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Debian glossary?

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  Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 13:50 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 14:30 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 14:30 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 15:30 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 16:50 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 18:10 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 21:40 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Felix Dietrich <felix.dietrich@sperrhaken.name> - 2018-05-06 11:10 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-05-01 13:40 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-01 14:00 +0200
                Re: Debian glossary? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-05-01 14:20 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 15:10 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 15:50 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 17:10 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 19:20 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 21:30 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 16:40 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 16:50 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 17:00 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 17:20 +0200
                Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 17:40 +0200
                  Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 19:20 +0200
                    Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 19:30 +0200
                      Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 20:00 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 18:10 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 18:30 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 15:30 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 16:30 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 19:00 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 22:20 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-05-01 02:30 +0200
              Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 16:30 +0200
                Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-03 19:30 +0200
                  Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 21:20 +0200
                Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-05-03 20:20 +0200
                  Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 21:10 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 17:10 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 17:10 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? Felix Dietrich <felix.dietrich@sperrhaken.name> - 2018-04-30 18:30 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2018-05-02 03:40 +0200

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#195198

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 11:16:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> > >     233     911    7823
> > > wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> > >     835    4551   34791
> > >
> > > In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> > > page.
> > 
> > That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
> > single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.
> 
> "info coreutils ls" is just the "ls" part.  Please actually try it.
> (I suggest "info coreutils ls | less" as an alternative to the "info"
> reader program.)

I stepped through   info coreutils ls   adding together the numbers of lines
reported by less and ended up at 908.

info coreutils   came up with 18696.

Cheers,
David.

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#195212

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:34:23 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 11:16:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> > > >     233     911    7823
> > > > wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> > > >     835    4551   34791
> > > >
> > > > In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> > > > page.
> > > 
> > > That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
> > > single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.
> > 
> > "info coreutils ls" is just the "ls" part.  Please actually try it.
> > (I suggest "info coreutils ls | less" as an alternative to the "info"
> > reader program.)
> 
> I stepped through   info coreutils ls   adding together the numbers of lines
> reported by less and ended up at 908.
> 
> info coreutils   came up with 18696.

Isn't 18696 the byte count?

-- 
Brian.

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#195214

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 06:19:11PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:34:23 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > info coreutils   came up with 18696.
> 
> Isn't 18696 the byte count?

No.

wooledg:~$ info coreutils | wc
  18696  111230  863180

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#195218

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 13:23:38 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 06:19:11PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:34:23 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > info coreutils   came up with 18696.
> > 
> > Isn't 18696 the byte count?
> 
> No.
> 
> wooledg:~$ info coreutils | wc
>   18696  111230  863180

Just testing. :)

-- 
Brian. 

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#195200

On Monday, April 30, 2018 10:44:56 AM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:37:22AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> > as those files appear to be made by just copying the man
> > page into the info format.
> 
> That's untrue.  Compare a GNU info page to the same tool's GNU man page
> and you will see a huge difference.
> 
> wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
>     233     911    7823
> wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
>     835    4551   34791

Well, I wouldn't say it's untrue--it is sometimes (and maybe often) true--I 
don't have an example at hand, but back in the days when I did look at an info 
page after viewing a man page, I often found the exact same content (maybe 
modulo some formatting differences or similar).

Of course, I don't know whether the man pages copied the info pages or vice 
versa (in those cases).

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#195202

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:07:51PM -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, I wouldn't say it's untrue--it is sometimes (and maybe often) true--I 
> don't have an example at hand, but back in the days when I did look at an info 
> page after viewing a man page, I often found the exact same content (maybe 
> modulo some formatting differences or similar).

You might be thinking of programs for which no man page exists *at all*,
in which case the "man page" is literally a copy of a texinfo-to-ascii
output from the info page.  There are a few of those out there, though
I can't think of one off the top of my head.

But the more typical GNU case has a stub/minimalist man page, with the
note that the full documentation is in the info page.

Examples:

wooledg:~$ man rm | grep info
              output version information and exit
       or available locally via: info '(coreutils) rm invocation'

wooledg:~$ man grep | grep -A5 'Full Doc'
   Full Documentation
       A   complete   manual   ⟨http://www.gnu.org/software/grep/manual/⟩   is
       available.   If  the  info  and grep programs are properly installed at
       your site, the command

              info grep

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#195182

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

Strong words.

[...]
 
> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
> 
> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }

At the end of ls(1) it says:

 Full documentation at: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls>
 or available locally via: info '(coreutils) ls invocation'

I think "Full" would imply more detail than in the manual. I'd use
'pinfo ls' for something more friendly than info.

