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[OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group

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  [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-02 18:20 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-12-02 19:10 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-02 20:20 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-12-02 20:40 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-02 21:00 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-12-02 23:10 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-03 02:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 14:10 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 14:00 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-12-03 14:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:30 +0100
                  Back to the question [Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:50 +0100
                    Re: Back to the question [Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-12-03 17:20 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Tom Furie <tom@furie.org.uk> - 2017-12-03 14:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:20 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 21:50 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2017-12-05 04:40 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 13:30 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-03 14:10 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 16:20 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2017-12-04 03:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-04 05:30 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2017-12-04 07:50 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-12-04 09:30 +0100
                    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-12-04 14:50 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-12-02 21:10 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 14:30 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-12-03 11:10 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 15:20 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-12-03 11:20 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-03 15:30 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-12-04 01:30 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-04 05:00 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-12-04 05:40 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-12-04 09:00 +0100
    Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2017-12-04 12:10 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-05 17:30 +0100
        Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2017-12-05 20:10 +0100
          Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-05 22:00 +0100
            Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> - 2017-12-06 07:50 +0100
              Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2017-12-06 12:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-06 12:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2017-12-06 12:40 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-06 14:40 +0100
      Re: [OT] Relavant mailing list or USENET group Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-12-22 18:00 +0100

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#189534

> Disabling the radio in a smartphone should be easy.
                                      ^^^^^^
As a moral imperative, I agree.  In practice it seems to be harder than
... it should


        Stefan

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#189536

I wrote;
> Disabling the radio in a smartphone should be easy.

Stefan writes:
> As a moral imperative, I agree.  In practice it seems to be harder than
> ... it should

It has an antenna.  A sharp knife or some conductive tape or adhesive
and Bob's your uncle.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#189540

> It has an antenna.  A sharp knife or some conductive tape or adhesive
> and Bob's your uncle.

Hmm... I thought the antenna on those devices nowadays are physically
just traces printed on a PCB.  They're not necessarily very easy to find
AFAIK (hell, just opening the device such that you can close it again is
becoming quite difficult) and conductive tape probably wouldn't help
since the traces are coated, but if you manage to open the device, then
find the relevant traces and know how to use a knife to cut some part of
it... maybe it'll work (tho since it's very high-frequency signals,
cutting a trace might be like adding an inline capacitance which might
not really stop the signal :-( ).  I think I'd need the help of an
engineer designing such antennas before I'd be convinced that I've
managed to do what I intended.


        Stefan

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#189542

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 01:49:03AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > It has an antenna.  A sharp knife or some conductive tape or adhesive
> > and Bob's your uncle.
> 
> Hmm... I thought the antenna on those devices nowadays are physically
> just traces printed on a PCB.

For some brands and models, just "holding 'em wrong" goes a long way
(sorry, I couldn't resist).

But yes, that's why I still walk around with a pre-2000 dumbphone.
I hate it being treated as some kind of consumer-sheeple.

Cheers
- -- t
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#189549

I wrote:
> It has an antenna.  A sharp knife or some conductive tape or adhesive
> and Bob's your uncle.

Stefan writes:
Hmm... I thought the antenna on those devices nowadays are physically
just traces printed on a PCB.

They are.

> They're not necessarily very easy to find AFAIK...

They're pretty obvious (at least to me as an engineer).  Someone who
cared a lot about this issue and had access to lots of phones could put
up a site with photos and drawings.

> and conductive tape probably wouldn't help since the traces are
> coated...

The resist coating is very thin so the tape would be very close to the
foil.  Capacitive coupling at those frequencies would effectively short
all the parts of the antenna together (and all parts of the traces are
not coated with solder resist).  Remember the Apple phones that quit if
you held them wrong?

> tho since it's very high-frequency signals, cutting a trace might be
> like adding an inline capacitance which might not really stop the
> signal

It would stop it.

