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Groups > linux.debian.user > #185161 > unrolled thread

no /etc/inittab

Started byPierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com>
First post2017-08-14 11:50 +0200
Last post2017-08-19 10:40 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 144 — 27 participants

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Contents

  no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 11:50 +0200
    Re: no /etc/inittab Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-14 13:00 +0200
      Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 13:10 +0200
        Re: no /etc/inittab Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-14 13:40 +0200
          Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 13:50 +0200
          Re: no /etc/inittab Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 18:10 +0200
            Re: no /etc/inittab Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200
        Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 14:00 +0200
          Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 15:00 +0200
          Re: no /etc/inittab Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-14 15:30 +0200
            Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 15:50 +0200
              Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:00 +0200
                Re: no /etc/inittab Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-14 16:10 +0200
                  Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
                    Re: no /etc/inittab Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-14 16:40 +0200
                      Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 18:30 +0200
              Re: no /etc/inittab Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
                Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 17:30 +0200
                  Re: no /etc/inittab Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 18:20 +0200
                    Re: no /etc/inittab David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200
            Re: no /etc/inittab Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 12:10 +0200
              Re: no /etc/inittab David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 22:10 +0200
                Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-19 23:00 +0200
      Re: no /etc/inittab deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
        No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 12:50 +0200
          Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 14:00 +0200
            Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 15:00 +0200
              Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 15:10 +0200
                Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-15 16:20 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:30 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:00 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:30 +0200
                      Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 10:00 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 11:00 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-16 12:00 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
                            Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200
                              Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-16 16:40 +0200
                                Re: Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 17:20 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:40 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 22:00 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-15 22:10 +0200
                              Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 04:00 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
                  No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 09:40 +0200
                Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 17:10 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:30 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:50 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 04:00 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
                Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-15 16:40 +0200
                    No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:10 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-19 14:10 +0200
            Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 17:30 +0200
              Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:40 +0200
                Re: No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-19 11:40 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 15:30 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 15:50 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:20 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:20 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:30 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 17:10 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 20:40 +0200
                              Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:00 +0200
                                Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200
                                  Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:40 +0200
                                    Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:50 +0200
                                Re: No ifconfig Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-08-20 02:10 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 16:50 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> - 2017-08-20 12:00 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-21 15:30 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 16:30 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 19:50 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-20 14:40 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-20 14:50 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-20 17:50 +0200
                              Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-21 05:20 +0200
                                Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 06:00 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-19 23:40 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-08-20 02:20 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-20 14:50 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-21 07:20 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-21 15:00 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 15:10 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 17:10 +0200
                              Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 18:20 +0200
                                Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 19:10 +0200
                                  Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 19:20 +0200
                                    Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 19:50 +0200
                                      Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 20:10 +0200
                                        Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 21:50 +0200
                                Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-22 17:20 +0200
                                Re: No ifconfig Sven Hartge <sven@svenhartge.de> - 2017-08-22 17:20 +0200
                            Re: No ifconfig Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2017-08-21 17:30 +0200
                              No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 10:40 +0200
                            No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 10:20 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-21 17:30 +0200
              Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200
                Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
                  Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:10 +0200
                    Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 20:50 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:30 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 03:40 +0200
                      Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:30 +0200
                        Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 03:50 +0200
                          Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-16 06:40 +0200
      Re: no /etc/inittab Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 21:30 +0200
        Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-14 22:40 +0200
          Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200
            Re: obsolete wiki Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-14 23:50 +0200
              Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
                Re: obsolete wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
                  Re: obsolete wiki Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:40 +0200
                  Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
                    Re: obsolete wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200
                Re: obsolete wiki Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 11:20 +0200
                  Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-28 12:50 +0200
            obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 08:20 +0200
          Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 00:20 +0200
            Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 11:50 +0200
              Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-19 15:10 +0200
              Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 16:00 +0200
                Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 20:00 +0200
                  Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:10 +0200
                    Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200
                  Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-21 15:10 +0200
                    Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 16:30 +0200
                    obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 09:00 +0200
    Re: no /etc/inittab Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200

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#185485

FromJonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM>
Date2017-08-19 12:10 +0200
Message-ID<ug8Rz-8sq-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185175
Joe:

> Stretch? Systemd was default init for Jessie, the previous stable. 
> Worse, an upgrade of Wheezy to Jessie would actually change the init 
> system used, thus breaking almost every Debian server in the world.
>

Nicolas George:

> I must be lucky, none of the servers that I handle broke because of that.
>

You are. Every single Debian 7 system with systemd that I upgraded to 
Debian 8 hit Debian Bug #774153, meaning that the upgrades did not 
complete unattended.

