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Dead computer after system shutdown.

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  Dead computer after system shutdown. Thomas George <lists@tomgeorge.info> - 2018-05-06 18:30 +0200
    Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-05-06 18:40 +0200
    Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-06 18:50 +0200
    Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Thomas George <lists@tomgeorge.info> - 2018-05-06 20:50 +0200
      Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> - 2018-05-06 21:30 +0200
        Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-05-06 23:00 +0200
          Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-05-07 04:20 +0200
            Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 05:20 +0200
              Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-05-07 06:30 +0200
                Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 08:20 +0200
                  Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2018-05-07 09:10 +0200
                    Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 22:00 +0200
                      Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2018-05-08 00:00 +0200
              Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-05-07 18:10 +0200
      Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2018-05-06 22:00 +0200
        Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Matthew Crews <mailinglists@mattcrews.com> - 2018-05-06 23:00 +0200
      Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-06 23:00 +0200
      Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-05-06 23:10 +0200
        Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Thomas George <lists@tomgeorge.info> - 2018-05-07 00:50 +0200
      Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now Mike McClain <mike.junk.46@att.net> - 2018-05-07 16:10 +0200
    Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-05-06 23:10 +0200

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#195351 — Dead computer after system shutdown.

Selected shutdown from the window manager and the operating system 
turned off the computer as usual. Tried to restart the computer from the 
switch on the desktop box but it was totally dead.

Where to look for the failure? CPU, motherboard, power supply or 
mechanical switch?

I never thought before about how the operating system shuts down the 
computer. I know there are two wires from the power supply which the 
desktop switch connects to turn on the power supply. How does the 
operating system turn it off?

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#195352

Hi,

Thomas George wrote:
> Tried to restart the computer from the switch on the desktop box but
> it was totally dead. [...]
> Where to look for the failure? CPU, motherboard, power supply or mechanical
> switch?

If it does not make any noise and lets not shine any light then the power
supply is the first suspect. (Including the classic: "Is it plugged in ?")


> How does the operating system turn it off?

My best guess is
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#195353

Thomas George composed on 2018-05-06 12:14 (UTC-0400):

> Selected shutdown from the window manager and the operating system 
> turned off the computer as usual. Tried to restart the computer from the 
> switch on the desktop box but it was totally dead.

> Where to look for the failure? CPU, motherboard, power supply or 
> mechanical switch?

If it was made between 2001 and 2004, good chance it's failed motherboard
capacitors. Otherwise, most likely candidate is PS failure, typically also from
failed caps. Overheating from dust accumulation can kill other components, CPU
in particular. Sometimes it can be the switch, and quickly repeated attempts or
stronger presses will eventually start it.

What brand and model PC or motherboard?

Cap replacement can often fix, but isn't necessarily worth the trouble and
expense unless you want to do the repair yourself. See http:://www.badcaps.net/

> I never thought before about how the operating system shuts down the 
> computer. I know there are two wires from the power supply which the 
> desktop switch connects to turn on the power supply. How does the 
> operating system turn it off?
> 
Software call to BIOS.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#195358 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Box is between two tables but managed to remove side cover and with 
mirror confirmed green light on motherboard. Unplugged power cord, green 
light goes out, reconnected power, green light on and power switch 
works, BIOS message Asus surge protection shut system down because of 
unstable power supply..

My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I 
be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?


On 05/06/2018 12:14 PM, Thomas George wrote:
> Selected shutdown from the window manager and the operating system 
> turned off the computer as usual. Tried to restart the computer from 
> the switch on the desktop box but it was totally dead.
>
> Where to look for the failure? CPU, motherboard, power supply or 
> mechanical switch?
>
> I never thought before about how the operating system shuts down the 
> computer. I know there are two wires from the power supply which the 
> desktop switch connects to turn on the power supply. How does the 
> operating system turn it off?
>
>
>

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#195360 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Am Sonntag, 6. Mai 2018, 20:36:50 CEST schrieb Thomas George:
Check the BIOS-Battery. It might be low of voltage and might thus have 
interferes with the bios, so that the "start" command was not correctly seen.

