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Debugging mysterious freeze / crash

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  Debugging mysterious freeze / crash Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2018-09-23 05:00 +0200
    Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2018-09-23 08:30 +0200
      Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2018-09-23 16:40 +0200
        Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2018-09-23 18:00 +0200
          Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2018-09-23 20:40 +0200
            Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-09-23 22:00 +0200
              Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-09-23 22:20 +0200
    Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash Selim T. Erdoğan <selim@alumni.cs.utexas.edu> - 2018-09-24 16:40 +0200
      Re: Debugging mysterious freeze / crash Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2018-09-26 06:30 +0200

#200462 — Debugging mysterious freeze / crash

Hi,

I've been experiencing a great deal of frustration recently with
intermittent freezes / crashes on my Debian Sid system (a Lenovo
W550s). The symptoms are that the screen totally freezes and the system
becomes completely unresponsive (even ssh attempts from another machine
fail), and the only thing that seems to have any effect is a hard
reboot (holding down the power button until the system restarts).

Upon reboot, I can't find anything at all interesting in 'journalctl -b
-1', or /var/log/syslog - the former just shows everything looking
normal until the moment of the crash, at which point the log just ends,
and the latter also just shows everything seeming to be fine until the
moment of the crash, and then shows the boot messages from the reboot.

Any ideas of what could be causing this, or how I could go about
debugging it? I've been using this machine for years without
experiencing anything like this, and I'm not sure for how long this has
been a problem. I did recently upgrade from stable to unstable, but I'm
not sure whether or not the problem's initial occurences coincide with
the upgrade.

Celejar

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#200466

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 23.09.2018 07:51, Celejar wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've been experiencing a great deal of frustration recently with
> intermittent freezes / crashes on my Debian Sid system (a Lenovo
> W550s). The symptoms are that the screen totally freezes and the system
> becomes completely unresponsive (even ssh attempts from another machine
> fail), and the only thing that seems to have any effect is a hard
> reboot (holding down the power button until the system restarts).
>
> Upon reboot, I can't find anything at all interesting in 'journalctl -b
> -1', or /var/log/syslog - the former just shows everything looking
> normal until the moment of the crash, at which point the log just ends,
> and the latter also just shows everything seeming to be fine until the
> moment of the crash, and then shows the boot messages from the reboot.
>
> Any ideas of what could be causing this, or how I could go about
> debugging it? I've been using this machine for years without
> experiencing anything like this, and I'm not sure for how long this has
> been a problem. I did recently upgrade from stable to unstable, but I'm
> not sure whether or not the problem's initial occurences coincide with
> the upgrade.
>
> Celejar
>
With symptoms like this, I'd suspect hardware problems. If there is
something bad happened with some software the kernel would know and warn
about it.

Best way to debug it, I think, is to test hardware under load with
another fresh OS. Debian stable or Windows trial version would do.
Severe over-heating can cause this. So monitor temperatures of CPU and
ICH. Dangerous levels like 80C-90C-100C should be dealt with.
You have to check if battery is ok, PSU performs alright and can deliver
power under high-load.
During tests you can apply small amount of vibration to the laptop (with
constantly typing on the keyboard, or just tapping on the sides of the
laptop) to check if there are some solder joints become crackled and
could loose contact temporarily.
Do all tests sequentially, to be able to find root cause for the
freezes. If you got few lockups while tapping, you have faulty
motherboard that should be serviced or replaced.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 

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#200494

On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 11:27:19 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23.09.2018 07:51, Celejar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've been experiencing a great deal of frustration recently with
> > intermittent freezes / crashes on my Debian Sid system (a Lenovo
> > W550s). The symptoms are that the screen totally freezes and the system
> > becomes completely unresponsive (even ssh attempts from another machine
> > fail), and the only thing that seems to have any effect is a hard
> > reboot (holding down the power button until the system restarts).
> >
> > Upon reboot, I can't find anything at all interesting in 'journalctl -b
> > -1', or /var/log/syslog - the former just shows everything looking
> > normal until the moment of the crash, at which point the log just ends,
> > and the latter also just shows everything seeming to be fine until the
> > moment of the crash, and then shows the boot messages from the reboot.
> >
> > Any ideas of what could be causing this, or how I could go about
> > debugging it? I've been using this machine for years without
> > experiencing anything like this, and I'm not sure for how long this has
> > been a problem. I did recently upgrade from stable to unstable, but I'm
> > not sure whether or not the problem's initial occurences coincide with
> > the upgrade.
> >
> > Celejar
> >
> With symptoms like this, I'd suspect hardware problems. If there is
> something bad happened with some software the kernel would know and warn
> about it.
> 
> Best way to debug it, I think, is to test hardware under load with
> another fresh OS. Debian stable or Windows trial version would do.
> Severe over-heating can cause this. So monitor temperatures of CPU and
> ICH. Dangerous levels like 80C-90C-100C should be dealt with.