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> /begin quote
> strictatime
>     Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it possible
> for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still allow userspace
> to override it. For more details about the default system mount options see
> /proc/mounts.
> /end quote
> 
> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without comprehension,
> I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate that there would be
> a reference to it elsewhere in https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }

'cat /proc/mounts' doesn't necessarily improve your comprehension but it
is probably quicker. For a reference, you want proc(5); that takes you to
fstab(5).

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several
> references to "block special device".
> { "block special device" ??? }

I thought that was well explained. What does the internet say about it?

> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

Not a novel observation - but you are not uninitiated or a newcomer. Then
there is always a search engine at hand or the ever-helpful debian-user.

-- 
Brian.

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#195186

On 04/30/2018 08:20 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> Strong words.

BUT true!

> 
> [...]
>   
>> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
>> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
>>
>> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }
> 
> At the end of ls(1) it says:
> 
>   Full documentation at: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls>
>   or available locally via: info '(coreutils) ls invocation'

You have identified a documentation bug!
The relevant line of the HTML of 
https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is

</a></h1>
GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a 
href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>

and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.

Drilling down to
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/What-information-is-listed.html#What-information-is-listed
does indeed identify "d".

> 
> I think "Full" would imply more detail than in the manual. I'd use
> 'pinfo ls' for something more friendly than info.

Hadn't heard of pinfo and it wasn't installed. Looks interesting.
Will read man page online later.

> 
>> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
>> /begin quote
>> strictatime
>>      Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it possible
>> for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still allow userspace
>> to override it. For more details about the default system mount options see
>> /proc/mounts.
>> /end quote
>>
>> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without comprehension,
>> I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate that there would be
>> a reference to it elsewhere in https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }
> 
> 'cat /proc/mounts' doesn't necessarily improve your comprehension but it
> is probably quicker. For a reference, you want proc(5);

You have identified ANOTHER bug.  "/proc/mounts" should read "proc(5)".


> that takes you to fstab(5).
> 
>> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several
>> references to "block special device".
>> { "block special device" ??? }
> 
> I thought that was well explained.

I admit the author would claim so. But it left me head scratching.

> What does the internet say about it?

Various pages say various things while raising more questions clouding 
the issue.

> 
>> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
>> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> 
> Not a novel observation - but you are not uninitiated or a newcomer. Then
> there is always a search engine at hand or the ever-helpful debian-user. >

<ROFL> Unwarranted assumption implied by "but you are not uninitiated or 
a newcomer".

As to computers generally - true.

As an E.E. student in the 60's took "Introduction to Computers" followed 
by a semester of FORTRAN. In the 70's I did work for DEC. *BUT* I was in 
"Power Supply Engineering". My name (or at least my initials) appear on 
some H720-E documentation.

BUT, until abandoning WinXP for Squeeze I was only a USER without any OS 
background. Since then I've been self-taught, there not even being a 
local LUG.

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#195211

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 09:27:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 08:20 AM, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> > > Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> > 
> > Strong words.
> 
> BUT true!

No they are not. Valid, perhaps.

> > 
> > [...]
> > > Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> > > "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
> > > 
> > > { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }
> > 
> > At the end of ls(1) it says:
> > 
> >   Full documentation at: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls>
> >   or available locally via: info '(coreutils) ls invocation'
> 
> You have identified a documentation bug!

No, I haven't. You may think *you* have, but you haven't.

> The relevant line of the HTML of
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> 
> </a></h1>
> GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
> 
> and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> 
> Drilling down to
> https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/What-information-is-listed.html#What-information-is-listed
> does indeed identify "d".
> 
> > 
> > I think "Full" would imply more detail than in the manual. I'd use
> > 'pinfo ls' for something more friendly than info.
> 
> Hadn't heard of pinfo and it wasn't installed. Looks interesting.
> Will read man page online later.
> 
> > 
> > > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> > > /begin quote
> > > strictatime
> > >      Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it possible
> > > for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still allow userspace
> > > to override it. For more details about the default system mount options see
> > > /proc/mounts.
> > > /end quote
> > > 
> > > { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without comprehension,
> > > I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate that there would be
> > > a reference to it elsewhere in https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }
> > 
> > 'cat /proc/mounts' doesn't necessarily improve your comprehension but it
> > is probably quicker. For a reference, you want proc(5);
> 
> You have identified ANOTHER bug.  "/proc/mounts" should read "proc(5)".

No, I haven't. And, no, it shouldn't.