Check also the elkos, if they are blown thick, they are also a problem.

If there is something causing too much drain (failure on a component on the 
mainboard), then the power supply switches off at once. Sometimes memory makes 
trouble.

Good luck

Hans


> Box is between two tables but managed to remove side cover and with
> mirror confirmed green light on motherboard. Unplugged power cord, green
> light goes out, reconnected power, green light on and power switch
> works, BIOS message Asus surge protection shut system down because of
> unstable power supply..
> 
> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I
> be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?
> 
> On 05/06/2018 12:14 PM, Thomas George wrote:
> > Selected shutdown from the window manager and the operating system
> > turned off the computer as usual. Tried to restart the computer from
> > the switch on the desktop box but it was totally dead.
> > 
> > Where to look for the failure? CPU, motherboard, power supply or
> > mechanical switch?
> > 
> > I never thought before about how the operating system shuts down the
> > computer. I know there are two wires from the power supply which the
> > desktop switch connects to turn on the power supply. How does the
> > operating system turn it off?

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#195364 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:19:24PM +0200, Hans wrote:

[...]

> Check also the elkos, if they are blown thick, they are also a problem.
                 ^^^^^ electrolytic capacitors, for you non-German speakers :)

- -- t
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=TaeE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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#195379 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

On Sunday, May 06, 2018 04:57:13 PM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:19:24PM +0200, Hans wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Check also the elkos, if they are blown thick, they are also a problem.
> 
>                  ^^^^^ electrolytic capacitors, for you non-German speakers
> :)

Thank you!

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#195382 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

On 5/6/18, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 06, 2018 04:57:13 PM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:19:24PM +0200, Hans wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > Check also the elkos, if they are blown thick, they are also a problem.
>>
>>                  ^^^^^ electrolytic capacitors, for you non-German
>> speakers
>> :)
>
> Thank you!


Ditto because a quick Internet search is primarily bringing up pens.
That would have been a head scratcher where I'd have been wondering
what inference was being missed. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with ability to play favored movie WAY too many times k/t
Debian and SMPlayer *

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#195386 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

On Sunday 06 May 2018 23:10:54 Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:

> On 5/6/18, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 06, 2018 04:57:13 PM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >> On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:19:24PM +0200, Hans wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> > Check also the elkos, if they are blown thick, they are also a
> >> > problem.
> >>
> >>                  ^^^^^ electrolytic capacitors, for you non-German
> >> speakers
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> > Thank you!
>
> Ditto because a quick Internet search is primarily bringing up pens.
> That would have been a head scratcher where I'd have been wondering
> what inference was being missed. :)
>
> Cindy :)

Same here Cindy, and I've been chasing electrons to make them do usefull 
things for very close to 70 years.

FWIW, its been 55 of those years since I last saw a Telefunken radio so I 
have no clue what safety pressure release mechanism is used by the 
German speakers electrolytics today, but on our side of the small pond 
that laps at out right coast, the cans are scored on top so that they 
can finish the crack and relieve the pressure in a more or less 
non-destructive manner, but the tops will often visibly bulge quite a 
bit in the earlier stages of such a failure, so we look for domed tops 
as an indicator that *ESR is raising its ugly head in the power circuits 
and trouble is not far off.

Because these capacitors can get rid of heat thru the leads soldered to 
the mainboard as the majority of is it generated by the other end of the 
lead inside the capacitor, those areas of copper are often huge in 
comparison to a normal pcb trace so they can act as a heat sink.  And it 
can take enough heat to physically damage the board to actually free the 
failed capacitors from the board, get the thru holes cleaned out and new 
capacitors re-installed. IBM's mainboards are famously difficult to 
rework in that area.  And they got burnt by the bad caps a few years 
back just as badly as the cheap boards.