Better to find the rf chip and cut a power supply pin, though.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#189484

On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:17:14 -0600
Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:

> On 12/02/2017 12:02 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:17:39 PM Richard Owlett wrote:  
> >> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".  
> >
> > Well, I am curious about why you don't want it to be a smartphone,
> > and whether doing something like removing the SIM from a cell phone
> > (and possibly epoxying the socket) would meet your needs?
> >  
> 
> You might say it's the 3 P's ;/
> [ Philosophical Practicality Prudence ]
> 
> Philosophical - application of Linux philosophy
>   > As stated by McIlroy, and generally accepted throughout the
>   > Unix   
> community, Unix programs have always been expected to follow the
> concept of DOTADIW, or "Do One Thing and Do It Well."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Do_One_Thing_and_Do_It_Well
> 

So you'll be avoiding anything containing systemd...

> Practicality - avoidance of Android
> Most "smartphones" come only with Android which presumes someone who
> has never met the user knows best what the user needs (let alone
> wants) and then goes to great lengths to prevent the end user from
> installing a suitable OS.
> 

And there, I think, you encounter the brick wall. It cannot possibly
be accidental that modern portable hardware makes it so difficult to
install Linux, or indeed any alternative OS. I think it is not desired
that people should carry around devices which are not under the complete
control of the manufacturer, particularly in terms of data collection.
In short, I think you're trying to fight the system.

I wish you luck: I have an eight-year-old Acer Aspire One, which I
bought second-hand and which must be on borrowed time. It has Ethernet
and three real USB ports, and runs straight Debian unstable without a
trace of a problem. I've been looking to replace it for a few years,
but have seen nothing promising. It's all 'runs Debian flawlessly,
although the sound, Bluetooth and wifi don't work yet...' and even that
in a chroot with the host kernel running.

-- 
Joe

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#189507

On 12/02/2017 02:01 PM, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 13:17:14 -0600
> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/02/2017 12:02 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:17:39 PM Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
>>>
>>> Well, I am curious about why you don't want it to be a smartphone,
>>> and whether doing something like removing the SIM from a cell phone
>>> (and possibly epoxying the socket) would meet your needs?
>>>
>>
>> You might say it's the 3 P's ;/
>> [ Philosophical Practicality Prudence ]
>>
>> Philosophical - application of Linux philosophy
>>   > As stated by McIlroy, and generally accepted throughout the
>>   > Unix
>> community, Unix programs have always been expected to follow the
>> concept of DOTADIW, or "Do One Thing and Do It Well."
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Do_One_Thing_and_Do_It_Well
>>
>
> So you'll be avoiding anything containing systemd...

<chuckle> Systemd hasn't {that I know of} has gotten in my way yet.

>
>> Practicality - avoidance of Android
>> Most "smartphones" come only with Android which presumes someone who
>> has never met the user knows best what the user needs (let alone
>> wants) and then goes to great lengths to prevent the end user from
>> installing a suitable OS.
>>
>
> And there, I think, you encounter the brick wall. It cannot possibly
> be accidental that modern portable hardware makes it so difficult to
> install Linux, or indeed any alternative OS. I think it is not desired
> that people should carry around devices which are not under the complete
> control of the manufacturer, particularly in terms of data collection.

Monopolistic enterprises have fallen before ;}

> In short, I think you're trying to fight the system.

Who? ME?

Not so long ago an Emeritus Professor and a senior professor had a 
conversation in my presence.
Emeritus Prof: "Do you know that this young man {I was in my 50's}
                 can be persistent?"
Senior Prof:    "<pause> Yes, <longer pause> about what he wants to be."

>
> I wish you luck: I have an eight-year-old Acer Aspire One, which I
> bought second-hand and which must be on borrowed time. It has Ethernet
> and three real USB ports, and runs straight Debian unstable without a
> trace of a problem. I've been looking to replace it for a few years,
> but have seen nothing promising. It's all 'runs Debian flawlessly,
> although the sound, Bluetooth and wifi don't work yet...' and even that
> in a chroot with the host kernel running.
>

Ahhh! Recorded potential market penetration has just increased 50% .

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#189499

On 2017-12-02, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> This is part of my search for a LINUX PDA. [1] [2]
>
Me me me me me me me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4biamr/a_list_of_handheldpocket_linux_computers/

Be a real hacker and make a NODE:

https://n-o-d-e.net/terminal_2.html


-- 
"Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the
earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."
— Jesus

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#189510

On 12/03/2017 04:07 AM, Curt wrote:
> On 2017-12-02, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>> This is part of my search for a LINUX PDA. [1] [2]
>>
> Me me me me me me me.

