VM hypervisor.
>
> -dsr-
>
>
This is helpful to have! It doesn't quite answer the mail since it lists 
packages of utilities (and not individual utilities themselves as in the 
OPs request), but you could dissect those packages further to find out 
what is in them...

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#200594

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 06:28:46AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
>On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 12:08:54PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> mick crane wrote:
>> > have a look in /usr/bin  ?
>>
>> Not to forget /bin, /sbin, /usr/sbin :
>>   https://wiki.debian.org/FilesystemHierarchyStandard
>>
>> /bin is specified to hold "essential" programs.
>> /sbin is its add-on for system administrators.
>> /usr/bin + /usr/sbin together hold nearly 4000 files on my system.
>>
>>
>> Thakur Mahashaya wrote:
>> > no trick to be honest
>>
>> But are you aware that "standard utility" can be the start of a nice
>> dispute among the regulars of a computer users' mailing list ?
>> (Let's see what happens. No real persons or animals will be hurt.)
>
>$ aptitude search '?priority(required)'
>
>will get you a list of the packages installed that absolutely
>have to be installed.

I'm going to do the extra legwork here. 

Here is a list of 163 files which are in standard priority packages and 
with "bin/" in their path:

https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/5hqGWFRMMJ/

(Apologies for the Ubuntu pastebin, I couldn't get to the debian 
pastebin for some reason)

>
>Remember the discussion about why Debian doesn't have a default
>firewall policy, because everyone needs something different?
>
>Same thing applies here: this is the minimal core that gets you
>a working system. Two things should pop out immediately:
>
>1. Some packages have alternatives, where any of the
>alternatives will work but you do have to have one of them.
>
>2. There's no boot loader. A boot loader is optional because it
>might be supplied by an outside system, like a VM hypervisor.
>
>-dsr-
>


-- 
For more information, please reread.

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