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video driver?

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  video driver? "D. R. Evans" <doc.evans@gmail.com> - 2017-07-17 22:20 +0200
    Re: video driver? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-07-17 22:40 +0200
    Re: video driver? Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2017-07-17 22:50 +0200
    Re: video driver? Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2017-07-17 23:10 +0200
      Re: video driver? Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-18 05:40 +0200
        Re: video driver? Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2017-07-18 07:50 +0200
          Re: video driver? RavenLX <ravenlx@sitesplace.net> - 2017-07-18 13:00 +0200
            Re: video driver? Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2017-07-18 14:20 +0200
              Re: video driver? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-18 15:50 +0200
            Re: video driver? Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-18 20:30 +0200
              Free software (was: video driver?) Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2017-07-18 21:00 +0200
                Re: Free software Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-07-19 02:20 +0200
                  Re: Free software Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-07-19 02:50 +0200
                    Re: Free software Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-19 03:30 +0200
                  Re: Free software Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-19 02:50 +0200
                    Re: Free software Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-07-19 03:40 +0200
                      Re: Free software rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-07-19 14:10 +0200
                      Re: Free software Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-07-20 00:10 +0200
                  Re: Free software Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-07-19 06:00 +0200
                    Re: Free software Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-19 06:40 +0200
                      Re: Free software <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-19 10:40 +0200
                      Re: Free software Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-19 10:50 +0200
                        Re: Free software Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-20 00:50 +0200
                          Re: Free software Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-20 01:10 +0200
                            Re: Free software Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-20 02:00 +0200
                            Re: Free software Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-07-20 03:30 +0200
                              Re: Free software rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-07-20 13:40 +0200
                                Re: Free software Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-07-20 15:00 +0200
                                  Re: Free software David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-07-20 22:50 +0200
                                Re: Free software Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2017-07-20 20:50 +0200
                                  Re: Free software Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-21 02:30 +0200
                      Re: Free software Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-07-20 00:20 +0200
                        Re: Free software Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-07-20 03:10 +0200
                          Re: Free software Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 04:00 +0200
                            Re: Free software Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-07-22 05:50 +0200
                              Re: Free software Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-07-22 07:10 +0200
                              Re: Free software rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-07-22 13:30 +0200
                                Re: Free software Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-07-22 14:50 +0200
                                Re: Free software Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-07-22 17:00 +0200
                  Re: Free software Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-07-20 13:40 +0200
              Re: video driver? Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2017-07-18 21:20 +0200
              Re: video driver? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-18 21:30 +0200
                Re: video driver? Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-18 22:10 +0200
                  Re: video driver? "tomas@tuxteam.de" <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-18 22:30 +0200
                  Re: video driver? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-19 02:20 +0200
                Re: video driver? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-19 02:00 +0200
              Re: video driver? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2017-07-18 21:40 +0200

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#183881 — Re: Free software

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On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:33:14PM -0500, Doug wrote:

[...]

> I thought I put this to bed, but apparently not.

That's because the way you write suggests that you didn't
"get" a couple of things which are very dear to many folks
around here (note I say "suggest". I can't know for sure.
A communication problem can be at any end or... in the
middle :)

> The complaint was about NVidia software. Well, there has
> been for some time a "FREE" program. How come it's not
> satisfactory for so many users of Nvidia cards?

That's because there are two "free". An old saw puts it
like "free as in beer" vs "free as in speech". To adapt
it to more modern terminology, I'd say "free as in Facebook"
vs -uh- "free as in Debian" ;-)

> All the wonderful Linux programmers have had YEARS to
> modify it and make it better than what Nvidia provides,
> but it seems that they haven't succeeded.

But how? Nvidia *refuses* to publish documentation on its
hardware. Only painstaking reverse engineering is possible
(which the shrinkwrap EULA forbids: thanks heavens, this
can be ignored in most civilised jurisdictions).

Given that, the results of the Nouveau project can only
be called impressive.

> I am very happy with my Nvidia cards and Nvidia drivers.
> What the devil is everybody bitching about?

That's nice for you. Note that I'm by no means implying you
should (have the moral obligation of, or whatever) change
that. I'm just trying to offer you an insight into how
some of us tick. Mutual understanding can only help, no?