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#185522

FromDavid Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date2017-08-19 22:10 +0200
Message-ID<ugied-5LF-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185485
On Sat 19 Aug 2017 at 10:53:01 (+0100), Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> Joe: [ in https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/08/msg00700.html ]
> 
> >Stretch? Systemd was default init for Jessie, the previous stable.
> >Worse, an upgrade of Wheezy to Jessie would actually change the
> >init system used, thus breaking almost every Debian server in the
> >world.

This describes wheezy/7/sysvinit → change of init → jessie/8/systemd.

> Nicolas George:
> 
> >I must be lucky, none of the servers that I handle broke because of that.

And I had no problem with upgrading like that either.

> You are. Every single Debian 7 system with systemd that I upgraded
> to Debian 8 hit Debian Bug #774153, meaning that the upgrades did
> not complete unattended.

That is a different process with which I have no experience, never
having bothered to run systemd on wheezy. It was advertised IIRC
as a technology preview so I'm not sure it would be wise to have
moved servers onto it.

Cheers,
David.

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#185524

FromJoe <joe@jretrading.com>
Date2017-08-19 23:00 +0200
Message-ID<ugj0C-617-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185522
On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 14:59:46 -0500
David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat 19 Aug 2017 at 10:53:01 (+0100), Jonathan de Boyne Pollard
> wrote:
> > Joe: [ in
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/08/msg00700.html ] 
> > >Stretch? Systemd was default init for Jessie, the previous stable.
> > >Worse, an upgrade of Wheezy to Jessie would actually change the
> > >init system used, thus breaking almost every Debian server in the
> > >world.  
> 
> This describes wheezy/7/sysvinit → change of init → jessie/8/systemd.
> 
> > Nicolas George:
> >   
> > >I must be lucky, none of the servers that I handle broke because
> > >of that.  
> 
> And I had no problem with upgrading like that either.
> 
> > You are. Every single Debian 7 system with systemd that I upgraded
> > to Debian 8 hit Debian Bug #774153, meaning that the upgrades did
> > not complete unattended.  
> 
> That is a different process with which I have no experience, never
> having bothered to run systemd on wheezy. It was advertised IIRC
> as a technology preview so I'm not sure it would be wise to have
> moved servers onto it.
> 

I don't think it actually did much, I never bothered investigating it.
But sid of course had a developing version of it. I deliberately
switched a mature and heavily-loaded sid to it and after a short
struggle got it to boot. But it became very flaky, occasionally didn't
boot, didn't shut down, and had other little foibles, so I did a
get-selections, installed a new minimal stable (I think jessie was
still testing then), upgraded to sid, added systemd then did the
set-selections and full rebuild. I don't think all is as well as it
might be, but it's OK. I think a machine really needs systemd right
from installation to be maximally stable.

-- 
Joe

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#185184

Fromdeloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
Date2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
Message-ID<ueoxr-5fc-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185165
Erik Christiansen wrote:

> Now, if that brings back ifconfig as well, I won't have to rummage about
> finding which package that might be in.
> 

$ dpkg -S /sbin/ifconfig
net-tools: /sbin/ifconfig

should be installed manually as it is no longer part of the base system

... and I thought I learned about systemd too late ... this made my day

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#185244 — No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromErik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net>
Date2017-08-15 12:50 +0200
SubjectNo ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueHA6-bQ-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185184
On 14.08.17 16:23, deloptes wrote:
> Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> > Now, if that brings back ifconfig as well, I won't have to rummage about
> > finding which package that might be in.
> > 
> 
> $ dpkg -S /sbin/ifconfig
> net-tools: /sbin/ifconfig
> 
> should be installed manually as it is no longer part of the base system
> 
> ... and I thought I learned about systemd too late ... this made my day

Many thanks, deloptes. You made mine, by returning an old friend.
If it's no longer part of the base system, then perhaps the system is
too base?