Ahhh Documented potential market has increased again.

>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4biamr/a_list_of_handheldpocket_linux_computers/
>

More proof of historical market interest.
Doesn't address my market segment:
   1. list includes ONLY devices with keyboard. I prefer no keyboard.
   2. most discontinued or never made {some in crowd funding stage}.

> Be a real hacker and make a NODE:
>
> https://n-o-d-e.net/terminal_2.html

<chuckle> And that's mild compared to what people who know me would say 
about me and DIY or hardware hacking being mentioned in same sentence.

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#189500

Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:

> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".

What specific features must the device omit, to meet this criterion?

Is it sufficient that the device does not connect to a cellular
telephone network? Or are there other features (which, specifically?)
that must also be omitted?

-- 
 \       “My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves |
  `\              to fact, not to try and make facts harmonise with my |
_o__)                   aspirations.“ —Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860-09-23 |
Ben Finney

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#189511

On 12/03/2017 04:14 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:
>
>> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
>
> What specific features must the device omit, to meet this criterion?

Presence of internal hardware capable of radiating in cell network 
spectrum (omitting SIM card insufficient).

>
> Is it sufficient that the device does not connect to a cellular
> telephone network? Or are there other features (which, specifically?)
> that must also be omitted?
>

No

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#189531

On Sun 03 Dec 2017 at 08:21:46 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 12/03/2017 04:14 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> >Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:
> >
> >>6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
> >
> >What specific features must the device omit, to meet this criterion?
> 
> Presence of internal hardware capable of radiating in cell network
> spectrum (omitting SIM card insufficient).

As today's priorities are mobility and connectivity,
your market has just evaporated.

> >Is it sufficient that the device does not connect to a cellular
> >telephone network? Or are there other features (which, specifically?)
> >that must also be omitted?
> >
> 
> No

No————is the wrong answer (paraphrasing Angus Deayton).

Cheers,
David.

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#189535

On 12/03/2017 06:26 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Sun 03 Dec 2017 at 08:21:46 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 12/03/2017 04:14 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
>>> Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> 6. *NOT* be a "smartphone".
>>>
>>> What specific features must the device omit, to meet this criterion?
>>
>> Presence of internal hardware capable of radiating in cell network
>> spectrum (omitting SIM card insufficient).
>
> As today's priorities are mobility and connectivity,
> your market has just evaporated.

You err -- I've not loss any weight much less evaporated.
I'm just not part of a market that you see yourself a member of.

>
>>> Is it sufficient that the device does not connect to a cellular
>>> telephone network? Or are there other features (which, specifically?)
>>> that must also be omitted?
>>>
>>
>> No
>
> No————is the wrong answer (paraphrasing Angus Deayton).

There were two possible sets as an answer.
A null set *OR* a non null set.
I chose the first.


>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
>

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#189537

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2017-12-03 at 22:49, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 12/03/2017 06:26 PM, David Wright wrote:
> 
>> On Sun 03 Dec 2017 at 08:21:46 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12/03/2017 04:14 AM, Ben Finney wrote:

>>>> What specific features must the device omit, to meet this criterion?
>>>
>>> Presence of internal hardware capable of radiating in cell
>>> network spectrum (omitting SIM card insufficient).
>> 
>> As today's priorities are mobility and connectivity, your market
>> has just evaporated.
> 
> You err -- I've not loss any weight much less evaporated. I'm just
> not part of a market that you see yourself a member of.

I parsed his statement as meaning "with the addition of that criterion,
the size of the expectable market for such a device falls to such low
levels that no one is going to bother manufacturing the device". Or
words to that effect.

>>>> Is it sufficient that the device does not connect to a
>>>> cellular telephone network? Or are there other features (which,
>>>> specifically?) that must also be omitted?
>>> 
>>> No
>> 
>> No————is the wrong answer (paraphrasing Angus Deayton).
> 
> There were two possible sets as an answer. A null set *OR* a non null
> set. I chose the first.

But an answer to which question?

There were two questions given.

If the answer to the first question is "no", then the answer to the
second cannot be "no", and vice versa; in other words, the questions are
mutually exclusive.