> And, of course, doesn't it make sense that the company that
> invented and produces and sells a product ought to know more
> about how to operate it than a bunch of "de-engineers?"

Sometimes. Sometimes not. Case in point: at my $DAYJOB, I
am (among others) responsible for the care and feeding of
a small program I wrote a couple of years ago. Since this
program's users are in a department on its financial way
down, bug fixing for this program doesn't get allocated
too much resources. I'm not *allowed* to fix bugs (which
I know annoy its users!). I try to do some minimum under
the radar out of respect for the users.

In a nutshell: whenever the customers (those who pay) and
the users (those who suffer) are not the same, you'll get
conflicts of interest, and the company's aim won't be to
deliver the best program possible. The wonderful engineers
in the company can't put "all their art" at your service.

Your vision of Nvidia is too idealized. The engineer in
there is just human, pressed between constraints, and
most probably overworked. Or outsourced.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#183882 — Re: Free software

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> From: dmcgarrett@optonline.net
> To: Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>, debian-user@lists.debian.org
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> I thought I put this to bed, but apparently not. <snip ... snip>

You thought well because if we are clarifying the description
of reality we can not utilize the grocery store logic of choice. Either
one final thought convinces everyone that it is correct or there
still is room for discussion. I have no beef with nvidia in specific,
they are just as bad as any for-profit organization, so it is not
specific.

> I"ve stated my case. Let"s drop it here!

But this is the problem, you can not be one sided in having
the authority to end a conversation. If Nvidia one day decides
it is not profiting from their little monopoly and decides to
fold its gc production and r&d, they have the "legal right" to
destroy all knowledge produced and owned by them. The
work and findings of hundreds of people developing nvidia
products is in the hands of one entity (stock-holders).
The state gives them the right to conduct this atrocity of
destroying knowledge and deny society access to it, even
when it has no value for them anymore.
I believe society has the right to criticize this mutual practice
by state and owner of knowledge. Any industry is a school for
society and it exists due to lack of alternatives for society.
This is what we are talking about, I think. Internalizing the
logic of the capitalist and its puppet the state, the logic of
market, into our conversation as "logical" is a product of
propaganda and demagogues of the media and other
"institutions". A society must be able to survive having
alternatives past capitalism.
This is why communities as debian and linux are under attack
by capitalists of all sorts so they can blackmail society not to
be able to survive without them.
So whose side are you on boyz? Autonomy, or dependency?

> --doug

You can put it to rest now if you like. I suspect you might not.
But should this conversation be open to everyone? Should
stockholders and executives of large corporations participate
freely? What if they hire professional writers and debaters
to participate and advocate their interests?
(AK)
PS Before you (anyone) go off topic and criticize my email
practice (common practice here to escape the issue) please
refer me to a safe and anonymous way of participating on
the list because I trust protonmail more than many people
on this list to record my connection. Protonmail still has no
pop or imap. I prefer using ascii as well in writing and
reading, but we do not live in a free world.

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#183938 — Re: Free software

FTR

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> From: dmcgarrett@optonline.net
>>> To: Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>, debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>> [ important stuff, check the archives]
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> I thought I put this to bed, but apparently not.   <snip ... snip>
>>
>
> You thought well because if we are clarifying the description
> of reality we can not utilize the grocery store logic of choice. Either
> one final thought convinces everyone that it is correct or there
> still is room for discussion.

... or we decide we are tired of discussion, which sometimes is not a
good thing.

> I have no beef with nvidia in specific,
> they are just as bad as any for-profit organization, so it is not
> specific.
>
>> I"ve stated my case. Let"s drop it here!

You have a lousy attitude. You get to air your armpits, but no one
who disagrees with you does.

> But this is the problem, you can not be one sided in having
> the authority to end a conversation.  If Nvidia one day decides
> it is not profiting from their little monopoly and decides to
> fold its gc production and r&d, they have the "legal right" to
> destroy all knowledge produced and owned by them.  The
> work and findings of hundreds of people developing nvidia
> products is in the hands of one entity (stock-holders).
> The state gives them the right to conduct this atrocity of
> destroying knowledge and deny society access to it, even
> when it has no value for them anymore.

This is another aspect of "closed source" gratis technology that is
often swept under the rug.