Erik

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#185251 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromNicolas George <george@nsup.org>
Date2017-08-15 14:00 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueIFP-RA-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185244
L'octidi 28 thermidor, an CCXXV, Erik Christiansen a écrit :
> If it's no longer part of the base system, then perhaps the system is
> too base?

Please ellaborate. Why should ifconfig be part of the base system?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#185253 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromErik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net>
Date2017-08-15 15:00 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueJBV-1pV-45@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185251
On 15.08.17 13:33, Nicolas George wrote:
> L'octidi 28 thermidor, an CCXXV, Erik Christiansen a écrit :
> > If it's no longer part of the base system, then perhaps the system is
> > too base?
> 
> Please ellaborate. Why should ifconfig be part of the base system?

With pleasure. It is the most basic and useful *nix networking tool,
traditional since well back in the last millennium, spanning hp-ux,
sunos, then solaris, and various linux distros, in my experience. Even
if used mostly interrogatively these days, it is the quickest way to
check how "eth0" is currently encrypted, what the IP address is, etc. It
is not anything which needs to be added - we just need busybodies to
refrain from taking it out.

Granted, there's quite a bit of cruft taking up space, like
NetworkMunger. I've been forced to wipe that from several Ubuntu
versions in particular, as networking wouldn't function until I did.
Everything has always been sweet once that was gone. Debian does seem to
have it more under control, though, so I'll trade - leave both.

Erik

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#185255 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromDejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com>
Date2017-08-15 15:10 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueJLA-1Ix-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185253
On 15-08-17, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 15.08.17 13:33, Nicolas George wrote:
> > L'octidi 28 thermidor, an CCXXV, Erik Christiansen a écrit :
> > > If it's no longer part of the base system, then perhaps the system is
> > > too base?
> > 
> > Please ellaborate. Why should ifconfig be part of the base system?
> 
> With pleasure. It is the most basic and useful *nix networking tool,
> traditional since well back in the last millennium, spanning hp-ux,
> sunos, then solaris, and various linux distros, in my experience. Even
> if used mostly interrogatively these days, it is the quickest way to
> check how "eth0" is currently encrypted, what the IP address is, etc. It
> is not anything which needs to be added - we just need busybodies to
> refrain from taking it out.
> 
> Granted, there's quite a bit of cruft taking up space, like
> NetworkMunger. I've been forced to wipe that from several Ubuntu
> versions in particular, as networking wouldn't function until I did.
> Everything has always been sweet once that was gone. Debian does seem to
> have it more under control, though, so I'll trade - leave both.
> 
> Erik
> 

And what exactly do you miss in ifconfig and net-tools package, that you
can not do with ip, which is part of iproute2 package that comes as part
of base system?

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#185256 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromGreg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org>
Date2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueK4W-1Pe-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185255
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 03:03:35PM +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> And what exactly do you miss in ifconfig and net-tools package, that you
> can not do with ip, which is part of iproute2 package that comes as part
> of base system?

What iproute2 and net-tools are BOTH missing is a sane, script-friendly,
user-controllable output format.

What iproute2 is specifically missing (as far as I can determine):
consistent option syntax, and any report analogous to "netstat -in":

wooledg:~$ netstat -in
Kernel Interface table
Iface      MTU    RX-OK RX-ERR RX-DRP RX-OVR    TX-OK TX-ERR TX-DRP TX-OVR Flg
eth0      1500  8254258      0      0 0       7682795      0      0      0 BMRU
lo       65536   579959      0      0 0        579959      0      0      0 LRU

In a world where virtually every possible output of every reporting
command is atrociously hard to read, that one is the least bad.  You can
actually get the interface names with only two reasonably simple parsing
operations (strip the first line, then strip everything from the first
whitespace to EOL).

The closest analog I've found in iproute2 is "ip link", which looks like:

wooledg:~$ ip link
1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1
    link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff

Parsing the interface names out of THAT is significantly harder.

The real tragedy is the missed opportunity.  Linux developers wrote
iproute2 from scratch, but they failed to add any kind of user-specified
output format (cf. ps h -o ppid, find -printf %h, etc.), or to sit down
and THINK about how the user interface should be designed.  Instead of
a clean, friendly, consistent, useful new tool we just got this weird
monstrosity that feels like someone decided to change things just because
they were bored one day, without any rhyme or reason or plan.

