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Wheezy to Stretch

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  Wheezy to Stretch "Kleene, Steven (kleenesj)" <kleenesj@UCMAIL.UC.EDU> - 2018-02-21 19:00 +0100
    Re: Wheezy to Stretch Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-02-21 19:20 +0100
      Re: Wheezy to Stretch Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-02-21 19:40 +0100
    Re: Wheezy to Stretch Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2018-02-21 19:50 +0100
      Re: Wheezy to Stretch deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 20:20 +0100
        Re: Wheezy to Stretch Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2018-02-21 20:30 +0100
          Re: Wheezy to Stretch deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 21:20 +0100
      Re: Wheezy to Stretch john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2018-02-21 20:20 +0100
      Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 21:50 +0100
        Re: Wheezy to Stretch Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2018-02-21 22:00 +0100
        Re: Wheezy to Stretch rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-02-22 04:10 +0100
          Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 08:10 +0100
            Re: Wheezy to Stretch rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-02-22 14:10 +0100
            Re: Wheezy to Stretch Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2018-02-22 15:00 +0100
              Re: Wheezy to Stretch deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 18:40 +0100
                RE: Wheezy to Stretch "Kleene, Steven (kleenesj)" <kleenesj@UCMAIL.UC.EDU> - 2018-02-22 18:50 +0100
        Re: Wheezy to Stretch Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 11:30 +0100
    Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 19:50 +0100
      Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 22:00 +0100
        Re: Wheezy to Stretch Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-02-21 22:10 +0100
          Re: Wheezy to Stretch Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2018-02-21 22:40 +0100
            Re: Wheezy to Stretch Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-02-21 23:00 +0100
              Re: Wheezy to Stretch Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2018-02-21 23:20 +0100
                Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 01:00 +0100
          Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 22:40 +0100
        Re: Wheezy to Stretch deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 22:40 +0100
          Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-21 22:50 +0100
            Re: Wheezy to Stretch Karol Augustin <karol@augustin.pl> - 2018-02-21 23:20 +0100
              Re: Wheezy to Stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 01:20 +0100
            Re: Wheezy to Stretch deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 08:20 +0100
              Re: Wheezy to Stretch Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2018-02-22 11:20 +0100
    Re: Wheezy to Stretch Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 03:50 +0100

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#192852

On 2018-02-21 16:01 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:58:11PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something
>> to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new
>> system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch.
>
> There is.  It's just not the default.

Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to
Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you
will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual
upgrade, e.g. like this:

# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# dpkg --purge --force-remove-essential sysvinit

Other than that, on a fairly minimal chroot this worked surprisingly
well.  However, on a system with ~2000 packages I would rather not try
it.  There are certainly many other cases where you will be left with
old packages without an obvious upgrade path, obsolete conffiles,
directories which should be symlinks or vice versa and other issues
which are not immediately obvious but may bite you many months later.

Cheers,
       Sven

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#192856

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:15PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:
> Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to
> Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you
> will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual
> upgrade, e.g. like this:

Moot argument.  You don't *DO* a direct upgrade from wheezy to stretch
in the first place.  You go wheezy->jessie, and then jessie->stretch.

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#192860

On 2018-02-21 16:49 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:15PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:
>> Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to
>> Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you
>> will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual
>> upgrade, e.g. like this:
>
> Moot argument.  You don't *DO* a direct upgrade from wheezy to stretch
> in the first place.  You go wheezy->jessie, and then jessie->stretch.

Certainly.  I only mentioned this because Jimmy had suggested the
reckless method of directly upgrading from Wheezy to Stretch, and I was
curious how badly it would break.

Cheers,
       Sven

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#192862

On 02/21/2018 02:18 PM, Sven Joachim wrote:
> On 2018-02-21 16:49 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:39:15PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:
>>> Speaking of sysvinit, one problem with a direct upgrade from Wheezy to
>>> Stretch is that there is no _package_ named sysvinit in Stretch, so you
>>> will be left with the old sysvinit from Wheezy and have to do a manual
>>> upgrade, e.g. like this:
>>
>> Moot argument.  You don't *DO* a direct upgrade from wheezy to stretch
>> in the first place.  You go wheezy->jessie, and then jessie->stretch.
> 
> Certainly.  I only mentioned this because Jimmy had suggested the
> reckless method of directly upgrading from Wheezy to Stretch, and I was
> curious how badly it would break.


