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What is Synaptic trying to tell me?

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  What is Synaptic trying to tell me? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-01-18 22:20 +0100
    Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-19 02:00 +0100
      Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-01-20 14:20 +0100
        Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-20 17:10 +0100
    Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-01-19 05:40 +0100
      Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-01-20 14:20 +0100
        Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-01-20 15:20 +0100
          Re: What is Synaptic trying to tell me? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-01-20 17:10 +0100

#191282 — What is Synaptic trying to tell me?

I've been exploring the idea of downloading several packages.
When I select "apply" it routinely says "1 package will be held back and 
not upgraded" in the lower half of a screen titled "Summary (as superuser)".

In both the upper and lower half of that screen I can discover what 
packages will be downloaded I can click appropriately and be informed 
that a list of packages will be downloaded. They are always what I 
wanted/expected. So far, so good ;/

Today I got curious.
In the lower half of the screen I clicked the button labeled "Show 
Details". It listed *ONLY* the expected/intended files.

In the upper half of the screen I observed that clicking on the ">" 
labeled "To be installed" I observed the same files as listed in 
response to "Show Details".

*HOWEVER* when clicking on the ">" labeled "Unchanged" it listed 
"linux-image-686-pae". Why? Less than 2 weeks ago I chose to install the 
i386 flavor of current point release of Stretch. I was using "Expert 
Install" and IIRC that was the default.

For years I've gotten the "1 package will be held back and not upgraded" 
message. That response is obviously release independent. Previous 
installs have been from purchased DVD sets.

This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is being 
held back.

Please educate me ;/

TIA

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#191291

On Thu 18 Jan 2018 at 15:13:12 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> I've been exploring the idea of downloading several packages.
> When I select "apply" it routinely says "1 package will be held back
> and not upgraded" in the lower half of a screen titled "Summary (as
> superuser)".
> 
> In both the upper and lower half of that screen I can discover what
> packages will be downloaded I can click appropriately and be
> informed that a list of packages will be downloaded. They are always
> what I wanted/expected. So far, so good ;/
> 
> Today I got curious.
> In the lower half of the screen I clicked the button labeled "Show
> Details". It listed *ONLY* the expected/intended files.
> 
> In the upper half of the screen I observed that clicking on the ">"
> labeled "To be installed" I observed the same files as listed in
> response to "Show Details".
> 
> *HOWEVER* when clicking on the ">" labeled "Unchanged" it listed
> "linux-image-686-pae". Why? Less than 2 weeks ago I chose to install
> the i386 flavor of current point release of Stretch. I was using
> "Expert Install" and IIRC that was the default.
> 
> For years I've gotten the "1 package will be held back and not
> upgraded" message. That response is obviously release independent.
> Previous installs have been from purchased DVD sets.
> 
> This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is
> being held back.
> 
> Please educate me ;/

Packages are normally held back when upgrading them would involve
removing a package or installing a new one, and that is forbidden
by the upgrade method you're using.

So, for example, apt-get dist-upgrade was recently needed to upgrade
linux-image against Meltdown because a new package was being
installed. (Substitute "apt-get dist-upgrade" accordingly.)

BTW when installing a kernel image (and related packages), you should
select the least specific generic package (like linux-image-686-pae)
rather than the versioned one. Because the new kernel was a new
package (-4 → -5), it wouldn't be seen as an upgrade except as a
dependency of the generic package.

Cheers,
David.

