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Groups > linux.debian.user > #185161 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-08-14 11:50 +0200 |
| Last post | 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 144 — 27 participants |
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no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 11:50 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-14 13:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 13:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-14 13:40 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 13:50 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 18:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 14:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 15:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-14 15:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 15:50 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-14 16:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-14 16:40 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 18:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 17:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 18:20 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 12:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 22:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-19 23:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 12:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 14:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 15:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 15:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-15 16:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:30 +0200
Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 10:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 11:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-16 12:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200
Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-16 16:40 +0200
Re: Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 17:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 22:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-15 22:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 04:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 09:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 17:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 04:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-15 16:40 +0200
No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-19 14:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 17:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-19 11:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 15:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 17:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 20:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-08-20 02:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 16:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> - 2017-08-20 12:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-21 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 16:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-20 14:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-20 14:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-20 17:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-21 05:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 06:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-19 23:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-08-20 02:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-20 14:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-21 07:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-21 15:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 15:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 17:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 18:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 19:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 19:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 20:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 21:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-22 17:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Sven Hartge <sven@svenhartge.de> - 2017-08-22 17:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2017-08-21 17:30 +0200
No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 10:40 +0200
No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 10:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-21 17:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 20:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 03:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 03:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-16 06:40 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 21:30 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-14 22:40 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-14 23:50 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:40 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 11:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-28 12:50 +0200
obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 08:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 00:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 11:50 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-19 15:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 16:00 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 20:00 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-21 15:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 16:30 +0200
obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 09:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 11:50 +0200 |
| Subject | no /etc/inittab |
| Message-ID | <uekau-2tS-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
hi everybody, I discovered recently, after re-installing my system with the Debian 9.1 kde live dvd, that the /etc/inittab is no more present, although all the documentation I found still mentions it, For example, from the Debian wiki: The system initialization process is handled by the init daemon. The ?/etc/inittab configuration tells init what to do. Especially it contains the lines : Nevertheless, the boot seems to work corectly without it, and without /etc/init.d/rc. Does that means that the Debian wiki is out of date, or did I miss something? best regards, -- Pierre Frenkiel
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| From | Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 13:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uelge-389-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185161 |
On 14.08.17 11:43, Pierre Frenkiel wrote: > hi everybody, > I discovered recently, after re-installing my system with the Debian 9.1 kde > live dvd, that the /etc/inittab is no more present, although > all the documentation I found still mentions it, For example, from the Debian wiki: > > The system initialization process is handled by the init daemon. > The ?/etc/inittab configuration tells init what to do. Especially it contains the lines : > > Nevertheless, the boot seems to work corectly without it, and without /etc/init.d/rc. > Does that means that the Debian wiki is out of date, or did I miss something? Yup, but it hasn't missed you. We no longer run Linux, but rather, Systemdix. In Debian, systemd is inexorably replacing swathes of traditional *nix functionality which we have over several decades learnt to use and rely on. With Systemdix, we not only acquire a M$-style impenetrable monolithic kitchen sink, but lose the interfaces with which we are familiar. My Debian 7.8 machine still has /etc/inittab, but the new 9.0 machine doesn't. AIUI, though, it is not necessary to go back to the old versions, as it is possible to replace systemd in stretch with a sysv package. In fact, the first hit for "debian stretch sysvinit" is "Debian Stretch - Without Systemd" Jackpot! http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch Now, if that brings back ifconfig as well, I won't have to rummage about finding which package that might be in. It's fine to add new stuff to *nix, but the user interface for existing stuff has to remain, or it's not worth a biscuit. (c.f. postfix, which provides a sendmail-style interface for us old-timers.) Erik