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#185263 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromErik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net>
Date2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueKHE-2hj-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185256
On 15.08.17 09:29, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> wooledg:~$ netstat -in
> Kernel Interface table
> Iface      MTU    RX-OK RX-ERR RX-DRP RX-OVR    TX-OK TX-ERR TX-DRP TX-OVR Flg
> eth0      1500  8254258      0      0 0       7682795      0      0      0 BMRU
> lo       65536   579959      0      0 0        579959      0      0      0 LRU
> 
   was compared with:

> wooledg:~$ ip link
> 1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1
>     link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
> 2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
>     link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
> 
> Parsing the interface names out of THAT is significantly harder.

Yes, true, for a human that's indisputable. However, a first
off-the-cuff quickie does the trick machine-wise:

$ gawk '/^[0-9]:/ {print $2}' /tmp/mail 
lo:
eth0:

So the situation is eminently remediable, I figure. Obviously the
first-cut snippet can easily be made more robust, but with known input,
there is no immediate need.

> The real tragedy is the missed opportunity.  Linux developers wrote
> iproute2 from scratch, but they failed to add any kind of user-specified
> output format (cf. ps h -o ppid, find -printf %h, etc.), or to sit down
> and THINK about how the user interface should be designed.  Instead of
> a clean, friendly, consistent, useful new tool we just got this weird
> monstrosity that feels like someone decided to change things just because
> they were bored one day, without any rhyme or reason or plan.

If the output remains unchanged, then a bit of awk¹ can easily extract
items of interest. Scripts break very badly, though, if the output
format is fiddled with after it has been in the wild for any extended
period.

But I'm drawn to the familiar per-interface ordered reporting of:

$ ifconfig -a
eth0      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:27:21:a0:4f:1e  
          inet addr:192.168.1.2  Bcast:192.168.1.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
          inet6 addr: ee81::233:17ff:fea3:2f5e/64 Scope:Link
          UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
          RX packets:573689 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:338733 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 
          RX bytes:800824302 (763.7 MiB)  TX bytes:27874966 (26.5 MiB)
          Interrupt:23 Base address:0xee00 

lo        Link encap:Local Loopback  
          inet addr:127.0.0.1  Mask:255.0.0.0
          inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
          UP LOOPBACK RUNNING  MTU:16436  Metric:1
          RX packets:12551 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:12551 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 
          RX bytes:3328348 (3.1 MiB)  TX bytes:3328348 (3.1 MiB)

That's highly amenable to both human and machine parsing, I submit.

Erik

¹ Yes, I've heard rumours of other text processing languages arising in
  the latter years of the last millennium, but they're probably a
  passing fad, I figure.

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#185265 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromDarac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk>
Date2017-08-15 16:20 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueKRj-2kD-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185256

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 09:29:37AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 03:03:35PM +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
>> And what exactly do you miss in ifconfig and net-tools package, that you
>> can not do with ip, which is part of iproute2 package that comes as part
>> of base system?
>
>What iproute2 and net-tools are BOTH missing is a sane, script-friendly,
>user-controllable output format.

Agreed. systemd's "journalctl" gets it right here - a human readable 
"short" output (admittedly, journalctl then goes overboard with the 
number of options for timestamps, but they ARE a thorny issue), a 
verbose output showing all the information and a json output which is 
MUCH more easily parsed by scripts (none of this "The third field from 
the left, except for the first line, which is a header" malarkey).

>
>What iproute2 is specifically missing (as far as I can determine):
>consistent option syntax, and any report analogous to "netstat -in":
>
>wooledg:~$ netstat -in
>Kernel Interface table
>Iface      MTU    RX-OK RX-ERR RX-DRP RX-OVR    TX-OK TX-ERR TX-DRP TX-OVR Flg
>eth0      1500  8254258      0      0 0       7682795      0      0      0 BMRU
>lo       65536   579959      0      0 0        579959      0      0      0 LRU
>
>In a world where virtually every possible output of every reporting
>command is atrociously hard to read, that one is the least bad.  You can
>actually get the interface names with only two reasonably simple parsing
>operations (strip the first line, then strip everything from the first
>whitespace to EOL).
>
>The closest analog I've found in iproute2 is "ip link", which looks like:
>
>wooledg:~$ ip link
>1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1
>    link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
>2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
>    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
>
>Parsing the interface names out of THAT is significantly harder.