It used to be, for instance, that a TV in the US had a full diagram
of working parts in the back case, so that the TV could still be
fixed even if the manufacturer suddenly wiped their books and
disappeared.

> I believe society has the right to criticize this mutual practice
> by state and owner of knowledge.  Any industry is a school for
> society and it exists due to lack of alternatives for society.
> This is what we are talking about, I think.  Internalizing the
> logic of the capitalist and its puppet the state, the logic of
> market, into our conversation as "logical" is a product of
> propaganda and demagogues of the media and other
> "institutions".  A society must be able to survive having
> alternatives past capitalism.
>
> [...]

Again, just for the record, politics itself may be off topic, but we
have to give each other a little leeway where politics intersects
with the license which allows us to cooperate peacefully in this
community.

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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#183939 — Re: Free software

On 07/19/2017 05:44 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>
> This is another aspect of "closed source" gratis technology that is
> often swept under the rug.
>
> It used to be, for instance, that a TV in the US had a full diagram
> of working parts in the back case, so that the TV could still be
> fixed even if the manufacturer suddenly wiped their books and
> disappeared.
>
>
Not at all true! As a sideline I was a TV serviceman in the 1960s.
There usually was  a drawing of the tube numbers and positions
somewhere in the set--more usually on an inside surface of the
wooden box. There certainly was no schematic diagram.
However, it was almost always possible to obtain real service
information including schematic diagrams of the circuits from
a paid service, the name of which escapes me now. (The pages
always included useless ones for record players and such that
nobody ever heard of!)

--doug--almost 80!

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#183942 — Re: Free software

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> On 07/19/2017 05:44 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>>
>> This is another aspect of "closed source" gratis technology that is
>> often swept under the rug.
>>
>> It used to be, for instance, that a TV in the US had a full diagram
>> of working parts in the back case, so that the TV could still be
>> fixed even if the manufacturer suddenly wiped their books and
>> disappeared.
>>
>>
> Not at all true! As a sideline I was a TV serviceman in the 1960s.
> There usually was  a drawing of the tube numbers and positions

Thus, the working parts. Except it was not just the tubes, it usually
included whatever an independent technician could get as a "part".

> somewhere in the set--more usually on an inside surface of the
> wooden box.

Yeah, in the back [of the] case. :-/

> There certainly was no schematic diagram.

What do you call a schematic diagram, then?

> However, it was almost always possible to obtain real service
> information including schematic diagrams of the circuits from
> a paid service,

SAMS was one of the services which provide more detailed
schematic diagrams. Their existence owe no small debt to the
fact that "intellectual property" rights of inventors of
usually-not-all-that-new art were not allowed by the law then
to take precedence over the rights of the inventors of prior art,
nor of the community that gives birth to art over the existing
state-of-the-art.

And there's another word whose legal definition seems to have
changed: state-of-the-art seems to now mean to lawyers
something it cannot logically mean to those who practice the art.
Too many salescrew-turned-lawyers, maybe.

> the name of which escapes me now. (The pages
> always included useless ones for record players and such that
> nobody ever heard of!)

Funny. I often used those useless diagrams for record players
that I guess you never heard of. Maybe it was because I used them
in the seventies, not the sixties? ;-)

For those who are missing the allegories, source code is somewhat
the parallel of those diagrams, and we don't have them now except
in very rare cases.

And, where those diagrams kept still-usable electronics out of the
landfill for a few more years, lack of the source code results in a lot
of waste in the current economy, contributing to pollution and other
things that don't, ultimately, help the economy.

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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#183944 — Re: Free software

On Wednesday 19 July 2017 19:04:33 Doug wrote:

> On 07/19/2017 05:44 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> > This is another aspect of "closed source" gratis technology that is
> > often swept under the rug.
> >
> > It used to be, for instance, that a TV in the US had a full diagram
> > of working parts in the back case, so that the TV could still be
> > fixed even if the manufacturer suddenly wiped their books and
> > disappeared.
>
> Not at all true! As a sideline I was a TV serviceman in the 1960s.
> There usually was  a drawing of the tube numbers and positions
> somewhere in the set--more usually on an inside surface of the
> wooden box. There certainly was no schematic diagram.
> However, it was almost always possible to obtain real service
> information including schematic diagrams of the circuits from
> a paid service, the name of which escapes me now. (The pages
> always included useless ones for record players and such that
> nobody ever heard of!)
>
> --doug--almost 80!

