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Debian glossary?

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  Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 13:50 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 14:30 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 14:30 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 15:30 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 16:50 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 18:10 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 21:40 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Felix Dietrich <felix.dietrich@sperrhaken.name> - 2018-05-06 11:10 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-05-01 13:40 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-01 14:00 +0200
                Re: Debian glossary? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2018-05-01 14:20 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 15:10 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 15:50 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 17:10 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 19:20 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 21:30 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 16:40 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 16:50 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-04-30 17:00 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 17:20 +0200
                Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 17:40 +0200
                  Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 19:20 +0200
                    Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 19:30 +0200
                      Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 20:00 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-04-30 18:10 +0200
              Re: Debian glossary? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-04-30 18:30 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 15:30 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 16:30 +0200
        Re: Debian glossary? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 19:00 +0200
          Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-04-30 22:20 +0200
            Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-05-01 02:30 +0200
              Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 16:30 +0200
                Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-03 19:30 +0200
                  Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 21:20 +0200
                Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-05-03 20:20 +0200
                  Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 21:10 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-04-30 17:10 +0200
      Re: Debian glossary? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-03 17:10 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? Felix Dietrich <felix.dietrich@sperrhaken.name> - 2018-04-30 18:30 +0200
    Re: Debian glossary? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2018-05-02 03:40 +0200

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#195174 — Debian glossary?

Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

I've been trying to debug my usage of debootstrap.
Therefore been reading many man pages - often with incomplete comprehension.
E.G. In reply to one of my questions a gentleman replied with the proper 
syntax for one command. He followed it with several quotations from a 
man page [subtle hint to read same ;]. I replied that I had read the man 
page, but even after reading his excerpts I still didn't comprehend.

This morning's partial set of items I do not grok include:
<problems described in {...}>

Partial output of "mount -l" is
"/dev/sdc1 on /media/richard/rco1 type ext4 
(rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,data=ordered,uhelper=udisks2) [rco1]".

{ (...) Although I can interpret many items, several I can't. I suspect 
(...) is trying to tell me something by which items are/aren't listed.}

Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
"drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".

{ In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }

https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
/begin quote
strictatime
     Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it 
possible for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still 
allow userspace to override it. For more details about the default 
system mount options see /proc/mounts.
/end quote

{ Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without 
comprehension, I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate 
that there would be a reference to it elsewhere in 
https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }

https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several 
references to "block special device".
{ "block special device" ??? }

Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

Comments?

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#195176

On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

...

> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> 
> Comments?

True.  Have you read one or more general introductions to Linux (I have none 
to suggest at the momen).

Man pages are (or were, at least) intended to be more reminders for people 
that have at least a basic understanding of the command (or subject) rather 
than a tool to learn about it from scratch.

(When I switched from Windows to LInux, I found it very frustrating until I 
read several introductions to Linux (of various sorts, including at least 
skimming some thick books full of commands), and, I joined a local LUG.)

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#195177

Oh, and PS: it is not very clear to me in what you wrote what you are having 
trouble understanding -- if you are seeking answers, maybe you should ask more 
clearly.

From my peanut gallery observation of this thread, I think one of your 
problems is that the device you are tying to use (to install Linux, iirc?) is 
mounted with the nodev option, which, somebody explained in a followup post, 
is not what you want to use.

Are you familiar with the mstab, fstab, mount, and umount commands?  I think 
it would be helpful if you were...

On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

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#195183

On 04/30/2018 07:27 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> Oh, and PS: it is not very clear to me in what you wrote what you are having
> trouble understanding -- if you are seeking answers, maybe you should ask more
> clearly.
> 
>  From my peanut gallery observation of this thread, I think one of your
> problems is that the device you are tying to use (to install Linux, iirc?) is
> mounted with the nodev option, which, somebody explained in a followup post,
> is not what you want to use.
> 
> Are you familiar with the mstab, fstab, mount, and umount commands?  I think
> it would be helpful if you were...

*ROFL* Them be motivation for my post ;{
When I wrote "... a gentleman replied with the proper syntax for one 
command", I was referring to that post. It solved _one_ of my problems.

Based on 50+ years of hitting "corner cases" while trouble shooting in 
various disciplines, I've cleared hard disk space on another machine to 
avoid attempting to use a flash drive as a debootstrap target.

Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times %@%$^$!*() ;/



> 
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> 

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#195189

On Monday 30 April 2018 09:24:12 Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:27 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > Oh, and PS: it is not very clear to me in what you wrote what you
> > are having trouble understanding -- if you are seeking answers,
> > maybe you should ask more clearly.
> >
> >  From my peanut gallery observation of this thread, I think one of
> > your problems is that the device you are tying to use (to install
> > Linux, iirc?) is mounted with the nodev option, which, somebody
> > explained in a followup post, is not what you want to use.
> >
> > Are you familiar with the mstab, fstab, mount, and umount commands? 
> > I think it would be helpful if you were...
>
> *ROFL* Them be motivation for my post ;{
> When I wrote "... a gentleman replied with the proper syntax for one
> command", I was referring to that post. It solved _one_ of my
> problems.
>
> Based on 50+ years of hitting "corner cases" while trouble shooting in
> various disciplines, I've cleared hard disk space on another machine
> to avoid attempting to use a flash drive as a debootstrap target.
>
> Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times %@%$^$!*()
> ;/
>
Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
to a mounted device.

> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

And it needs to be.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#195201

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:44:58 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 30 April 2018 09:24:12 Richard Owlett wrote:

> > Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times %@%$^$!*()
> > ;/
> >
> Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
> armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
> instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
> to a mounted device.

Yes, I seem to remember pointing out that the cause might be Package: usbmount,
and being told that it wasn't there and I had an attitude problem.
In the end I think you blamed the "few trillion gallons of water [flowing] down
the West Fork River" for a recollection problem.

> > > On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > >>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> And it needs to be.

I can't understand why Debian would involve itself in writing
tutorials for commands like mount, ls, and so on, or glossaries
of terms like strictatime and device file.

All this is standard linux/unix information, well catered for by
libraries of books from several well-known publishers, O'Reilly
being one of the best known. I spent 1997/8 immersing myself in such
texts, at a time when these books had to be bought. (Public libraries
only had Idiots' guides to W95, etc.) Now there are a wealth of
free PDFs at every level of expertise on the web, there for the
downloading.

Cheers,
David.

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#195224

On Monday 30 April 2018 12:03:31 David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:44:58 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 30 April 2018 09:24:12 Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times
> > > %@%$^$!*() ;/
> >
> > Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write
> > an armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card
> > the instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying
> > to write to a mounted device.
>
> Yes, I seem to remember pointing out that the cause might be Package:
> usbmount, and being told that it wasn't there and I had an attitude
> problem.

My apologies David. It turned out to be hiding in plain sight and that is 
where I killed it.

> In the end I think you blamed the "few trillion gallons of 
> water [flowing] down the West Fork River" for a recollection problem.
>
That also is a definite possibility. My shorter term memory is suffering 
from oldtimers. Goes with both the 83 years, and I think from being a 
pulmonary embolism surviver 3 years back up the log.

> > > > On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > >>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> >
> > And it needs to be.
>
> I can't understand why Debian would involve itself in writing
> tutorials for commands like mount, ls, and so on, or glossaries
> of terms like strictatime and device file.
>
> All this is standard linux/unix information, well catered for by
> libraries of books from several well-known publishers, O'Reilly
> being one of the best known. I spent 1997/8 immersing myself in such
> texts, at a time when these books had to be bought. (Public libraries
> only had Idiots' guides to W95, etc.) Now there are a wealth of
> free PDFs at every level of expertise on the web, there for the
> downloading.

> Cheers,
> David.

Thanks David.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#195321

David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> writes:

> I can't understand why Debian would involve itself in writing
> tutorials for commands like mount, ls, and so on, or glossaries
> of terms like strictatime and device file.
>
> All this is standard linux/unix information, well catered for by
> libraries of books from several well-known publishers, O'Reilly
> being one of the best known. I spent 1997/8 immersing myself in such
> texts, at a time when these books had to be bought. (Public libraries
> only had Idiots' guides to W95, etc.) Now there are a wealth of
> free PDFs at every level of expertise on the web, there for the
> downloading.

The Debian project actually hosts some documentation efforts at
<https://www.debian.org/doc/>.  Among these are the book-like „The
Administrator's Handbook” [1] and the „Debian Reference” [2].  They
contain information on Debian-specific as well as general *nix usage.