> > that takes you to fstab(5).
> > 
> > > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several
> > > references to "block special device".
> > > { "block special device" ??? }
> > 
> > I thought that was well explained.
> 
> I admit the author would claim so. But it left me head scratching.
> 
> > What does the internet say about it?
> 
> Various pages say various things while raising more questions clouding the
> issue.
> 
> > 
> > > Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> > > They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> > 
> > Not a novel observation - but you are not uninitiated or a newcomer. Then
> > there is always a search engine at hand or the ever-helpful debian-user. >
> 
> <ROFL> Unwarranted assumption implied by "but you are not uninitiated or a
> newcomer".
> 
> As to computers generally - true.
> 
> As an E.E. student in the 60's took "Introduction to Computers" followed by
> a semester of FORTRAN. In the 70's I did work for DEC. *BUT* I was in "Power
> Supply Engineering". My name (or at least my initials) appear on some H720-E
> documentation.
> 
> BUT, until abandoning WinXP for Squeeze I was only a USER without any OS
> background. Since then I've been self-taught, there not even being a local
> LUG.

You had access to computers when you were young? How fortunate! All we
had was a second-hand abacus with a bead missing and a manual written in
the Chinese language. Try dividing £112/13s/7d by £2/7s/11d with that.

-- 
Brian

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#195226

On 04/30/2018 11:58 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 09:27:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> You have identified a documentation bug!
> 
> No, I haven't. You may think *you* have, but you haven't.
> 
>> The relevant line of the HTML of
>> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
>>
>> </a></h1>
>> GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
>>
>> and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
>>

*YES*
*YOU* have identified a bug.
Just not the one either of us thought we were discussing.

Carefully read the quoted HTML.
There be a missing "ls".

I suspect a corrupt mirror.
Have *NO* idea how to verify.
Will try at a similar time tomorrow.

Is there any way to establish *EXACTLY* which mirror I'm viewing?

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#195233

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 15:15:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 11:58 AM, Brian wrote:
> >On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 09:27:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>
> >>You have identified a documentation bug!
> >
> >No, I haven't. You may think *you* have, but you haven't.
> >
> >>The relevant line of the HTML of
> >>https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> >>
> >></a></h1>
> >>GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
> >>
> >>and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> >>
> 
> *YES*
> *YOU* have identified a bug.
> Just not the one either of us thought we were discussing.

I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.

> Carefully read the quoted HTML.
> There be a missing "ls".

I'm not in the habit of reading HTML but I went to your reference
and it looks like your quotation is rendered as:

    REPORTING BUGS

    GNU coreutils online help: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/>

This is exactly what's written at the end of the local man page too.
Clicking on this link takes me (after allowing an automatic redirect) to:
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/coreutils.html

where there's a bug reporting section a little over halfway down the page:

    Bug Reports

    If you think you have found a bug in Coreutils, then …

> I suspect a corrupt mirror.

Why? Where is the "ls" string missing from?

> Have *NO* idea how to verify.
> Will try at a similar time tomorrow.

You can compare the webpage above with the output of
$ man ls
yourself at any time of day.

> Is there any way to establish *EXACTLY* which mirror I'm viewing?

Cheers,
David.

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#195263 — Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:
> [*SNIP*]
> I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
> [*SNIP*]

On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> The relevant line of the HTML of https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> 
> </a></h1>
> GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
> 
> and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.

Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the relevant 
line of
   https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
reads:
> </a></h1>
> Full documentation at: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls</a>&gt;


My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.

If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to 
determine which mirror I'm seeing?

TIA

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#195265 — Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > [*SNIP*]
> > I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
> > [*SNIP*]
> 
> On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > The relevant line of the HTML of https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> > 
> > </a></h1>
> > GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
> > 
> > and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> 
> Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the relevant line
> of
>   https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
> reads:
> > </a></h1>
> > Full documentation at: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls</a>&gt;
> 
> 
> My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.
> 
> If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to determine
> which mirror I'm seeing?

I use Firefox. Prior to activating a link I would do

 netstat -tulpan | grep ESTABLISHED.*firefox

Immediately after activation, the command would be repeated. 'whois'
would then dtermine what has been connected to.

-- 
Brian.

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#195269 — Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

On 05/03/2018 12:28 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>> My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.
>>
>> If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to determine
>> which mirror I'm seeing?
> 
> I use Firefox. Prior to activating a link I would do
> 
>   netstat -tulpan | grep ESTABLISHED.*firefox
> 
> Immediately after activation, the command would be repeated. 'whois'
> would then dtermine what has been connected to.
> 

David has likely spotted my problem.
Getting to get familiar with netstat will be valuable.
Thank you.