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#191361

On 01/18/2018 06:59 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Thu 18 Jan 2018 at 15:13:12 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> I've been exploring the idea of downloading several packages.
>> When I select "apply" it routinely says "1 package will be held back
>> and not upgraded" in the lower half of a screen titled "Summary (as
>> superuser)".
>>
>> In both the upper and lower half of that screen I can discover what
>> packages will be downloaded I can click appropriately and be
>> informed that a list of packages will be downloaded. They are always
>> what I wanted/expected. So far, so good ;/
>>
>> Today I got curious.
>> In the lower half of the screen I clicked the button labeled "Show
>> Details". It listed *ONLY* the expected/intended files.
>>
>> In the upper half of the screen I observed that clicking on the ">"
>> labeled "To be installed" I observed the same files as listed in
>> response to "Show Details".
>>
>> *HOWEVER* when clicking on the ">" labeled "Unchanged" it listed
>> "linux-image-686-pae". Why? Less than 2 weeks ago I chose to install
>> the i386 flavor of current point release of Stretch. I was using
>> "Expert Install" and IIRC that was the default.
>>
>> For years I've gotten the "1 package will be held back and not
>> upgraded" message. That response is obviously release independent.
>> Previous installs have been from purchased DVD sets.
>>
>> This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is
>> being held back.
>>
>> Please educate me ;/
> 
> Packages are normally held back when upgrading them would involve
> removing a package or installing a new one, and that is forbidden
> by the upgrade method you're using.
> 
> So, for example, apt-get dist-upgrade was recently needed to upgrade
> linux-image against Meltdown because a new package was being
> installed. (Substitute "apt-get dist-upgrade" accordingly.)

I don't understand the point you were trying convey saying
*(Substitute "apt-get dist-upgrade" accordingly.)* when having just said 
"for example, apt-get dist-upgrade was recently needed".

I've just done:
   apt-get update
   apt-get dist-upgrade
which I believe is what you intended.

> 
> BTW when installing a kernel image (and related packages), you should
> select the least specific generic package (like linux-image-686-pae)
> rather than the versioned one. Because the new kernel was a new
> package (-4 → -5), it wouldn't be seen as an upgrade except as a
> dependency of the generic package.
> 

I habitually use "expert install" for historical (hysterical ;) reasons.
I've been in the habit of accepting the suggested kernel.
But I've yet to find a reference listing the kernels offered and their 
features.
Part of my reasoning for using "expert install" almost from the first is 
that it makes me aware of what happens behind the scene.

Thank you.



> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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#191365

On Sat 20 Jan 2018 at 07:13:28 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 01/18/2018 06:59 PM, David Wright wrote:

> >Packages are normally held back when upgrading them would involve
> >removing a package or installing a new one, and that is forbidden
> >by the upgrade method you're using.
> >
> >So, for example, apt-get dist-upgrade was recently needed to upgrade
> >linux-image against Meltdown because a new package was being
> >installed. (Substitute "apt-get dist-upgrade" accordingly.)
> 
> I don't understand the point you were trying convey saying
> *(Substitute "apt-get dist-upgrade" accordingly.)* when having just
> said "for example, apt-get dist-upgrade was recently needed".

I speak "apt-get", but I'm not a polyglot so you will have to
permute these:

apt aptitude synaptic get update upgrade dist safe full and lastly "-"

into your favourite command with suitable arguments by means of
diligent comparison of their man pages.

> >BTW when installing a kernel image (and related packages), you should
> >select the least specific generic package (like linux-image-686-pae)
> >rather than the versioned one. Because the new kernel was a new
> >package (-4 → -5), it wouldn't be seen as an upgrade except as a
> >dependency of the generic package.
> >
> 
> I habitually use "expert install" for historical (hysterical ;) reasons.
> I've been in the habit of accepting the suggested kernel.
> But I've yet to find a reference listing the kernels offered and
> their features.

In this screen, which you will have encountered, you should install
the middle line unless you have particular reason not to:

  ┌───────────────────────────────┤ [?] Install the base system
  ├───────────────────────────────┐   
  │
  │   
  │ The list shows the available kernels. Please choose one of them in
  order to make the        │   
  │ system bootable from the hard drive.
  │   
  │
  │   
  │ Kernel to install:
  │   
  │
  │   
  │                                linux-image-4.9.0-4-amd64
  │   
  │                                linux-image-amd64
  │   
  │                                none
  │   
  │
  │   
  │     <Go Back>
  │   
  │
  │   
  └─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘   

