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some questions about cfengine3

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  some questions about cfengine3 Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-03-26 11:20 +0200
    Re: some questions about cfengine3 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-03-26 15:00 +0200
      Re: some questions about cfengine3 Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-03-26 22:50 +0200
        Re: some questions about cfengine3 <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-03-26 23:30 +0200
          Re: some questions about cfengine3 Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-03-27 10:10 +0200
            Re: some questions about cfengine3 <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-03-27 10:10 +0200
    Re: some questions about cfengine3 deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 21:00 +0200
      Re: some questions about cfengine3 Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-03-27 11:30 +0200
        Re: some questions about cfengine3 <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-03-27 12:20 +0200
          Re: some questions about cfengine3 Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-03-27 16:10 +0200
            Re: some questions about cfengine3 <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-03-27 16:30 +0200
            Re: some questions about cfengine3 deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 20:40 +0200
              Re: some questions about cfengine3 Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2018-03-28 07:00 +0200

#194174 — some questions about cfengine3

Hello.

I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be found
in Debian.

* binaries seems to be located into /usr/local/sbin/, is there is a
  reason for this (not important but intriguing, sounds very unusual
  from Debian AFAIK)?
* in /etc/defaults/cfengine3, there is a mention of something
  named /usr/share/doc/cfengine3/examples, but this folder does not
  exists. Since the binaries seems to not be placed in the
  usual /usr/[s]bin location, I also looked at /usr/local/share/doc,
  but nothing, and I can not find any packages that seems to contain
  cfengine3's documentation (I have manpages installed, but they don't
  tell a lot)?
* I would like to use runit to manage those processes, but running
  cf-agent -B $IP as described in various tutorials I have found
  starts (after some warning messages and what I would consider a very
  long time, but it works. Maybe a reverse DNS thing, since I
  did the testing into a virtual network without DHCPd nor DNSd, I'll
  investigate on that later.) 3 processes that goes to background. I
  would like to know if someone have some pointer about how to do that?

Thanks.

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#194178

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:37:08AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be found
> in Debian.
> 
> * binaries seems to be located into /usr/local/sbin/, is there is a
>   reason for this (not important but intriguing, sounds very unusual
>   from Debian AFAIK)?

Which version of the package, on which branch of Debian?  The stable
package's file list
<https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/cfengine3/filelist>
does not show anything under /usr/local.

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#194187

Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:54:22 -0400,
Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> a écrit :

> On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:37:08AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be
> > found in Debian.
> > 
> > * binaries seems to be located into /usr/local/sbin/, is there is a
> >   reason for this (not important but intriguing, sounds very unusual
> >   from Debian AFAIK)?  
> 
> Which version of the package, on which branch of Debian?  The stable
> package's file list
> <https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/cfengine3/filelist>
> does not show anything under /usr/local.
> 

It is the 3.9.1-4.2 version, but by looking more precisely, I noticed
that this content is only symlinks to /var/lib/cfengine/bin, which
itself is a symlink to /usr/sbin... still strange, but I guess they are
installed by some script in the deb.

-- 
SGA Automation
27 Rue Jean-Philippe Rameau
Pôle Delta
76000 Rouen
Tel : 02 32 10 38 53
Fax : 02 32 10 11 30
www.sga-automation.com
Email : berenger.morel@sga-automation.com

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#194188

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On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 03:33:19PM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:54:22 -0400,
> Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> a écrit :
> 
> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:37:08AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > > I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be
> > > found in Debian.
> > > 
> > > * binaries seems to be located into /usr/local/sbin/, is there is a
> > >   reason for this (not important but intriguing, sounds very unusual
> > >   from Debian AFAIK)?  
> > 
> > Which version of the package, on which branch of Debian?  The stable
> > package's file list
> > <https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/cfengine3/filelist>
> > does not show anything under /usr/local.
> > 
> 
> It is the 3.9.1-4.2 version, but by looking more precisely, I noticed
> that this content is only symlinks to /var/lib/cfengine/bin, which
> itself is a symlink to /usr/sbin... still strange, but I guess they are
> installed by some script in the deb.

Hmm. Looking at the filelist:

  https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/cfengine3/filelist

I don't see anything in /usr/local?