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#195266 — Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:
> >[*SNIP*]
> >I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
> >[*SNIP*]
> 
> On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >The relevant line of the HTML of https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> >
> ></a></h1>
> >GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
> >
> >and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> 
> Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the
> relevant line of
>   https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
> reads:
> ></a></h1>
> >Full documentation at: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls</a>&gt;
> 
> 
> My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.

Revisiting your two posts, you are commenting on two different places
on the web page.

First post Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:15:41 -0500:

REPORTING BUGS
GNU coreutils online help: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/>

Second post Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 09:27:52 -0500:

SEE ALSO
Full documentation at: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls> 

Perhaps the fact that "coreutils" happens to end with "ls" confuses
the eye.

> If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to
> determine which mirror I'm seeing?

Cheers,
David.

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#195267 — Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

On 05/03/2018 01:17 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:
>>> [*SNIP*]
>>> I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
>>> [*SNIP*]
>>
>> On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> The relevant line of the HTML of https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
>>>
>>> </a></h1>
>>> GNU coreutils online help: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/</a>
>>>
>>> and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
>>
>> Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the
>> relevant line of
>>    https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
>> reads:
>>> </a></h1>
>>> Full documentation at: &lt;<a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls">http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls</a>&gt;
>>
>>
>> My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.
> 
> Revisiting your two posts, you are commenting on two different places
> on the web page.
> 
> First post Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:15:41 -0500:
> 
> REPORTING BUGS
> GNU coreutils online help: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/>
> 
> Second post Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 09:27:52 -0500:
> 
> SEE ALSO
> Full documentation at: <http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls>
> 
> Perhaps the fact that "coreutils" happens to end with "ls" confuses
> the eye.

Possibly. But my memory had me convinced that I had searched for "Full 
documentation at:" each time.
Thank you.


> 
>> If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to
>> determine which mirror I'm seeing?
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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#195194

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> I've been trying to debug my usage of debootstrap.
> Therefore been reading many man pages - often with incomplete comprehension.
> E.G. In reply to one of my questions a gentleman replied with the
> proper syntax for one command. He followed it with several
> quotations from a man page [subtle hint to read same ;]. I replied
> that I had read the man page, but even after reading his excerpts I
> still didn't comprehend.
> 
> This morning's partial set of items I do not grok include:
> <problems described in {...}>
> 
> Partial output of "mount -l" is
> "/dev/sdc1 on /media/richard/rco1 type ext4
> (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,data=ordered,uhelper=udisks2) [rco1]".
> 
> { (...) Although I can interpret many items, several I can't. I
> suspect (...) is trying to tell me something by which items
> are/aren't listed.}
> 
> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
> 
> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }
> 
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> /begin quote
> strictatime
>     Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it
> possible for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still
> allow userspace to override it. For more details about the default
> system mount options see /proc/mounts.
> /end quote
> 
> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without
> comprehension, I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to
> indicate that there would be a reference to it elsewhere in
> https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }
> 
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes
> several references to "block special device".
> { "block special device" ??? }
> 
> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> 
> Comments?

Sure. You turn to page 108 of Running Linux 5th ed and read it there.

Don't have it? Download it. Type running-linux-5th-2006.pdf into
google and it's the first hit. Then type

$ wget https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/IT%20Various/running_linux_5th_edition.pdf

and read it.

Why "running-linux-5th-2006.pdf"? Because that's the name it has in my
filesystem. (I gave away my July 1995 paper copy to an enthusiastic
teenager who now works in IT.) Now get stuck into Unix Power Tools
3rd edition (replaces my October 1995 edition), Linux in a Nutshell
(ditto April 1997), and several others out there, all downloadable,
usually in slightly dated editions.

I thought you had a voracious appetite for reading in your retirement.
I just don't understand how you can hang out hereabouts for over six
years and not know that d stands for directory, or claim to be
"uninitiated".

Cheers,
David.

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#195264

On 04/30/2018 10:02 AM, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> Comments?
> 
> Sure. You turn to page 108 of Running Linux 5th ed and read it there.
> 
> Don't have it? Download it. Type running-linux-5th-2006.pdf into
> google and it's the first hit. Then type
> 
> $ wget https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/IT%20Various/running_linux_5th_edition.pdf
> 
> and read it.

I've downloaded it and bookmarked https://the-eye.eu/public/ for future 
reference. As I've written I have discovered ~1500 pages of "dead 
trees". That includes a 2002 copy of _A Practical Guide to Red Hat 
Linux_ by Sobell [no idea when acquired]. I'll start on both - the dead 
tree version can be more Vietcong to read.