Doug is correct. Every shop had a subscription to SAM's and toward the 
end as many as 9 or 10, tall 4 drawer fileing cabinets to keep the stuff 
in if the subscription was for all of the stuff.

Doug is chasing me, I'll be 83 in October. But by 1962 I had a 1st phone, 
and put it to work in 1964 by getting a job as transmitter operator at 
KOTA-TV in Rapid City.  Never really left broadcast engineering until I 
retired from the CE position after 18 years in that office at WDTV here 
in WV, at nearly 67 yo, in 2002.  Very little went out to be repaired, 
if I could get the parts, I could fix it.

Pretty good for a guy with an 8th grade (State of Iowa version, USA) 
education. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#183971 — Re: Free software

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 09:27:16 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
> Doug is correct. Every shop had a subscription to SAM's and toward the
> end as many as 9 or 10, tall 4 drawer fileing cabinets to keep the stuff
> in if the subscription was for all of the stuff.

Ahh, Sam's was a good clue (for me)--I think the series was called Sam's 
Photofacts.

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#183976 — Re: Free software

On Thursday 20 July 2017 07:32:04 rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 09:27:16 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Doug is correct. Every shop had a subscription to SAM's and toward
> > the end as many as 9 or 10, tall 4 drawer fileing cabinets to keep
> > the stuff in if the subscription was for all of the stuff.
>
> Ahh, Sam's was a good clue (for me)--I think the series was called
> Sam's Photofacts.

Yup.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#184006 — Re: Free software

On Thu 20 Jul 2017 at 08:59:08 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 20 July 2017 07:32:04 rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 09:27:16 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > Doug is correct. Every shop had a subscription to SAM's and toward
> > > the end as many as 9 or 10, tall 4 drawer fileing cabinets to keep
> > > the stuff in if the subscription was for all of the stuff.
> >
> > Ahh, Sam's was a good clue (for me)--I think the series was called
> > Sam's Photofacts.
> 
> Yup.

I looked them up and found they had, for example, a manual for
the Ferrograph Series 3. Would that be a badge engineered
Ferrograph manual or a different publication¹? I had manuals
for the Series 2 (hardbound) and Series 7 (comb-bound) machines
that I/we possessed. They had full alignment instructions,
circuit diagrams etc.

In the UK I had no difficulty with getting manuals and circuit
diagrams from the likes of Quad, Leak, Radford, Tandberg, to name
but a few. I just wrote to them and they sent them back, gratis.
That seemed to be the norm back then (fifties through seventies).

¹ie like the entirely original Haynes manuals for cars.

Cheers,
David.

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#183993 — Re: Free software

On 07/20/2017 06:32 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 09:27:16 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Doug is correct. Every shop had a subscription to SAM's and toward the
>> end as many as 9 or 10, tall 4 drawer fileing cabinets to keep the stuff
>> in if the subscription was for all of the stuff.
> Ahh, Sam's was a good clue (for me)--I think the series was called Sam's
> Photofacts.
>
>
>
You can look it up on the Internet. Just put Sam's Photofact into
your browser!

(I remember it as Photofacts, just like rhkramer, but the 'net
has it as singular.)

--doug

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#184017 — Re: Free software

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> On 07/20/2017 06:32 AM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 09:27:16 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>
>>> Doug is correct. Every shop had a subscription to SAM's and toward the
>>> end as many as 9 or 10, tall 4 drawer fileing cabinets to keep the stuff
>>> in if the subscription was for all of the stuff.
>>
>> Ahh, Sam's was a good clue (for me)--I think the series was called Sam's
>> Photofacts.
>>
>>
>>
> You can look it up on the Internet. Just put Sam's Photofact into
> your browser!
>
> (I remember it as Photofacts, just like rhkramer, but the 'net
> has it as singular.)

Well, a couple of filing cabinets full would be plural, wouldn't it?