I suspected thermal issues, but the problem seems to occur when the
fans aren't even running (of course, maybe there's some fan
related malfunction ;)). I'll keep a closer eye on the sensors.

> You have to check if battery is ok, PSU performs alright and can deliver
> power under high-load.
> During tests you can apply small amount of vibration to the laptop (with
> constantly typing on the keyboard, or just tapping on the sides of the
> laptop) to check if there are some solder joints become crackled and
> could loose contact temporarily.
> Do all tests sequentially, to be able to find root cause for the
> freezes. If you got few lockups while tapping, you have faulty
> motherboard that should be serviced or replaced.

One of the reasons I buy Thinkpad T (or W) series machines is to not
have to worry about such things, but I understand that there are no
guarantees ;)

I'll try some stress / system testing (memtest, sysbench), with
tapping, and see what I find.

Thanks much,

Celejar

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#200500

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 23.09.2018 18:00, Celejar wrote:

> One of the reasons I buy Thinkpad T (or W) series machines is to not
> have to worry about such things, but I understand that there are no
> guarantees ;)
>
Some people strongly believe there are conspiracy among hardware
manufacturers, such as planned failure. I'm one of them tinfoil hats,
because I've seen too many "too convenient" failures to believe they
were random.
We now live in the age of Pb-less solder and BGA chips. This is a bad
thing because Tin without Pb becomes brittle with time. Also Tin could
grow microscopic hair-like structures that could short-circuit
neighboring solder joints. This is why service people have to resort to
re-flow and re-ball techniques on still working BGA chipsets,
essentially adding Pb and resolder ICs back into same motherboard or
replacing faulty chips if they are dead.
I've seen flux that becomes conductive after a couple of years of device
usage. I've seen rubber-like substance with same characteristics that
holds components in place inside PSUs, you just stick 2 probes of your
MMT into and it shows resistance.
I can go on infinitely on this topic, so I better stop.
> I'll try some stress / system testing (memtest, sysbench), with
> tapping, and see what I find.
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Celejar
>

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 

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#200509

On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 20:48:49 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23.09.2018 18:00, Celejar wrote:
> 
> > One of the reasons I buy Thinkpad T (or W) series machines is to not
> > have to worry about such things, but I understand that there are no
> > guarantees ;)
> >
> Some people strongly believe there are conspiracy among hardware
> manufacturers, such as planned failure. I'm one of them tinfoil hats,
> because I've seen too many "too convenient" failures to believe they
> were random.
> We now live in the age of Pb-less solder and BGA chips. This is a bad
> thing because Tin without Pb becomes brittle with time. Also Tin could
> grow microscopic hair-like structures that could short-circuit
> neighboring solder joints. This is why service people have to resort to
> re-flow and re-ball techniques on still working BGA chipsets,
> essentially adding Pb and resolder ICs back into same motherboard or
> replacing faulty chips if they are dead.
> I've seen flux that becomes conductive after a couple of years of device
> usage. I've seen rubber-like substance with same characteristics that
> holds components in place inside PSUs, you just stick 2 probes of your
> MMT into and it shows resistance.
> I can go on infinitely on this topic, so I better stop.

:) Thanks for the perspective - I know much too little about hardware
to form an intelligent opinion.

Celejar

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#200513

On Sunday 23 September 2018 14:30:51 Celejar wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 20:48:49 +0500
>
> "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 23.09.2018 18:00, Celejar wrote:
> > > One of the reasons I buy Thinkpad T (or W) series machines is to
> > > not have to worry about such things, but I understand that there
> > > are no guarantees ;)
> >
> > Some people strongly believe there are conspiracy among hardware
> > manufacturers, such as planned failure. I'm one of them tinfoil
> > hats, because I've seen too many "too convenient" failures to
> > believe they were random.
> > We now live in the age of Pb-less solder and BGA chips. This is a
> > bad thing because Tin without Pb becomes brittle with time. Also Tin
> > could grow microscopic hair-like structures that could short-circuit
> > neighboring solder joints. This is why service people have to resort
> > to re-flow and re-ball techniques on still working BGA chipsets,
> > essentially adding Pb and resolder ICs back into same motherboard or
> > replacing faulty chips if they are dead.
> > I've seen flux that becomes conductive after a couple of years of
> > device usage. I've seen rubber-like substance with same
> > characteristics that holds components in place inside PSUs, you just
> > stick 2 probes of your MMT into and it shows resistance.
> > I can go on infinitely on this topic, so I better stop.
> >
> :) Thanks for the perspective - I know much too little about hardware
>
> to form an intelligent opinion.
>
> Celejar

I can, been chasing electrons for 70 of my 84 years, and I can 
categoricly state that fellow Murphy, who wrote all those laws, was a 
pessimist. His "whatever can go wrong, will", is an understatement. Even 
if it cannot go wrong, it will.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#200514

Gene Heskett wrote:

> I can, been chasing electrons for 70 of my 84 years, and I can
> categoricly state that fellow Murphy, who wrote all those laws, was a
> pessimist. His "whatever can go wrong, will", is an understatement. Even
> if it cannot go wrong, it will.