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 13:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uelpT-3qt-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185165 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Erik Christiansen wrote: > Yup, but it hasn't missed you. We no longer run Linux, but rather, Systemdix. > In Debian, systemd is inexorably replacing swathes of traditional *nix > functionality which we have over several decades learnt to use and rely > on. With Systemdix, we not only acquire a M$-style impenetrable > monolithic kitchen sink, but lose the interfaces with which we are > familiar. > > My Debian 7.8 machine still has /etc/inittab, but the new 9.0 machine > doesn't. AIUI, though, it is not necessary to go back to the old > versions, as it is possible to replace systemd in stretch with a sysv package. > In fact, the first hit for "debian stretch sysvinit" is "Debian Stretch > - Without Systemd" Jackpot! > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch > > Now, if that brings back ifconfig as well, I won't have to rummage about > finding which package that might be in. > > It's fine to add new stuff to *nix, but the user interface for existing > stuff has to remain, or it's not worth a biscuit. (c.f. postfix, which > provides a sendmail-style interface for us old-timers.) thanks Erik for your explanations, but actually I see no good reason to revert to sysinit. I just wanted to know why the Debian wiki is not updated, 2 months after the Stretch release. best regards, -- Pierre Frenkiel
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| From | Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 13:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uelSV-3Ag-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185166 |
Le septidi 27 thermidor, an CCXXV, Pierre Frenkiel a écrit : > thanks Erik for your explanations, but actually I see no good reason to revert to sysinit. If you trust the Debian developers who made the choice to switch to systemd over random advice on the mailing-list, you indeed have no reason to revert. > I just wanted to know why the Debian wiki is not updated, 2 months after the Stretch release. Jessie also used systemd, so that is more two years than two months. The answer to that question is simple: it is a wiki, it has not been updated because you did not update it. Me neither. Please proceed. Regards, -- Nicolas George
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 13:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uem2C-3DE-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185168 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Nicolas George wrote:
> Jessie also used systemd, so that is more two years than two months.
>
all the Jessie systems I know actually have /etc/iniitab and /etc/init.d/rc...
> The answer to that question is simple: it is a wiki, it has not been
> updated because you did not update it. Me neither. Please proceed.
I naively thought that Debian developpers took care of that...
Luckily, there is a full set of documentation at https://www.debian.org/doc/
best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 18:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueq6e-6jm-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185168 |
On Mon 14 Aug 2017 at 13:22:45 +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le septidi 27 thermidor, an CCXXV, Pierre Frenkiel a écrit : > > I just wanted to know why the Debian wiki is not updated, 2 months after the Stretch release. > > Jessie also used systemd, so that is more two years than two months. > > The answer to that question is simple: it is a wiki, it has not been > updated because you did not update it. Me neither. Please proceed. That looked to be a five minute job. Replace the "Overview" section with the single line "The system initialization process is handled by systemd" and delete all the links except the one to init(1). That's until you get to thinking what the purpose of the page is and look at where it is linked from and what has to be done to make all the parts form a coherent whole. -- Brian.
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| From | Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueuWd-Mv-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185196 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
2017/08/15 1:05 "Brian" <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>: > > On Mon 14 Aug 2017 at 13:22:45 +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > > > Le septidi 27 thermidor, an CCXXV, Pierre Frenkiel a écrit : > > > I just wanted to know why the Debian wiki is not updated, 2 months after the Stretch release. > > > > Jessie also used systemd, so that is more two years than two months. > > > > The answer to that question is simple: it is a wiki, it has not been > > updated because you did not update it. Me neither. Please proceed. > > That looked to be a five minute job. Replace the "Overview" section > with the single line "The system initialization process is handled > by systemd" and delete all the links except the one to init(1). > > That's until you get to thinking what the purpose of the page is and > look at where it is linked from and what has to be done to make all > the parts form a coherent whole. I wonder if you will now begin to recognize why the forced universal upgrade to systemd was a thoroughly ill-conceived bit of social engineering. -- Joel Rees http://reiisi.blogspot.com
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 14:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uemci-3H5-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185166 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:09:24 +0200 (CEST) Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Erik Christiansen wrote: > > > > > It's fine to add new stuff to *nix, but the user interface for > > existing stuff has to remain, or it's not worth a biscuit. (c.f. > > postfix, which provides a sendmail-style interface for us > > old-timers.) > > thanks Erik for your explanations, but actually I see no good reason > to revert to sysinit. I just wanted to know why the Debian wiki is > not updated, 2 months after the Stretch release. > Stretch? Systemd was default init for Jessie, the previous stable. Worse, an upgrade of Wheezy to Jessie would actually change the init system used, thus breaking almost every Debian server in the world. What the *nix world *really* needs is a worm to locate all old documentation on the Net, and at the very least, mark it OBSOLETE in very big letters. The problem, as Erik says, is that the interface to large chunks of *nix is continuously changing, and surprise, surprise, instructions for fixing problems are almost all out of date and useless. Particularly sound. And Grub. And the various suspends. And... -- Joe
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 15:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uen8l-4fl-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185171 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > What the *nix world *really* needs is a worm to locate all old > documentation on the Net, and at the very least, mark it OBSOLETE in > very big letters. I entirely agree, but if there is no available worm, it is a full-time job... best regards, -- Pierre Frenkiel
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| From | Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 15:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uenBn-4G7-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185171 |
Le septidi 27 thermidor, an CCXXV, Joe a écrit :
> Stretch? Systemd was default init for Jessie, the previous stable.