Have you looked at "ip -s link"? It's not quite as easy to parse as 
"netstat -in", but all the information's there.

>
>The real tragedy is the missed opportunity.  Linux developers wrote
>iproute2 from scratch, but they failed to add any kind of user-specified
>output format (cf. ps h -o ppid, find -printf %h, etc.), or to sit down
>and THINK about how the user interface should be designed.  Instead of
>a clean, friendly, consistent, useful new tool we just got this weird
>monstrosity that feels like someone decided to change things just because
>they were bored one day, without any rhyme or reason or plan.
>

util-linux is, arguably, going the right way here. libsmartcols[1] 
allows for some rather flexible output options: trees, tables, UTF8 
handling, terminal-width truncation etc.

[1] http://karelzak.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/libsmartcols-pretty-output-for-everyone.html


-- 
For more information, please reread.

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#185267 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromGreg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org>
Date2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<ueLkm-2ya-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185265
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 03:14:02PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> Have you looked at "ip -s link"? It's not quite as easy to parse as "netstat
> -in", but all the information's there.

Actually, "ip -o link" is a step in the right direction:

wooledg:~$ ip -o link
1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1\    link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000\    link/ether a0:8c:fd:c3:89:e0 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff

Still requires multiple steps to extract the interface names (unless
you use awk, or some other language with wide field delimiters), and
still not as nice as ps h -o ppid "$pid", but I guess we won't ever get
anything nicer.

wooledg:~$ ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}'
lo
eth0

The only other scripting language I know that can do splitting with
multi-character separators is perl.

wooledg:~$ ip -o link | perl -ne '@x=split(/: /); print $x[1], "\n"'
lo
eth0

Bash and Tcl can't do it, at least not with their native toolsets.
I don't know python or ruby or any others.

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#185278 — Re: No ifconfig

FromPierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com>
Date2017-08-15 18:30 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig
Message-ID<ueMT8-3Ar-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185267
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}'

   and even shorter:
   ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2

   BTW, I suggest to abandon, in the subject, the reference to the
   OP's subject ("was ..."), as this thread has really
   nothing to do with inittab stuff

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#185282 — Re: No ifconfig

FromGreg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org>
Date2017-08-15 19:00 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig
Message-ID<ueNm9-3Lx-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185278
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 06:24:42PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}'
> 
>   and even shorter:
>   ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2

They are not equivalent.  Yours leaves extra whitespace.

wooledg:~$ ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2 | hd
00000000  20 6c 6f 0a 20 65 74 68  30 0a                    | lo. eth0.|
0000000a
wooledg:~$ ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}' | hd
00000000  6c 6f 0a 65 74 68 30 0a                           |lo.eth0.|
00000008

So, to use the output of yours, an additional step would be needed
(whitespace trimming).

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#185289 — Re: No ifconfig

FromPierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com>
Date2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig
Message-ID<ueNFw-48q-37@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185282
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 06:24:42PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>
>>> ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}'
>>
>>   and even shorter:
>>   ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2
>
> They are not equivalent.  Yours leaves extra whitespace.
>
> wooledg:~$ ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2 | hd
> 00000000  20 6c 6f 0a 20 65 74 68  30 0a                    | lo. eth0.|
> 0000000a
> wooledg:~$ ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}' | hd
> 00000000  6c 6f 0a 65 74 68 30 0a                           |lo.eth0.|
> 00000008
>
> So, to use the output of yours, an additional step would be needed
> (whitespace trimming).
>
If it's to list the interface names, I don't see why the leading space is
annoying.