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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#183935 — Re: Free software

On 07/19/2017 12:33 AM, Doug wrote:
> All the wonderful Linux programmers
> have had YEARS to modify it and make it better than what
> Nvidia provides, but it seems that they haven't succeeded.
> I am very happy with my Nvidia cards and Nvidia drivers.
> What the devil is everybody bitching about?
> 
> And, of course, doesn't it make sense that the company that
> invented and produces and sells a product ought to know more
> about how to operate it than a bunch of "de-engineers?"


Amen. I paid large dollars for my dual nVidia card setup driving four 
monitors quite nicely with the nVidia supplied driver. And, over the 
many years, read nothing but complaints about AMD/Intel video which has 
provided many a evil chuckle. I agree, it comes down to if owners of 
nVidia products are complaining and everyone else minding their own 
business. More than likely the ONLY reason nvidia pays Linux users any 
attention at all is for NASA contracts. If I were them, I'd tell us to 
go to hell. Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#183943 — Re: Free software

On Wednesday 19 July 2017 18:16:16 Ric Moore wrote:

> On 07/19/2017 12:33 AM, Doug wrote:
> > All the wonderful Linux programmers
> > have had YEARS to modify it and make it better than what
> > Nvidia provides, but it seems that they haven't succeeded.
> > I am very happy with my Nvidia cards and Nvidia drivers.
> > What the devil is everybody bitching about?
> >
> > And, of course, doesn't it make sense that the company that
> > invented and produces and sells a product ought to know more
> > about how to operate it than a bunch of "de-engineers?"
>
> Amen. I paid large dollars for my dual nVidia card setup driving four
> monitors quite nicely with the nVidia supplied driver. And, over the
> many years, read nothing but complaints about AMD/Intel video which
> has provided many a evil chuckle. I agree, it comes down to if owners
> of nVidia products are complaining and everyone else minding their own
> business. More than likely the ONLY reason nvidia pays Linux users any
> attention at all is for NASA contracts. If I were them, I'd tell us to
> go to hell. Ric

The NVidia drivers have a huge problem if they are asked to co-exist with 
any system that depends on real time IRQ response.  This generally 
included computers used for machine control. When a major screen redraw 
is needed, its not uncommon for the NVidia driver to lock the machines 
resources up for 400 milliseconds.  If at the time this occurs, the 
machine is 3 milliseconds from turning a corner, which if it doesn't 
turn, will put the cutting tool in heavy contact with the part, wrecking 
the part and likely breaking the tool, with a potential cost of $40 to 
$400 for the tool, and several hundred more for the wrecked part, which 
has to be started from scratch with a new piece of metal.

The nouveau driver doesn't do the extended machine hogging and there may 
be times when the backplotted video might be half a second behind the 
machine because of that, but linuxcnc itself knows exactly where the 
machine is millisecond by millisecond. And the machine does precisely 
what I wrote the code to tell it do do.

So we don't badmouth the nvidia cards, but we've zero use for the nvidia 
drivers. I have nvidia video in 3 of my 4 metal carving machines, and 
the nouveau driver runs all 3 quite satisfactorily. With down right 
boring power fail to power fail stability.

The 4th machine is a 3/4 ton Sheldon lathe thats nearly 70 years old. But 
with only 2 axis's to track, an r-pi 3b is getting the job done quite 
nicely.  The r-pi's video sucks dead toads thru soda straws, so I am 
looking at a rock64 board with 4Gb of dram, no USB-2 data pipeline 
bottleneck and dual mali gfx processors but its not shipping till the 
first of the month & I'll give it a couple months to sort out the infant 
mortality problems new boards always have. That, and getting a stretch 
built with an RT-Preempt kernal.  Stretch will finally ship with a 
working gtk3 editor so we can make some even prettier gfx for linuxcnc.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#184053 — Re: Free software

On 07/19/2017 09:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> The NVidia drivers have a huge problem if they are asked to co-exist with
> any system that depends on real time IRQ response. 

Which are thankfully few and far between. You could probably just use a 
VESA driver and some S3 Virge video card to get the same performance and 
resolution that you need. But, anyone else who needs accelerated 
graphics will use the nvidia supplied driver. Thank you Gene, you just 
proved the case that if you want to put a $300 video card in a head-lock 
and punch it repeatedly in the face, use the Nouveau driver. :) Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#184054 — Re: Free software

On Friday 21 July 2017 21:59:17 Ric Moore wrote:

> On 07/19/2017 09:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The NVidia drivers have a huge problem if they are asked to co-exist
> > with any system that depends on real time IRQ response.
>
> Which are thankfully few and far between.