ESR*, Equivalent Series Resistance, the resistance of a capacitor when 
measured by a high frequency AC signal, typically 50 to 100 kilohertz.

This is very important in modern switching supplies, and a reading above 
2.5 ohms for a 100 u-f capacitor is enough to give it a new home in the 
trash can. Correspondingly lower for the larger capacitors.

Your trivia factoid for the evening. :)
-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#195389 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Gene Heskett wrote:

> FWIW, its been 55 of those years since I last saw a Telefunken radio so I
> have no clue what safety pressure release mechanism is used by the
> German speakers electrolytics today, but on our side of the small pond
> that laps at out right coast, the cans are scored on top so that they
> can finish the crack and relieve the pressure in a more or less
> non-destructive manner, but the tops will often visibly bulge quite a
> bit in the earlier stages of such a failure, so we look for domed tops
> as an indicator that *ESR is raising its ugly head in the power circuits
> and trouble is not far off.

Germans are faking a lot of things recently to keep the economy running. We
personally avoid buying German stuff, unless proven that is 100% German.
The introduced a law, that allows them to write "made in Germany" if only
1/3 or 2/3 of it is made in Germany. So that's why it works so well - they
produce in China, package or add some few parts in Germany and voilla -
they sell it as made in Germany.

Regarding the elcos I recall 2005 in the company, I was at that time, the
PCs started dieing. Few PCs even caught fire. We found out the reason were
few of the elcos. One sales person was working with Japanese companies and
he reported that there was a huge scandal regarding elcos. The Chinese have
stolen the formula from the Japanese, but did not translate the receipt
properly. A huge amount of elcos already sold were affected :D

regards
 

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#195392 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, 07 May 2018 08:14:05 +0200
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello deloptes,

>1/3 or 2/3 of it is made in Germany. So that's why it works so well -
>they produce in China, package or add some few parts in Germany and
>voilla - they sell it as made in Germany.

Hardly unique;  USA, UK, etc, etc. (ad nauseam) do the same thing.

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
It's not your heart, it's your bank I want to break
It's Yer Money - Wonder Stuff

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#195454 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Brad Rogers wrote:

> Hardly unique;  USA, UK, etc, etc. (ad nauseam) do the same thing.

well Germany was delivering always a good quality, but in the past couple of
years it dropped, because of this. USA and UK started first, so it must be
more than 10y there ... or they do not produce anything at all - services
and money laundering.
Very sad - it makes quality products really expensive and hard to find.

regards

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#195458 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, 07 May 2018 21:54:48 +0200
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello deloptes,

>years it dropped, because of this. USA and UK started first, so it must
>be more than 10y there ... or they do not produce anything at all -

Here in the UK, almost as long as I can remember.  It even applies to
meat;  "British" beef has often had only the last 'major' activity
performed here.  The carcass could some from somewhere in South America,
for example.

>Very sad - it makes quality products really expensive and hard to find.

True.   :-(

Rather Off Topic for DU though....

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Where will you be when the bodies burn?
The Gasman Cometh - Crass

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#195440 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

On 2018-05-07, Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/6/18, rhkramer@gmail.com <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 06, 2018 04:57:13 PM tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>>> On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:19:24PM +0200, Hans wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> > Check also the elkos, if they are blown thick, they are also a problem.
>>>
>>>                  ^^^^^ electrolytic capacitors, for you non-German
>>> speakers
>>> :)
>>
>> Thank you!
>
>
> Ditto because a quick Internet search is primarily bringing up pens.
> That would have been a head scratcher where I'd have been wondering
> what inference was being missed. :)

Yeah I surfed a few pages about moose herds blowing their tops.

> Cindy :)


-- 

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#195361 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Thomas George wrote:
> [...]
> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I 
> be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?
>

10 years is a good long time. Most bits you can figure 7-10 years on
average.


-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

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#195362 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Concur with this statement. Anything older than 7 years is on borrowed time for consumer-grade hardware.

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com), Swiss-based encrypted email.