[1] <https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/>
[2] <https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/>

--
Felix Dietrich

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#195238

Gene Heskett wrote:
...
> Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
> armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
> instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
> to a mounted device.

  noauto is a frequently used option here along with nofail
(in fstab).  if armhf or arm64 have broken mount commands 
is not something i can answer...


  songbird

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#195239

On Tue 01 May 2018 at 07:28:43 -0400, songbird wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> ...
> > Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
> > armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
> > instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
> > to a mounted device.
> 
>   noauto is a frequently used option here along with nofail
> (in fstab).  if armhf or arm64 have broken mount commands 
> is not something i can answer...

Is there an advantage in using noauto *and* nofail?

-- 
Brian.

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#195241

Brian wrote:
...
> Is there an advantage in using noauto *and* nofail?

  i leave nofail there as a reminder that i don't 
consider that partition important enough to be a 
fatal error even if i temporarily remove or change 
the noauto.

  having been bitten once i tend to be more 
cautious on subsequent outings...


  songbird

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#195181

On 04/30/2018 07:23 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> ...
> 
>> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
>> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
>>
>> Comments?
> 
> True.  Have you read one or more general introductions to Linux (I have none
> to suggest at the momen).

Yeah, but not recently.
You just reminded me that I have ~1500 pages of dusty dead trees available.

> 
> Man pages are (or were, at least) intended to be more reminders for people
> that have at least a basic understanding of the command (or subject) rather
> than a tool to learn about it from scratch.

PREACH it brother. I've made similar comments in the past.
The problem on this list is that newbies are often told
         "*READ THE MANUAL!*"
as if it were a panacea.


> 
> (When I switched from Windows to LInux, I found it very frustrating until I
> read several introductions to Linux (of various sorts, including at least
> skimming some thick books full of commands), and, I joined a local LUG.)
> 

I've followed a similar path abandoning WinXP for Squeeze.
The local LUG folded before I retired a decade ago. Never had a chance 
to attend any meetings as they were on weekday evenings and I worked 
graveyard shift. The nearest LUG's I know of are ~200 miles away (I live 
in RURAL S.W. Missouri where individual species of livestock outnumber 
people ;)

A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects 
along side of "Summer of Code".

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#195185

On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:


> PREACH it brother. I've made similar comments in the past.
> The problem on this list is that newbies are often told
>          "*READ THE MANUAL!*"
> as if it were a panacea.

True, I guess I always (well, usually) tried to interpret that as read some 
documentation, which was often facilitated by a google search looking for, 
among other things, howtos, wikis, forums, mail lists and such, rather than, 
specifically man pages.

> The local LUG folded before I retired a decade ago. Never had a chance
> to attend any meetings as they were on weekday evenings and I worked
> graveyard shift. The nearest LUG's I know of are ~200 miles away (I live
> in RURAL S.W. Missouri where individual species of livestock outnumber
> people ;)

Too bad about the LUG, re the livestock: LOL!
 
> A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
> along side of "Summer of Code".

Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux 
Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.

BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some 
other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??

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#195196

On 04/30/2018 08:38 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
>[snip]
>> A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
>> along side of "Summer of Code".
> 
> Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux
> Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.
> 
> BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some
> other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??

I avoid Google!

Having a strong preference for brick-n-mortar I've never had any contact 
with Amazon. Do they have any history of involvement in tech issues?

On a mailing list of an Oregon LUG, I once suggested that high school 
English teachers include tech writing as a possible assignment. Back in 
my day shop classes (woodworking, metal shop, auto mechanics) were used 
as motivation to stay in school - education being the desired side 
effect. Students today are fascinated with computers - a similar 
approach might be worthwhile. Also students with writing talent might be 
attracted to tech writing.

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#195213

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:01:13 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 08:38 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
> > > along side of "Summer of Code".
> > 
> > Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux
> > Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.
> > 
> > BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some
> > other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??
> 
> I avoid Google!
> 
> Having a strong preference for brick-n-mortar I've never had any contact
> with Amazon. Do they have any history of involvement in tech issues?

You could say that:

https://aws.amazon.com/

-- 
Brian.