> Worse, an upgrade of Wheezy to Jessie would actually change the init
> system used, thus breaking almost every Debian server in the world.
I must be lucky, none of the servers that I handle broke because of
that.
> The problem, as Erik says, is that the interface to large chunks of
> *nix is continuously changing, and surprise, surprise, instructions
> for fixing problems are almost all out of date and useless.
Well, writing documentation is not fun. It is necessary, but almost
always neglected. I do not think it is significantly better on the
proprietary side of the barrier, but not with the same kind of flaws
("to print the document, use the 'print' menu").
Regards,
--
Nicolas George
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 15:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uenUK-4MF-27@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185175 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 15:04:19 +0200
Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Le septidi 27 thermidor, an CCXXV, Joe a écrit :
> > Stretch? Systemd was default init for Jessie, the previous stable.
> > Worse, an upgrade of Wheezy to Jessie would actually change the init
> > system used, thus breaking almost every Debian server in the
> > world.
>
> I must be lucky, none of the servers that I handle broke because of
> that.
I upgraded a Sid to use systemd, and I've tried upgrading a backup of
my Wheezy server. Both broke quite badly, neither was bootable, though
both were repairable. I gave up with the unstable, it wasn't worth
chasing down all the minor problems, so I reinstalled with systemd added
at an early stage. An unstable installation is, by definition,
expendable.
I believe I have the server backup OK on Squeeze now, but I'm working
up the courage to do the real thing. There was nothing fundamentally
wrong, but a separate /usr really is a show-stopper with systemd, and
it's nice to have a working firewall...
>
> > The problem, as Erik says, is that the interface to large chunks of
> > *nix is continuously changing, and surprise, surprise, instructions
> > for fixing problems are almost all out of date and useless.
>
> Well, writing documentation is not fun. It is necessary, but almost
> always neglected. I do not think it is significantly better on the
> proprietary side of the barrier, but not with the same kind of flaws
> ("to print the document, use the 'print' menu").
>
Yes, I know... but a bit more backward compatibility would help a lot.
Sound seems to have settled somewhat now, but there were at least ten
years of regular breakage, with nearly all of the information out there
being non-applicable. The official documentation almost never helps
when something breaks (with a few notable exceptions, which I cannot
currently bring to mind), we're reliant on other people who have fixed
the same problem. It's this unofficial documentation which never gets
updated or retired, being mostly frozen in closed forum topics, much of
them not even carrying a date.
--
Joe
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 16:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueo4r-4Q6-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185178 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > updated or retired, being mostly frozen in closed forum topics, much of > them not even carrying a date. I always thougth that it was a big error of Tim Berners-Lee not oblige to date in a visible way all web pages.
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| From | Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 16:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueoe6-58o-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185179 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:52:09PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote: >On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > >>updated or retired, being mostly frozen in closed forum topics, much of >>them not even carrying a date. > > I always thougth that it was a big error of Tim Berners-Lee not > oblige to date in a visible way all web pages. Which datestamp would you like? The date the page was served? The date the page was rendered? The date the page was authored? The date the article was authored? The date the software used to render the article was authored? If I write a site that scrapes questions from Stack Overflow for the purposes of serving ads alongside (you know the pages I mean), do you want me to put my date on there, or Stack Overflow's date? I'm thinking we might need to raise an RFC here, for proper clarity. -- For more information, please reread.