-------- Original Message --------
On May 6, 2018, 12:44, Dan Purgert wrote:

> Thomas George wrote:
>> [...]
>> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I
>> be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?
>>
>
> 10 years is a good long time. Most bits you can figure 7-10 years on
> average.
>
> --
> |_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
> |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
> |O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

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#195363 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Thomas George composed on 2018-05-06 14:36 (UTC-0400):

> Box is between two tables but managed to remove side cover and with 
> mirror confirmed green light on motherboard. Unplugged power cord, green 
> light goes out, reconnected power, green light on and power switch 
> works, BIOS message Asus surge protection shut system down because of 
> unstable power supply..

> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I 
> be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?

Inferior quality capacitors in power supplies were *very* common 10 years ago.
New or rebuild PS likely all you need. Every PS I bought back around then (at
least 4, all 300W or more), different brands every time, and not el-cheapos,
needed cap replacement within 3-5 years.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#195366 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

Thomas George wrote:
...
> Box is between two tables but managed to remove side cover and with 
> mirror confirmed green light on motherboard. Unplugged power cord, green 
> light goes out, reconnected power, green light on and power switch 
> works, BIOS message Asus surge protection shut system down because of 
> unstable power supply..
>
> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I 
> be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?

  when is last time you changed cmos battery for it?

  otherwise how is the system connected to house power
supply?  have there been any storms lately?  around
here we've had some power failures lately and the UPS
has let me shut down ok.


  songbird

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#195374 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

I remember changing the cmos battery some years ago. Maybe time to do it 
again.

No storms preceding, during and after the described failure. Ups shuts 
down system after 30 seconds if there is a power failure.


On 05/06/2018 05:02 PM, songbird wrote:
> Thomas George wrote:
> ...
>> Box is between two tables but managed to remove side cover and with
>> mirror confirmed green light on motherboard. Unplugged power cord, green
>> light goes out, reconnected power, green light on and power switch
>> works, BIOS message Asus surge protection shut system down because of
>> unstable power supply..
>>
>> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should I
>> be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?
>    when is last time you changed cmos battery for it?
>
>    otherwise how is the system connected to house power
> supply?  have there been any storms lately?  around
> here we've had some power failures lately and the UPS
> has let me shut down ok.
>
>
>    songbird
>
>
>

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#195426 — Re: Dead computer after system shutdown. - Resolved for Now

On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 02:36:50PM -0400, Thomas George wrote:
> Box is between two tables but managed to remove side cover and with
> mirror confirmed green light on motherboard. Unplugged power cord,
> green light goes out, reconnected power, green light on and power
> switch works, BIOS message Asus surge protection shut system down
> because of unstable power supply..
>
> My records show I assembled this box from components in 2008. Should
> I be worried? Expected lifetimes of cpu, mb, power supply?
>
>
> On 05/06/2018 12:14 PM, Thomas George wrote:
> >Selected shutdown from the window manager and the operating system
> >turned off the computer as usual. Tried to restart the computer
> >from the switch on the desktop box but it was totally dead.
> >
> >Where to look for the failure? CPU, motherboard, power supply or
> >mechanical switch?
> >
> >I never thought before about how the operating system shuts down
> >the computer. I know there are two wires from the power supply
> >which the desktop switch connects to turn on the power supply. How
> >does the operating system turn it off?

Dirt, dust will greatly affect a computer's life expectancy.
I try to clean my old PIII twice a year. Open it up, take outside and
blow all the dust out. Then pop the cover off the PS and give it the
same treatment. Clean all the fan blades with Qtips and alcohol as
well as the CPU heat sink.
ESD  procedures are called for but all that really amounts to is
putting a hand on the chassis before touching anything inside so any
charge you have built up is disappated through the chassis rather than
through a chip's gate.
Best of luck,
Mike
--
"Computers have enabled people to make more mistakes faster than
almost any invention in history, with the possible exception of
tequila and hand guns." - Mitch Ratcliffe

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