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#185301 — Re: No ifconfig

FromDavid Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date2017-08-15 20:30 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig
Message-ID<ueOLg-4NY-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185289
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 19:13:54 (+0200), Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 06:24:42PM +0200, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> >>On Tue, 15 Aug 2017, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >>
> >>>ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}'
> >>
> >>  and even shorter:
> >>  ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2
> >
> >They are not equivalent.  Yours leaves extra whitespace.
> >
> >wooledg:~$ ip -o link | cut -d : -f 2 | hd
> >00000000  20 6c 6f 0a 20 65 74 68  30 0a                    | lo. eth0.|
> >0000000a
> >wooledg:~$ ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}' | hd
> >00000000  6c 6f 0a 65 74 68 30 0a                           |lo.eth0.|
> >00000008
> >
> >So, to use the output of yours, an additional step would be needed
> >(whitespace trimming).
> >
> If it's to list the interface names, I don't see why the leading space is
> annoying.

I assume then that you wrote your recipe just for our
entertainment. An error like that can waste a lot of time
when a non-trivial script produces unexpected results.

Cheers,
David.

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#185331 — Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromClive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com>
Date2017-08-16 10:00 +0200
SubjectRe: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<uf1p9-4gv-41@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185267
> wooledg:~$ ip -o link | awk -F": " '{print $2}'
> lo
> eth0
> 
> The only other scripting language I know that can do splitting with
> multi-character separators is perl.
> 
> wooledg:~$ ip -o link | perl -ne '@x=split(/: /); print $x[1], "\n"'
> lo
> eth0
> 
> Bash and Tcl can't do it, at least not with their native toolsets.

Bash can, e.g.

$ oldIFS="$IFS"; IFS=': '; ip -o link | while read num interface other; do declare -p interface; done; IFS="$oldIFS"
declare -- interface="lo"
declare -- interface="eth0"
declare -- interface="br0"
declare -- interface="vethJWC4DL"


-- 
Cheers,
Clive

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#185336 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromGene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2017-08-16 11:00 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<uf2lc-4Su-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185331
On Wednesday 16 August 2017 03:28:43 Clive Standbridge wrote:

> oldIFS="$IFS"; IFS=': '; ip -o link | while read num interface other;
> do declare -p interface; done; IFS="$oldIFS"

Now thats an interesting bit of bashism, and deeper into it than I have 
waded. But for this local network, I know what they are so I can't think 
of a situation that would make me use it.  But it may well be useful in 
the future, so the message is marked to protect it from the expiry 
rules.

Thank you Clive.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#185338 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2017-08-16 12:00 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<uf3hg-5r5-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185336
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 04:58:24AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 16 August 2017 03:28:43 Clive Standbridge wrote:
> 
> > oldIFS="$IFS"; IFS=': '; ip -o link | while read num interface other;
> > do declare -p interface; done; IFS="$oldIFS"
> 
> Now thats an interesting bit of bashism, and deeper into it than I have 
> waded. But for this local network, I know what they are so I can't think 
> of a situation that would make me use it.  But it may well be useful in 
> the future, so the message is marked to protect it from the expiry 
> rules.

Nice idiomatic little script.

Changing the input field separator (IFS) to parse lines is actually a
shell classic and should work on most shells (I just tested with dash),

The "declare", OTOH, is pretty Bashist. But it can be replaced by
a simple "echo":

This should be more portable (at least across the Bourne family):

  oldIFS="$IFS"; IFS=': '; ip -o link | while read num interface other;
    do echo "$interface"; done; IFS="$oldIFS" 

Cheers
- -- tomás
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cZ4An1lJ/2IVkGKF4Gc/nfyVa/0vV75M
=nic4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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#185347 — Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]

FromGreg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org>
Date2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
SubjectRe: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab]
Message-ID<uf5Cq-70D-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#185338
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 11:58:06AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>   oldIFS="$IFS"; IFS=': '; ip -o link | while read num interface other;
>     do echo "$interface"; done; IFS="$oldIFS" 

ip -o link | while IFS=' :' read -r _ i _; do echo "<$i>"; done

There's no need to set IFS globally and then attempt to restore it,
especially since "restoring" it fails if it was previously unset.
Just set it for the duration of the read command.

The alternative is to make IFS local, within a function:

foo() {
  local IFS=' :'
  ip -o link | while read -r _ i _; do echo "<$i>"; done
}
foo

But once again, this is overkill, when IFS only needs to be modified in
the execution environment of the read command.  (Also less portable,
because POSIX shell functions don't necessarily have "local".)

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