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueoxr-5fc-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185180 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Darac Marjal wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:52:09PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote:
>>
>>> updated or retired, being mostly frozen in closed forum topics, much of
>>> them not even carrying a date.
>>
>> I always thougth that it was a big error of Tim Berners-Lee not
>> oblige to date in a visible way all web pages.
>
> Which datestamp would you like? The date the page was served? The date the
> page was rendered? The date the page was authored? The date the article was
> authored? The date the software used to render the article was authored?
>
> If I write a site that scrapes questions from Stack Overflow for the purposes
> of serving ads alongside (you know the pages I mean), do you want me to put my
> date on there, or Stack Overflow's date?
>
I don't think it'so complicated:
when you write something, you add the date of the day you wrote it.
when googling, a lot of time is wasted reading obsolete informations..
Do you imagine newspapers without the date, and people browsing these
newspapers to find some information on past events?
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| From | Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 16:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueoH7-5ij-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185185 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 04:25:21PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote: >On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Darac Marjal wrote: > >>On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 03:52:09PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote: >>>On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: >>> >>>>updated or retired, being mostly frozen in closed forum topics, much of >>>>them not even carrying a date. >>> >>> I always thougth that it was a big error of Tim Berners-Lee not >>> oblige to date in a visible way all web pages. >> >>Which datestamp would you like? The date the page was served? The >>date the page was rendered? The date the page was authored? The date >>the article was authored? The date the software used to render the >>article was authored? >> >>If I write a site that scrapes questions from Stack Overflow for the >>purposes of serving ads alongside (you know the pages I mean), do >>you want me to put my date on there, or Stack Overflow's date? >> > > I don't think it'so complicated: > when you write something, you add the date of the day you wrote it. > when googling, a lot of time is wasted reading obsolete informations.. > Do you imagine newspapers without the date, and people browsing these > newspapers to find some information on past events? > My point is that while, back in the time Mr Berners-Lee created the web, pages used to be created statically, the vast majority of web pages these days are dynamic. In the early days, yes. publishing a web page was like publishing a news article. You wrote the HTML file, you saved that to a web server and you served that page. If we go with that idea, that would suggest that Google web pages (which, for argument's sake, we shall assume have a stable code base) would be dated from some months ago, based on when someone "wrote" the page. The date at which the google web results page was "written" has no relevancy on the freshness of the results. Similarly, if we take the "date" to be the date the page is rendered, what use has that? Can you cite google and say "I was the top search for 'GoogleWhackBlatts' on Thursday 2nd May"? No, because Google's search results are dynamic. You can't look back at the archive to see how google looked the day you were born, etc. I'm not saying that putting a date on "howto" pages, "reamde"s etc is not useful. I'm just saying that an "Authored on" date for EVERY web page doesn't make sense. -- For more information, please reread.
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 18:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueqpD-6qC-89@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185187 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Darac Marjal wrote:
> If we go with that idea, that would suggest that Google web pages (which, for
> argument's sake, we shall assume have a stable code base) would be dated from
> some months ago, based on when someone "wrote" the page. The date at which the
> google web results page was "written" has no relevancy on the freshness of the
> results.
I think it has. If I look for something today with Google, the results
will be today's results. If I print these results to read them later, it's
relevant to know when they were found, as the same search will give
different results later (of course, you can tell me that I can
write myself the date on the paper...)
>
> Similarly, if we take the "date" to be the date the page is rendered, what use
> has that? Can you cite google and say "I was the top search for
> 'GoogleWhackBlatts' on Thursday 2nd May"? No, because Google's search results
> are dynamic. You can't look back at the archive to see how google looked the
> day you were born, etc.
>
> I'm not saying that putting a date on "howto" pages, "reamde"s etc is not
> useful. I'm just saying that an "Authored on" date for EVERY web page doesn't
> make sense.
Yes, the most important is the date of documents, but as a lot of people are
lazy or dizzy, and they will not put it if they are not obliged. The experience
clearly proves that I'm right.
