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Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports)

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  Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-01-12 14:50 +0100
    Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2018-01-12 15:00 +0100
      Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-01-12 15:20 +0100
      Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Ian Campbell <ijc@debian.org> - 2018-01-12 15:50 +0100
        Re: Frustration over Debian naming Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2018-01-12 16:10 +0100
        Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-12 22:10 +0100
          Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-01-13 04:20 +0100
            Re: Frustration over Debian naming John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-01-13 04:40 +0100
              Re: Frustration over Debian naming David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-13 18:10 +0100
          Re: Frustration over Debian naming Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2018-01-13 05:00 +0100
            Re: Frustration over Debian naming David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-13 17:40 +0100
          Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă <I.M.Ciobica@upcmail.nl> - 2018-01-13 05:40 +0100
            Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-01-13 12:00 +0100
              Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) bw <bwtnguy@yahoo.com> - 2018-01-13 15:10 +0100
                Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-01-13 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) bw <bwtnguy@yahoo.com> - 2018-01-13 16:30 +0100
                    Re: Frustration over Debian naming Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@surfnaked.ca> - 2018-01-14 01:00 +0100
                Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă <I.M.Ciobica@upcmail.nl> - 2018-01-13 16:10 +0100
            Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-13 17:40 +0100
              Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-01-13 18:10 +0100
                Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-13 20:20 +0100
          Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-01-13 16:20 +0100
            Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2018-01-13 16:40 +0100
              Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports) Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2018-01-13 18:00 +0100
                Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for  wheezy-backports) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-01-13 18:10 +0100
    Re: Frustration over Debian naming Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2018-02-05 23:50 +0100
      Re: Frustration over Debian naming Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2018-02-06 07:30 +0100

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#191047 — Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports)

On Sat 13 Jan 2018 at 17:05:54 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> On 2018-01-13, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sat 13 Jan 2018 at 05:14:37 (+0100), Ionel Mugurel Ciobîcă wrote:
> >> On 12-01-2018, at 15h 03'25", David Wright wrote about "Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports)"
> >> > [...] People use names, computers like numbers.
> >> > 
> >> 
> >> I do not take sides here, but I can't accept this statement. Numbers
> >> are universal, Debian release names are English. I do not use any of
> >> then (numbers or names). I simply have a look in /etc/apt/sources when
> >> I need to know what version of Debian I use at the moment, and I am
> >> using Debian before potato... (yes, I look into my /etc/apt/sources
> >> file to pull that name).
> >> 
> >> Did any of Debian release names were translated? I am bad with names.
> >> Specially English ones. I find all of Debian release names stupid till
> >> now. Culminating with perpetual Sid (no, I did not consulted
> >> /etc/apt/sources file now).
> >> 
> >> I am extremely good with numbers. You could say that I can speak
> >> math. Although I studied chemistry. So, coming back to the statement,
> >> I find it extremely stupid. You could have getting away saying 
> >> "People use WORDS, computers USE numbers." Numbers are words so nobody
> >> is offended. 
> >> 
> >> Take care what you write.
> >
> > I'm not sure what's going on here. Am I meant to apologise for the
> > fact that the Debian project was developed in an English-speaking
> > environment?
> 
> Perhaps he has meant to say you have confused names with words; the
> former being specific to a language and culture, and the latter being
> universal.
> 
> For instance, here a "vieux con" denotes something quite telling,
> whereas elsewhere, when dealing with doddering idiots who remain
> consistently in a state of unselfconscious befuddlement, you would
> surely seek some other term.

This is where themes can help. If, by chance, there's a unfortunate
coincidence in meaning, it provides an explanation for the collision.
Are there statistics on how many hosts, for example, are named uranus
compared with the other planets?

A theme may not be a persuasive enough to overcome the counter-
meanings. Perhaps the classic example of this is Rolls Royce models:
Silver Phantom/Ghost/Wraith/Dawn/Cloud/Seraph/Spirit and the proposed
Mist, fortunately changed to Shadow.

Of course, arguing about the "stupidity" of code names is rather
futile in view of the fact that they fill the rest of the world.

Cheers,
David.

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#191036 — Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports)

On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 03:03:25PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
>Which reason? The formal name of a release is the Release number.