It's sicking the people who talk with authority about things they have 
never done and I don't care if they read something somewhere, doing is 
knowing.

Cheers,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Wheezy - KDE 4.8.4 - Intel i7-3540M - EXT4 at sda10
Registered Linux User #380263

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#192854

On 02/21/2018 01:01 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:58:11PM -0800, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and something
>> to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work format and do a new
>> system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in Stretch.
> 
> There is.  It's just not the default.\

I had to boot stretch to double check my memory and there is no 
"sysvinit", you do have sysv-rc, sysv-rc-conf, sysvinit-core and 
sysvinit-utils and yes I do know that you can run a sysvinit system with 
those files or so it seems.

I'll let the OP choose what he wants to do.

Cheers,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson - "The Linux Tester"

Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9
Registered Linux User #380263

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#192853

Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and
> something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work
> format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in
> Stretch.

OK, I have a question:
Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers?

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#192855

On 02/21/2018 01:31 PM, deloptes wrote:
> Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> 
>> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and
>> something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work
>> format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in
>> Stretch.
> 
> OK, I have a question:
> Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers?

I never said that!  But I do know what I'm talking about because I do 
what I'm talking about constantly.

I have a question for you.  Why do your emails wind up in my spam box 
where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked 
your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system 
knows something about you that I don't know.

Cheers,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson - The Linux Tester

Ubuntu 18.04 LTS - KDE Plasma 5.12.1 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9
Registered Linux User #380263

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#192857

On 2018-02-21 21:42, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 02/21/2018 01:31 PM, deloptes wrote:
>> Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and
>>> something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work
>>> format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in
>>> Stretch.
>>
>> OK, I have a question:
>> Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers?
> 
> I never said that!  But I do know what I'm talking about because I do
> what I'm talking about constantly.
> 
> I have a question for you.  Why do your emails wind up in my spam box
> where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked
> your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system
> knows something about you that I don't know.

Its because Deloptes is using an e-mail to news gateway with his gmail
address. As you are also using gmail it is marked as spam/phishing as
DMARC fails because the mail is sent using third party servers to reach
Debian mailing list instead of Google's.

Even though gmail DMARC policy is "none" i think they mark messages
without DKIM from gmail domain as spam to protect themselves. It might
be hard to fix as even if you repeatedly mark Deloptes' emails as not
spam it probably won't help.

You can try adding him to contacts if you desire. If you are using
Android you will also have his e-mail address on your phone for quick
access anytime you might need to reach him...

k.


-- 
Karol Augustin
karol@augustin.pl
http://karolaugustin.pl/
+353 85 775 5312

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#192863

On 02/21/2018 02:10 PM, Karol Augustin wrote:
> On 2018-02-21 21:42, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> On 02/21/2018 01:31 PM, deloptes wrote:
>>> Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> For all the "Na" Sayers here, nothing lost except for sometime and
>>>> something to gan the system you want and if you can't make it work
>>>> format and do a new system, but remember there is no "sysvinit" in
>>>> Stretch.
>>>
>>> OK, I have a question:
>>> Why do you think you are smarter than all Debian developers?
>>
>> I never said that!  But I do know what I'm talking about because I do
>> what I'm talking about constantly.
>>
>> I have a question for you.  Why do your emails wind up in my spam box
>> where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked
>> your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system
>> knows something about you that I don't know.
> 
> Its because Deloptes is using an e-mail to news gateway with his gmail
> address. As you are also using gmail it is marked as spam/phishing as
> DMARC fails because the mail is sent using third party servers to reach
> Debian mailing list instead of Google's.

I'm using my gmail account's smtp.gmail server. But thanks.

> Even though gmail DMARC policy is "none" i think they mark messages
> without DKIM from gmail domain as spam to protect themselves. It might
> be hard to fix as even if you repeatedly mark Deloptes' emails as not
> spam it probably won't help.
> 
> You can try adding him to contacts if you desire. If you are using
> Android you will also have his e-mail address on your phone for quick
> access anytime you might need to reach him...
> 
> k.