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#195223

On 04/30/2018 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:01:13 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
>> On 04/30/2018 08:38 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>> A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
>>>> along side of "Summer of Code".
>>>
>>> Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux
>>> Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.
>>>
>>> BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some
>>> other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??
>>
>> I avoid Google!
>>
>> Having a strong preference for brick-n-mortar I've never had any contact
>> with Amazon. Do they have any history of involvement in tech issues?
> 
> You could say that:
> 
> https://aws.amazon.com/
> 

mea culpa  mea culpa
Actually I didn't have in mind sales of technology, but more along the 
lines of Google's SOC claiming to foster the next generation of 
technologists.

A quick glance suggests that it is worth of further investigation.
I did immediately find one thing in their favor.
Having some visual, problems I surf with site defined colors AND 
backgrounds disabled. The site is ugly with that constraint active.

*HOWEVER* setting things to accept the designer's choices results in an 
attractive legible display.
A *RARE* and valuable occurrence.

Thanks for the link.
When corporations do "something right", they should be acknowledged.
I'll browse further.

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#195188

On Monday 30 April 2018 09:06:09 Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:23 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of
> >> expertise. They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> >>
> >> Comments?
> >
> > True.  Have you read one or more general introductions to Linux (I
> > have none to suggest at the momen).
>
> Yeah, but not recently.
> You just reminded me that I have ~1500 pages of dusty dead trees
> available.
>
> > Man pages are (or were, at least) intended to be more reminders for
> > people that have at least a basic understanding of the command (or
> > subject) rather than a tool to learn about it from scratch.
>
> PREACH it brother. I've made similar comments in the past.
> The problem on this list is that newbies are often told
>          "*READ THE MANUAL!*"
> as if it were a panacea.
>
> > (When I switched from Windows to LInux, I found it very frustrating
> > until I read several introductions to Linux (of various sorts,
> > including at least skimming some thick books full of commands), and,
> > I joined a local LUG.)
>
> I've followed a similar path abandoning WinXP for Squeeze.
> The local LUG folded before I retired a decade ago. Never had a chance
> to attend any meetings as they were on weekday evenings and I worked
> graveyard shift. The nearest LUG's I know of are ~200 miles away (I
> live in RURAL S.W. Missouri where individual species of livestock
> outnumber people ;)
>
> A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
> along side of "Summer of Code".

Hear! Hear!! As a 20 year veteran of linux for the main stuff here at the 
coyote.den, I won't say exclusively linux because there were other 
machines, still are, and they run a simplified unix too, Nitros-9, but 
none of them ran windows longer than to note that it too was broken, 
usually detected within a day or so of acquireing the machine.

What I'm driving at is the message from on high, to those writing man 
pages for everything but bash, and even that can be less than ideal, 
seem to have been given orders that a man page is at maximum, 2 screen 
sized pages.  And that often doesn't give room to adequately cover what 
a given utility can do. Every option should have an example and its 
results. The recommendation to get the full story via info/pinfo is a 
running joke as those files appear to be made by just copying the man 
page into the info format. If you want to do a man-page, do it right and 
cover it all. Or collaborate with someone that can write it well.

My $0.02 on the subject. But adjust its worth by the inflation since 
1934.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#195190

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:37:22AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The recommendation to get the full story via info/pinfo is a 
> running joke

This is specific to the GNU project.  They're pushing their "info" reader
and their "texinfo" documentation format for their own political reasons.
(To be honest, the *roff format used by man pages *does* suck.  But still.)

> as those files appear to be made by just copying the man 
> page into the info format.

That's untrue.  Compare a GNU info page to the same tool's GNU man page
and you will see a huge difference.

wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
    233     911    7823
wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
    835    4551   34791

In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man page.

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#195191

On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:37:22AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The recommendation to get the full story via info/pinfo is a
> > running joke
>
> This is specific to the GNU project.  They're pushing their "info"
> reader and their "texinfo" documentation format for their own
> political reasons. (To be honest, the *roff format used by man pages
> *does* suck.  But still.)
>
> > as those files appear to be made by just copying the man
> > page into the info format.
>
> That's untrue.  Compare a GNU info page to the same tool's GNU man
> page and you will see a huge difference.
>
> wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
>     233     911    7823
> wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
>     835    4551   34791
>
> In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> page.

That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#195197

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> >     233     911    7823
> > wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> >     835    4551   34791
> >
> > In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> > page.
> 
> That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
> single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.

"info coreutils ls" is just the "ls" part.  Please actually try it.
(I suggest "info coreutils ls | less" as an alternative to the "info"
reader program.)

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