I just installed it (the version you mention above is stretch). It doesn't
seem to touch /usr/local on my box.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#194201

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 23:22:37 +0200,
<tomas@tuxteam.de> a écrit :

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> 
> On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 03:33:19PM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:54:22 -0400,
> > Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> a écrit :
> >   
> > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:37:08AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:  
> > > > I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be
> > > > found in Debian.
> > > > 
> > > > * binaries seems to be located into /usr/local/sbin/, is there
> > > > is a reason for this (not important but intriguing, sounds very
> > > > unusual from Debian AFAIK)?    
> > > 
> > > Which version of the package, on which branch of Debian?  The
> > > stable package's file list
> > > <https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/cfengine3/filelist>
> > > does not show anything under /usr/local.
> > >   
> > 
> > It is the 3.9.1-4.2 version, but by looking more precisely, I
> > noticed that this content is only symlinks
> > to /var/lib/cfengine/bin, which itself is a symlink to /usr/sbin...
> > still strange, but I guess they are installed by some script in the
> > deb.  
> 
> Hmm. Looking at the filelist:
> 
>   https://packages.debian.org/stretch/amd64/cfengine3/filelist
> 
> I don't see anything in /usr/local?
> 
> I just installed it (the version you mention above is stretch). It
> doesn't seem to touch /usr/local on my box.

Oh, I was confused by all my manipulations, I guess at some point I
installed something from the outside, sorry for that (now I know why it
seemed strange to me to have things in /usr/local...).


-- 
SGA Automation
27 Rue Jean-Philippe Rameau
Pôle Delta
76000 Rouen
Tel : 02 32 10 38 53
Fax : 02 32 10 11 30
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Email : berenger.morel@sga-automation.com

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#194202

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On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 09:23:11AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:

[...]

> Oh, I was confused by all my manipulations, I guess at some point I
> installed something from the outside, sorry for that
>                                                      (now I know why it

No worries. Things happen. That makes life exciting :-)

> seemed strange to me to have things in /usr/local...).

Yes, that would have been a packaging bug, I think.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#194183

Morel Bérenger wrote:

> I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be found
> in Debian.

if you have not to maintain legacy, I recommend ansible or puppet. 

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#194205

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Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:48:31 +0200,
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> a écrit :

> Morel Bérenger wrote:
> 
> > I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be
> > found in Debian.  
> 
> if you have not to maintain legacy, I recommend ansible or puppet. 
> 

May I ask why? I must admit I don't know all those things a lot, even
if I did read a lot about them.
I should say I'm not even sure that kind of tool is the right one for
the task I have in mind: managing a fleet of systems that connect
through radio connections (3G, 4G, GSM, depends on what we'll have on
places, I guess).

-- 
SGA Automation
27 Rue Jean-Philippe Rameau
Pôle Delta
76000 Rouen
Tel : 02 32 10 38 53
Fax : 02 32 10 11 30
www.sga-automation.com
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#194206

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On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:10:10AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:48:31 +0200,
> deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
> > Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > 
> > > I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be
> > > found in Debian.  
> > 
> > if you have not to maintain legacy, I recommend ansible or puppet. 
> > 
> 
> May I ask why? I must admit I don't know all those things a lot, even
> if I did read a lot about them.

It really depends on your needs/tastes/team.

Cfengine is by far the smallest and least dependent (1.8MB installed
size, no big interpreter). Ansible is 12.8MB, depends on Python (which
will most probably be on your distro anyway) and a bunch of Python
modules. Puppet is 5.9MB and depends on Ruby.

The last two are what the cool kids are doing these days, cfengine is
considerably older -- but most probably simpler to understand.

I think you'll have to look into all of them and judge (yeah, I know ;-)

> I should say I'm not even sure that kind of tool is the right one for
> the task I have in mind: managing a fleet of systems that connect
> through radio connections (3G, 4G, GSM, depends on what we'll have on
> places, I guess).

I think those systems help you in managing similar but slightly
different configurations for many systems. So you seem to be right
with that.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#194215

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Le Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:15:41 +0200,
<tomas@tuxteam.de> a écrit :

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> 
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:10:10AM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > Le Mon, 26 Mar 2018 20:48:31 +0200,
> > deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> a écrit :
> >   
> > > Morel Bérenger wrote:
> > >   
> > > > I have several questions about the cfengine3 package that can be
> > > > found in Debian.    
> > > 
> > > if you have not to maintain legacy, I recommend ansible or
> > > puppet. 
> > 
> > May I ask why? I must admit I don't know all those things a lot,
> > even if I did read a lot about them.  
> 
> It really depends on your needs/tastes/team.
> 
> Cfengine is by far the smallest and least dependent (1.8MB installed
> size, no big interpreter). Ansible is 12.8MB, depends on Python (which
> will most probably be on your distro anyway) and a bunch of Python
> modules. Puppet is 5.9MB and depends on Ruby.
> 
> The last two are what the cool kids are doing these days, cfengine is
> considerably older -- but most probably simpler to understand.
> 
> I think you'll have to look into all of them and judge (yeah, I
> know ;-)

I am not really constrained about mass storage (I mean, embedding a
Debian system on 1Gb is easy enough, and our systems does not have less
than 4Gb) but on bandwidth, so I guess I'm better to go with the
smallest (considering that no, python is not needed in our systems and
so, absent), cfengine3 according to you?