And yet our sources.list files all contain

    deb <mirror> stretch main

and not

    deb <mirror> 9 main

And I had to look up "9" in that wiki page to even make this point.
The page has also only existed since 2013; prior to that, the
information was in the WP page for Debian proper (but not easily
accessible on Debian's own home page); and for a while in the middle it
was not nicely collated in any of those places. As with anything on
Wikipedia, there's no guarantee it will be there Tomorrow.

>Some people always seem to remain confused. Perhaps they have
>the same confusion with timezones, for similar reasons.

Both are confusing. One, Debian has the possibility to improve.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#191039 — Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports)

On Sat, 13 Jan 2018, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > Some people always seem to remain confused. Perhaps they have
> > the same confusion with timezones, for similar reasons.
> 
> Both are confusing. One, Debian has the possibility to improve.

Yes, we could "improve".  But for many of us that doesn't mean dropping
the release codenames: they're cute, they endear a Debian release to us,
they're tradition, and we want a *name* to call the baby we raise for
two years before we deem it stable.

However, there is no reason to not improve things so we can use a
numeric sequence-based release id everywhere we could use the code
name...

For example: stable, stretch, and debian9 could all be aliases to the
same release.  While "stable" changes target at new releases, the
codename ("stretch") and the "sequential alias" ("debian9") wouldn't.
And no, it cannot start with a number, that is way too likely to cause
issues in unexpected places and so it is a non-starter.

Mind you, adding any sort of extra alias to a release would require a
non-trivial amount of work, and the people who would do it are the
ftpmasters and release managers... so their input and willingness to
implement are absolutely key factors on any proposal of change in this
area.

-- 
  Henrique Holschuh

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#191042

Has anyone in this thread mentioned DNS yet?

--
Glenn English

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#191043 — Re: Frustration over Debian naming (was: Re: Meltdown fix for wheezy-backports)

On Sat 13 Jan 2018 at 16:56:05 (+0000), Glenn English wrote:
> Has anyone in this thread mentioned DNS yet?

Quoting RFC 1178:

  “There is always room for an exception.

    “I don't think any explanation is needed here.  However, let me
    add that if you later decide to change a name (to something
    sensible like you should have chosen in the first place), you
    are going to be amazed at the amount of pain awaiting you. No
    matter how easy the manuals suggest it is to change a name, you
    will find that lots of obscure software has rapidly accumulated
    which refers to that computer using that now-ugly name.  It all
    has to be found and changed.  People mailing to you from other
    sites have to be told.  And you will have to remember that
    names on old backup media labels correspond to different names.

    “I could go on but it would be easier just to forget this
    guideline exists.”

Cheers,
David.

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#191993 — Re: Frustration over Debian naming

rhkramer:

> Intentionally cross posted. Aside: For those on the debian-user lists, 
> the thread came from the debian-backports list, but my frustration 
> should probably be expressed more to the debian-user list (or 
> debian-developer list, assuming there is such a list (to which I am 
> not subscribed). [...]
>
> But the various names and use of those names gets very frustrating for 
> me, and I suspect I am not the only one. The numbered versions, the 
> Toy Story names, and then the testing, stable, old stable, old old 
> stable is just frustrating.
>
Tangentially to that, it seems that someone needs to pick up the dropped 
baton and update the pictures.

* 
http://wiki.lib.sun.ac.za/images/thumb/a/aa/Timelinededebian.png/800px-Timelinededebian.png

* 
http://blog.admin-linux.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/infographic_debian_history-en-v081.png

* http://doc.callmematthi.eu/pictures/Understanding_Debian.png

* https://i.stack.imgur.com/nLXu9.jpg

* 
https://bsdmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/infographic_debian-v2.1.en_.png

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#192013 — Re: Frustration over Debian naming

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:17 AM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

> Tangentially to that, it seems that someone needs to pick up the dropped
> baton and update the pictures.

Those are all copies of a diagram by Claudio Filho, if anyone updates
it, please send him a pull request to update the official repository:

http://cfnarede.com.br/en/infographic-of-debian
https://github.com/filhocf/infographics

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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