You mean he was optimist and you are realist? :)

I also bet on "whatever can go wrong, will" - saved my a** many times
already.
Another great rule I use is "check, double check and then you can check
whatever the f**k you wanna check"

Unfort. it is time consuming - increases costs - of course it delivers
quality, but the cost factor compared to some chinese, indian or other
emerging countries is becoming recently a big problem. You might be lucky
to have missed that.

regards

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#200542

On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:51:27PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> 
> I've been experiencing a great deal of frustration recently with
> intermittent freezes / crashes on my Debian Sid system (a Lenovo
> W550s). The symptoms are that the screen totally freezes and the system
> becomes completely unresponsive (even ssh attempts from another machine
> fail), and the only thing that seems to have any effect is a hard
> reboot (holding down the power button until the system restarts).
> 
> Upon reboot, I can't find anything at all interesting in 'journalctl -b
> -1', or /var/log/syslog - the former just shows everything looking
> normal until the moment of the crash, at which point the log just ends,
> and the latter also just shows everything seeming to be fine until the
> moment of the crash, and then shows the boot messages from the reboot.
> 
> Any ideas of what could be causing this, or how I could go about
> debugging it? I've been using this machine for years without
> experiencing anything like this, and I'm not sure for how long this has
> been a problem. I did recently upgrade from stable to unstable, but I'm
> not sure whether or not the problem's initial occurences coincide with
> the upgrade.


How long have you waited before you reboot?  I occasionally (pretty 
rarely, thankfully) get freezes on my Lenovo T400 running Debian 9
Stretch (stable) and I used to think I would have to hard reboot it 
like you do, but I noticed that they actually get fixed if I wait up to 
a few minutes.  Never timed them but the longest probably lasted more 
than five minutes.  Usually they're less than a minute.  

When these freezes happen, it seems it is relatively soon after starting 
to use the laptop after it's been suspended overnight or so.  They're 
rare, though.  I didn't try ssh'ing at the time but everything is 
completely frozen.  And finally, these freezes didn't use to happen a 
year ago or earlier but it's been at least a few months that this has 
been going on.

Your machine and Debian version seem much newer but I thought I'd share 
my experience.

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#200623

On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:17:28 +0300
Selim T. Erdoğan <selim@alumni.cs.utexas.edu> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:51:27PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > I've been experiencing a great deal of frustration recently with
> > intermittent freezes / crashes on my Debian Sid system (a Lenovo
> > W550s). The symptoms are that the screen totally freezes and the system
> > becomes completely unresponsive (even ssh attempts from another machine
> > fail), and the only thing that seems to have any effect is a hard
> > reboot (holding down the power button until the system restarts).
> > 
> > Upon reboot, I can't find anything at all interesting in 'journalctl -b
> > -1', or /var/log/syslog - the former just shows everything looking
> > normal until the moment of the crash, at which point the log just ends,
> > and the latter also just shows everything seeming to be fine until the
> > moment of the crash, and then shows the boot messages from the reboot.
> > 
> > Any ideas of what could be causing this, or how I could go about
> > debugging it? I've been using this machine for years without
> > experiencing anything like this, and I'm not sure for how long this has
> > been a problem. I did recently upgrade from stable to unstable, but I'm
> > not sure whether or not the problem's initial occurences coincide with
> > the upgrade.
> 
> 
> How long have you waited before you reboot?  I occasionally (pretty 
> rarely, thankfully) get freezes on my Lenovo T400 running Debian 9
> Stretch (stable) and I used to think I would have to hard reboot it 
> like you do, but I noticed that they actually get fixed if I wait up to 
> a few minutes.  Never timed them but the longest probably lasted more 
> than five minutes.  Usually they're less than a minute.  

I don't usually (if ever) wait that long. If it happens again, I'll try
to wait it out a bit longer and see what happens.

> When these freezes happen, it seems it is relatively soon after starting 
> to use the laptop after it's been suspended overnight or so.  They're 
> rare, though.  I didn't try ssh'ing at the time but everything is 
> completely frozen.  And finally, these freezes didn't use to happen a 
> year ago or earlier but it's been at least a few months that this has 
> been going on.
> 
> Your machine and Debian version seem much newer but I thought I'd share 
> my experience.

Thanks - I just wish I understood what the problem is, how to
diagnose it properly, and even more importantly, how to fix it.

Celejar

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