> 
> Why "running-linux-5th-2006.pdf"? Because that's the name it has in my
> filesystem. (I gave away my July 1995 paper copy to an enthusiastic
> teenager who now works in IT.) Now get stuck into Unix Power Tools
> 3rd edition (replaces my October 1995 edition), Linux in a Nutshell
> (ditto April 1997), and several others out there, all downloadable,
> usually in slightly dated editions.
> 
> I thought you had a voracious appetite for reading in your retirement.

<chuckle/sigh>
I have a tendency to read for the "question-du-jour", missing other 
information.
The result is spotty background.

> I just don't understand how you can hang out hereabouts for over six
> years and not know that d stands for directory, or claim to be
> "uninitiated".
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

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#195203

Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:

> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
>
> This morning's partial set of items I do not grok include:
> <problems described in {...}>
>
> Partial output of "mount -l" is
> "/dev/sdc1 on /media/richard/rco1 type ext4
> (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,data=ordered,uhelper=udisks2) [rco1]".
>
> { (...) Although I can interpret many items, several I can't. I
> suspect (...) is trying to tell me something by which items are/aren't
> listed.}

Between the parentheses are listed the mount options that are set:

    - rw       :: mounted read-write
    - nosuid   :: do not allow setting of SUID bit
                  (executables with set SUID are run as the
                  owner of the file, not the executing user)
    - nodev    :: do not allow device files (i.e. files that
                  act as an interface to a driver)
    - relatime :: update file access time only when modification
                  time is newer than access time (reduces number
                  of writes to a drive)

The rest I do not know and therefore you have to look them up yourself.

„findmnt” provides a pretty display of mounted devices and displays a
header telling you what the data in the columns refers to.

> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
>
> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }

Programs that are part of the GNU software distribution usually have, in
addition to the terser man pages, more comprehensive info documents.
These can be accessed with the „info” program (if it is not already
installed: the Debian package goes by the same name).  For your specific
question the information can be found in the info document for the
„coreutils” package; the following command should display the
appropriate section: „info --index-search='-l <6>' coreutils”. [1]

In short: „d” denotes directories; „3” is the count of hard links.

That the man page for „ls” does not describe the output format I find
odd; might be worth a bug report (look at the „reportbug” program)?

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> /begin quote
> strictatime
>     Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it
> possible for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still
> allow userspace to override it. For more details about the default
> system mount options see /proc/mounts.
> /end quote
>
> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without
> comprehension, I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate
> that there would be a reference to it elsewhere in
> https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }

You can read „/proc/mounts” using an editor or within the shell using a
pager, e.g. „less /proc/mounts”, or simply get it output to your
terminal using „cat /proc/mounts”.  It will show you information of the
mounts currently known by the kernel.  The output, though, is not
especially user friendly, but seems to follow the same format as
„/etc/fstab”.

What the man page's author meant by „for more details about the default
system mount options see /proc/mounts” I am not certain.  Maybe he only
wanted to say that „/proc/mounts” displays the mount options currently
applied and if you do not specify some yourself you can deduce from the
displayed options the kernel's default options?

It is a rather confusing sentence: you could file a bug report (look at
the „reportbug” program) requesting clarification.

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes
> several references to "block special device".
> { "block special device" ??? }

Devices are put in two rough categories: block devices and character
devices.  Block devices are those that are partitioned into individual
accessable blocks; discs are usually considered block devices.
Character devices are all the rest: mice, keyboards, printers,
terminals.  They provide a stream of information.

> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

As has been mention by rhkramer for the „uninitiated” there have been
written introductory texts, though suggestions I have also not right
now.

Using a search engine usually yields good results for the more common
terms and also on Wikipedia can be found helpful computer related
articles, e.g. for block devices:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_device>.

[1] Also available on the web:
    https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/What-information-is-listed.html#index-verbose-ls-format

--
Felix Dietrich

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#195249

Hello,

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 06:46:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> 
> Comments?

https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html :
    The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that it's
    all learned.

If learning about this stuff wasn't difficult, quite a few of us
would be out of a job. Something that's even harder than attaining
the knowledge is writing good documentation about the knowledge.
Something that's nearly impossible is writing good documentation
that meets the needs of readers with every level of expertise,
including "none".

The learning also never ends. Even if you get to the point of having
all your computers doing exactly what you want with software that
hasn't changed in a decade, someone comes along and invents a new
init system, or finds out that all CPUs made in the last 20 years
are insecure, or something.

So, get used to it, I guess? ;)

Cheers,
Andy

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