Your answer could mean "no, it is not sufficient that the device does
not connect to a cellular telephone network" (in which case "yes, there
are other features which must also be omitted"; what are they?),

or it could mean "no, there are no other features which must also be
omitted" (in which case "yes, it is sufficient that the device does not
connect to a cellular telephone network"),

but it cannot mean both.

When faced with two mutually exclusive questions, if you want to be
understood, you must either answer both, or make it clear which question
you are answering.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#189541

Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> writes:

> On 12/03/2017 04:14 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > What specific features must the device omit, to meet this criterion?
>
> Presence of internal hardware capable of radiating in cell network
> spectrum (omitting SIM card insufficient).

If that is the *only* way to satisfy your requirements, along with all
the other features you require: I am confident you will find no-one
selling such a device ready for you to use.

You will need to build such a thing yourself, or with some group of
others who share such a strict set of requirements.

-- 
 \        “The difference between religions and cults is determined by |
  `\                      how much real estate is owned.” —Frank Zappa |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#189545

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Saturday,  2 Dec 2017 at 11:17, Richard Owlett wrote:
> This is part of my search for a LINUX PDA. [1] [2]

OpenPandora and it's replacement, the Pyra (not yet ready, mind you).

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/

I have the former with Debian but awaiting the latter with eagerness...

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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#189580

On 12/04/2017 05:00 AM, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Saturday,  2 Dec 2017 at 11:17, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> This is part of my search for a LINUX PDA. [1] [2]
>
> OpenPandora and it's replacement, the Pyra (not yet ready, mind you).
>
> https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/
>
> I have the former with Debian but awaiting the latter with eagerness...
>

I had been to https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ but there was 
no indication of where they were on the "initial design"/"product 
available" timeline.

As to web based fora, I've not discovered a way to efficiently read/find 
posts of interest. In mailing lists and USENET I make extensiveness use 
of the tagging and marking options of SeaMonkey. [I date from era of 
"paper tape"/"high speed paper tape. ;]

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#189582

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tuesday,  5 Dec 2017 at 10:24, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I had been to https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ but there
> was no indication of where they were on the "initial design"/"product
> available" timeline.

Hard to say.  All the bits are mostly there.  Some final snagging on
cases with a few prototypes out in the wild.  Many of us are hoping
(waiting impatiently ;-)) for mid-2018 but this is a very small
endeavour so difficult to estimate.  The whole process from scratch to
date is openly discussed on the boards and in itself is interesting!

> As to web based fora, I've not discovered a way to efficiently
> read/find posts of interest.

I use gnus in Emacs for RSS feeds which can give you summaries of
activities on some fora (but not all).  Web-based fora are lacking in
functionality when compared with USENET unfortunately.  Step
backwards.  My current pet peeve is discourse based systems (e.g. Julia
language forum).

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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#189585

On 12/05/2017 12:59 PM, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> On Tuesday,  5 Dec 2017 at 10:24, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> I had been to https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ but there
>> was no indication of where they were on the "initial design"/"product
>> available" timeline.
>
> Hard to say.  All the bits are mostly there.  Some final snagging on
> cases with a few prototypes out in the wild.  Many of us are hoping
> (waiting impatiently ;-)) for mid-2018 but this is a very small
> endeavour so difficult to estimate.  The whole process from scratch to
> date is openly discussed on the boards and in itself is interesting!

I understand completely. Back in the 70's I was a junior engineer in 
Power Supply Engineering at Digital Equipement involved from first 
prototype  past what was supposed to have been EOL for H720-E. (Any DEC 
people out there ;)

>
>> As to web based fora, I've not discovered a way to efficiently
>> read/find posts of interest.
>
> I use gnus in Emacs for RSS feeds

I've seen the term "RSS", but never had any contact with it. Not sure if 
SeaMonkey 2.48 can use it.

> which can give you summaries of
> activities on some fora (but not all).  Web-based fora are lacking in
> functionality when compared with USENET unfortunately.  Step
> backwards.  My current pet peeve is discourse based systems (e.g. Julia
> language forum).
>

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#189591

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tuesday,  5 Dec 2017 at 14:53, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> I've seen the term "RSS", but never had any contact with it. Not sure
> if SeaMonkey 2.48 can use it.

No idea.  Never used SeaMonkey...

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, org 9.1.3

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