Also, I'm the only one at work which have ever heard of that kind
of tools, so I'm basically free to take whatever I want, and I've never
really cared about «coolness» of systems.
If I could only work with softwares that are older than me and simple
enough to not require updates every 2 months, I would be a happy coder.

> 
> > I should say I'm not even sure that kind of tool is the right one
> > for the task I have in mind: managing a fleet of systems that
> > connect through radio connections (3G, 4G, GSM, depends on what
> > we'll have on places, I guess).  
> 
> I think those systems help you in managing similar but slightly
> different configurations for many systems. So you seem to be right
> with that.

Thanks for the informations.

-- 
SGA Automation
27 Rue Jean-Philippe Rameau
Pôle Delta
76000 Rouen
Tel : 02 32 10 38 53
Fax : 02 32 10 11 30
www.sga-automation.com
Email : berenger.morel@sga-automation.com

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#194216

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On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 02:44:18PM +0200, Morel Bérenger wrote:
> Le Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:15:41 +0200,
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> a écrit :

[...]

> > It really depends on your needs/tastes/team.

[...]

> I am not really constrained about mass storage (I mean, embedding a
> Debian system on 1Gb is easy enough, and our systems does not have less
> than 4Gb) but on bandwidth, so I guess I'm better to go with the
> smallest (considering that no, python is not needed in our systems and
> so, absent), cfengine3 according to you?

True. I do usually use "size" as a very rough metric for "complexity",
so I tend to look first at the smallest package. That said...

> Also, I'm the only one at work which have ever heard of that kind
> of tools, so I'm basically free to take whatever I want, and I've never
> really cared about «coolness» of systems.
> If I could only work with softwares that are older than me and simple
> enough to not require updates every 2 months, I would be a happy coder.

... I've seen others using puppet and ansible, but can't provide you
with first-hand experience, sorry.

> Thanks for the informations.

I wish I could be more helpful, sorry.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#194225

Morel Bérenger wrote:

> I am not really constrained about mass storage (I mean, embedding a
> Debian system on 1Gb is easy enough, and our systems does not have less
> than 4Gb) but on bandwidth, so I guess I'm better to go with the
> smallest (considering that no, python is not needed in our systems and
> so, absent), cfengine3 according to you?
> 
> Also, I'm the only one at work which have ever heard of that kind
> of tools, so I'm basically free to take whatever I want, and I've never
> really cared about «coolness» of systems.
> If I could only work with softwares that are older than me and simple
> enough to not require updates every 2 months, I would be a happy coder.

I used cfengine like 10y ago. It was difficult to manage for large scale.
For ansible I create a local python3 environment (dedicated user) on the
controlling server and the rest is yaml and git. On the managed side it is
good to have minimal python, if you don't want to use the raw command, but
take advantage of higher functionality. I like the yaml syntax.
It works via ssh in my case. It is fast and simple to manage.
The advantage of python env is that you don't have to update if it works
(think of chroot).

Another project I worked on was using Saltstack, but IMO it is more
complicated (it also depends on python) and it has daemons running.
I don't have experience with puppet.

I hope it helped

regards

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#194231

Hi,

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 08:30:44PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> I don't have experience with puppet.

I am in the process of migrating a Puppet setup that's been in use
and development for ~8 years to Ansible.

Although it is a fairly simple manifest, managing only 47 hosts, the
rate of change within the puppet project itself became too much for
me. The changing of the dsl syntax, directory layouts, binary names,
supported methods of running the master, language used to implement
the software, complex version dependencies between client and
server… I can't keep up with it. This may be a personal failing but
it's where I am now.

Puppet has definitely spoiled me because it's so powerful. Even
though what I'm doing with it is fairly simple and I'm not very far
into my migration I am finding things that are a little tricky to
express in Ansible. But each time I hit a bump I eventually get past
it, and the result is just simpler, so I am optimistic. I think/hope
that having only one environment to manage (the place that Ansible
runs from) will really help.

Cheers,
Andy

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https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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