If you think that some date useless, you are not obliged to use it.
best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel
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| From | Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueoxr-5fc-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185178 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > up the courage to do the real thing. There was nothing fundamentally > wrong, but a separate /usr really is a show-stopper with systemd, and > it's nice to have a working firewall... The standard Debian initramfs is supposed to handle that, if it is not doing that properly, it is a bug we should fix... -- Henrique Holschuh
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 17:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueptx-5Ok-33@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185186 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:21:24 -0300 Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> wrote: > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > > up the courage to do the real thing. There was nothing fundamentally > > wrong, but a separate /usr really is a show-stopper with systemd, > > and it's nice to have a working firewall... > > The standard Debian initramfs is supposed to handle that, if it is not > doing that properly, it is a bug we should fix... > Which? I wrote my own firewall pseudo-daemon, long before iptables-persistent, and although it complied with the dependency-based boot requirements, systemd could not deal with it. No big deal, iptables-persistent does the job, but it would have been nice if systemd was happy with the old script. As to the separate /usr, I know I can muck about with initrd to get a separate /usr mounted during boot, but all things considered, it seemed preferable to merge it into /. It was just a pain because it was a non-LVM setup with many awkwardly-placed partitions, inherited from a very old installation. What I actually did was to install Wheezy to a new hard drive with merged /usr, and run the server with that, then tried the upgrade on the old drive installed in other hardware. When it failed to boot, and the boot log threw up several /usr-related errors, I just went ahead with the merge, after which it booted OK. When I do upgrade the real Wheezy, /usr is already in /, that's one less problem. -- Joe
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| From | Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 18:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueqfU-6mT-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185194 |
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:21:24 -0300 > Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > > > up the courage to do the real thing. There was nothing fundamentally > > > wrong, but a separate /usr really is a show-stopper with systemd, > > > and it's nice to have a working firewall... > > > > The standard Debian initramfs is supposed to handle that, if it is not > > doing that properly, it is a bug we should fix... > > > > Which? Separate /usr. The initramfs is supposed to mount it early enough and then do whatever is required (suck as re-kicking udev, etc) for it to be equivalent to /usr-in-/ for the rest of the system. [...] > As to the separate /usr, I know I can muck about with initrd to get a > separate /usr mounted during boot, but all things considered, it seemed > preferable to merge it into /. It was just a pain because it was a Yes, it is safer. And recreating filesystems with a newer toolset every so often is a good idea. mkfs.xfs in stretch will do on-storage-format v5, for example, which gives you metadata CRC, d_type, and some other nice stuff that is not present on on-storage-format v4 used by jessie... -- Henrique Holschuh
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ueNvP-443-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185198 |
On Mon 14 Aug 2017 at 13:10:44 (-0300), Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 11:21:24 -0300 > > Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 14 Aug 2017, Joe wrote: > > > > up the courage to do the real thing. There was nothing fundamentally > > > > wrong, but a separate /usr really is a show-stopper with systemd, > > > > and it's nice to have a working firewall... > > > > > > The standard Debian initramfs is supposed to handle that, if it is not > > > doing that properly, it is a bug we should fix... > > > > > > > Which? > > Separate /usr. The initramfs is supposed to mount it early enough and > then do whatever is required (suck as re-kicking udev, etc) for it to be > equivalent to /usr-in-/ for the rest of the system. I didn't realise anyone was still doing separate /usr. > > As to the separate /usr, I know I can muck about with initrd to get a > > separate /usr mounted during boot, but all things considered, it seemed > > preferable to merge it into /. It was just a pain because it was a > > Yes, it is safer. And recreating filesystems with a newer toolset every > so often is a good idea. mkfs.xfs in stretch will do on-storage-format > v5, for example, which gives you metadata CRC, d_type, and some other > nice stuff that is not present on on-storage-format v4 used by jessie... As long as one realises that there can be implications when running different Debian vintages on a system; eg my main system on this laptop is jessie, but I also have a stretch installation in a partition which my main system can't fsck: systemd-fsck[263]: /dev/sda2 has unsupported feature(s): metadata_csum systemd-fsck[263]: e2fsck: Get a newer version of e2fsck! Cheers, David.
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