Cheers,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Wheezy - KDE 4.8.4 - Intel i7-3540M - EXT4 at sda10
Registered Linux User #380263

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#192874

Jimmy Johnson wrote:

> I never said that!  But I do know what I'm talking about because I do
> what I'm talking about constantly.
> 

you have said that, because in the official upgrade notes, as Roberto
pointed out, it says you can go only one level up at a time.
Perhaps your setup has nothing special and you have not hit the fan (yet),
but it does not mean that what is working for you may work for everybody,
while what Debian has recommended works indeed for everybody.

> I have a question for you.  Why do your emails wind up in my spam box
> where I have to fish them out? I have never black-listed you or marked
> your email as spam yet you keep going to my spam box, maybe my system
> knows something about you that I don't know.

I have no influence either on the communication channel, or on your spam
filter(s). I really have no idea. It might be your mail server does not
like me much

regards

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#192876

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 08:17:43AM +0100, deloptes wrote:
> Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> > I never said that!  But I do know what I'm talking about because I do
> > what I'm talking about constantly.
> 
> you have said that, because in the official upgrade notes, as Roberto
> pointed out, it says you can go only one level up at a time.

I too have done quite a few in-place upgrades where I've skipped
releases.

In an ideal world I will be deploying a virtual machine straight out
of config management so it's quicker to just destroy it and deploy a
new one than it is to upgrade an existing one. But occasionally I
have to work on some VMs where they're neglected snowflakes and the
goal is to bring them up to the current stable release.

Since I can just snapshot them and revert to that in the event of
catastrophe I am sometimes willing to give skipping a release a try.
If it goes terribly wrong I can revert the snapshot and do it one
release at a time like you're supposed to.

Most of the time it's worked fine. I still wouldn't recommend anyone
else to try it though, because some of the time it has gone very
badly.

IIRC there were some releases where you just couldn't skip through
them due to kernel and udev changes. It might have been when trying
to go from etch to squeeze without visiting lenny first.

Then other times there were problems with specific packages. Since
it is explicitly not supported to do this, it's no surprise that
some packages break when you try it. I'm surprised it works as well
as it does as often as it does.

It doesn't really save all that much time. I mean, it's only going
to be a reboot or two extra per release.

Or course the worst case is that something goes wrong but it's not
immediately obvious so you call the job done and only discover the
issue after a long period of time, maybe then not even being able to
prove it was some issue caused by the way you chose to upgrade as
opposed to something else you did in the intervening time. I've
never had that happen to me, but it seems like a risk that has to be
considered. As I mostly only ever try this on virtual machines they
are already quite simple things dedicated to a single task, and I
think that helps in spotting aberrant behaviour.

So yeah it mostly works, but even speaking as someone who does it,
it's not something I'd recommend without fully appreciating the
dangers. I've had it break badly!

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#192870

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:45:51 +0000 "Kleene, Steven (kleenesj)"
<kleenesj@UCMAIL.UC.EDU> wrote:

> I am running Wheezy (v7 = oldoldstable) and intend to replace it with
> a fresh install of Stretch (v9 = stable) before Wheezy's support runs
> out on May 31st.  I will try the default systemd installation and see
> how I like it.
> 
> After the installation, I will want to build my system from my
> favorite window manager (fvwm).  With sysvinit, I would set
> initdefault to runlevel 3 in /etc/inittab.  In /etc/rc3.d, I would
> rename gdm3 so that I would boot into a terminal interface (command
> line) instead of Gnome.  Then I would quickly install fvwm, call
> startx, and happily finish building.

Just install a "terminal only" system first.  That is no X, no display
manager, no window manager, etc. I used the Netinstall ISO. Then
install what you want piece by piece. This is what I did with both
Wheezy and Stretch.

For Stretch, the init conversion -- systemd to sysvinit -- is a simple,
as root,  'apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils' IIRC.  You
don't have to "uninstall" systemd.  The sysvinit-core install takes care
of everything so systemd won't run, but the systemd libraries remain for
those apps that have them as dependencies.

These are the instructions I used.  Just the Required Steps:

   http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

> I know systemd doesn't have inittab.  Will the default installation
> leave me with a terminal interface whenever I boot?  If not, how will
> I accomplish that?

With both my systems, I boot directly to a terminal by default which was
what I wanted.  Didn't have to do anything special.

> I also thought I had read about some problem with window
> authentication in Stretch, but I can't find any such posts now.

I've never had any problems, but I use Openbox instead of fvwm.

B

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