On an older PC, you might have a more important choice to make:

  ┌─────────────────────────┤ [?] Install the base system
  ├─────────────────────────┐   
  │
  │   
  │ The list shows the available kernels. Please choose one of them in
  order to     │   
  │ make the system bootable from the hard drive.
  │   
  │
  │   
  │ Kernel to install:
  │   
  │
  │   
  │                           linux-image-4.9.0-2-686
  │   
  │                           linux-image-586
  │   
  │                           linux-image-686
  │   
  │                           none
  │   
  │
  │   
  │     <Go Back>
  │   
  │
  │   
  └─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘   

At various times in the past there have been options like -486 and
-pae according to the CPU's features. IIRC all 686 kernels now
assume -pae, so this old laptop has to use:

$ uname -r
3.16.0-5-586
$ 

Cheers,
David.

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#191297

Richard Owlett wrote:
...
> This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is being 
> held back.
>
> Please educate me ;/

  check your settings -> preferences...


  songbird

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#191360

On 01/18/2018 10:32 PM, songbird wrote:
> Richard Owlett wrote:
> ...
>> This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is being
>> held back.
>>
>> Please educate me ;/
> 
>    check your settings -> preferences...> 
> 
>    songbird
> 
> 

I went there. I did not spot what you wanted me to notice :{
Thanks for trying.

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#191363

On 2018-01-20, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> On 01/18/2018 10:32 PM, songbird wrote:
>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>> ...
>>> This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is being
>>> held back.
>>>
>>> Please educate me ;/
>> 
>>    check your settings -> preferences...> 
>> 
>>    songbird
>> 
>> 
>
> I went there. I did not spot what you wanted me to notice :{
> Thanks for trying.
>

 Synaptic Package Manager provides two methods for marking packages for
 upgrade:
 
 Default Upgrade
 The default upgrade method marks upgrades of installed packages only. If
 the later version of a package depends on not installed packages or
 conflicts with an already installed package, the upgrade will not be
 marked.
 
 Smart Upgrade (Dist-Upgrade)
 The smart upgrade method tries to resolve package conflicts
 intelligently. This includes installing additional required packages and
 preferring packages with higher priority.
 Smart upgrade is also known as dist-upgrade in the console tool apt-get.

Maybe that is what the songbird is tweeting about.

 Settings/Preferences/General/System Upgrade/Always Ask--Default
 Upgrade--Smart Upgrade

-- 
“True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class
is running the country.” – Kurt Vonnegut

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#191366

On 01/20/2018 08:08 AM, Curt wrote:
> On 2018-01-20, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>> On 01/18/2018 10:32 PM, songbird wrote:
>>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> This is the *FIRST* time I have attempted to investigate what is being
>>>> held back.
>>>>
>>>> Please educate me ;/
>>>
>>>     check your settings -> preferences...>
>>>
>>>     songbird
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I went there. I did not spot what you wanted me to notice :{
>> Thanks for trying.
>>
> 
>   Synaptic Package Manager provides two methods for marking packages for
>   upgrade:
>   
>   Default Upgrade
>   The default upgrade method marks upgrades of installed packages only. If
>   the later version of a package depends on not installed packages or
>   conflicts with an already installed package, the upgrade will not be
>   marked.
>   
>   Smart Upgrade (Dist-Upgrade)
>   The smart upgrade method tries to resolve package conflicts
>   intelligently. This includes installing additional required packages and
>   preferring packages with higher priority.
>   Smart upgrade is also known as dist-upgrade in the console tool apt-get.
> 
> Maybe that is what the songbird is tweeting about.
> 
>   Settings/Preferences/General/System Upgrade/Always Ask--Default
>   Upgrade--Smart Upgrade
> 

I don't know.
Synaptic is currently set to "Smart Upgrade".
I don't recall having changed anything.
I've just changed it to "Always Ask". I prefer to forced to think first 
rather than "repent at leisure" ;/

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