Admittedly a small niche in the market.  But we could be a piece of 
making American great again if bot shoved out the buss door and 
flattened in the mad exodus of technical excellence to the Chinese 
mainland.

> You could probably just use 
> a VESA driver and some S3 Virge video card to get the same performance
> and resolution that you need.

Not hardly, the vesa standard, and the cards that support it cannot do 
more that 15 frames a second, at nowhere near the resolution we need, 
which these days is 1920P @ 60 fps. You can buy $90 monitors at wallies 
that can do that today.  I just did 90 days ago.

> But, anyone else who needs accelerated 
> graphics will use the nvidia supplied driver.

Define accelerated Ric. That 1920P @ 60 fps is nominally twice as fast as 
the human eye can discern. I can be quite happy at 30fps, interlaced, 
and I do not have a machine that cannot do at least that, except an r-pi 
3b, and I'm waiting to see if there are any show stoppers in the 4Gb of 
ram you get with a rock64, which ships with an even faster cpu, and 
claims no usb2 speed i/o bottleneck which is currently killing the pi on  
my bigger lathe.  The pi's video is maybe 7 fps, slow enough to be a 
bother, but it runs the machine with only an occasional stumble for 4 or 
5 milliseconds.  It has not functionally damaged a workpiece yet. (knock  
knock)

> Thank you Gene, you just 
> proved the case that if you want to put a $300 video card in a
> head-lock and punch it repeatedly in the face, use the Nouveau driver.
> :) Ric

Or use a $29 nvidia card and the Nouveau driver, which card does the job 
quite nicely for what we need. And save that $300 for insulin. Good 
enough, don't need any better, and can't see the diff if it is better.  
Thats called optimizing ones use of the resources.

Now if you put a 3500 hp turbojet engine in a 1978 Honda Civic, take it 
to the flats in search of a new land speed record, and it folds up like 
the coors can it is, don't say I didn't try to warn you.  But if you do, 
let me know, and I'll come to Bonneville to watch. I haven't been there 
since 1982 but I was early, and the salt still had 5" of water on it, so 
nothing to see but the Utah road machinery, trying to blade the white 
mud smooth.

And after that lesson in economics, I hope this finds you mobile and in 
better health.  Take care my old friend.

Cheers Ric, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#184056 — Re: Free software

On 07/21/2017 11:49 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Or use a $29 nvidia card and the Nouveau driver, which card does the job
> quite nicely for what we need. 
Again, what YOU need isn't what the OP had in mind, as he's not running 
an RT kernel to drive a CNC rig. He was deciding how to get the most out 
of his nVidia card, not the least. :) Ric

-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#184069 — Re: Free software

On Friday, July 21, 2017 11:49:04 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
> Not hardly, the vesa standard, and the cards that support it cannot do
> more that 15 frames a second, at nowhere near the resolution we need,
> which these days is 1920P @ 60 fps. You can buy $90 monitors at wallies
> that can do that today.  I just did 90 days ago.

Why do you need 1920P @ 60 fps?  I thought you were referring to the needs of 
your machine shop, but, clearly, the next paragraph contradicts that...

> Define accelerated Ric. That 1920P @ 60 fps is nominally twice as fast as
> the human eye can discern. I can be quite happy at 30fps, interlaced,
> and I do not have a machine that cannot do at least that, except an r-pi
> 3b, and I'm waiting to see if there are any show stoppers in the 4Gb of
> ram you get with a rock64, which ships with an even faster cpu, and
> claims no usb2 speed i/o bottleneck which is currently killing the pi on
> my bigger lathe.  The pi's video is maybe 7 fps, slow enough to be a
> bother, but it runs the machine with only an occasional stumble for 4 or
> 5 milliseconds.  It has not functionally damaged a workpiece yet. (knock
> knock)

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#184073 — Re: Free software

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 07:25:27 -0400
rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, July 21, 2017 11:49:04 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Not hardly, the vesa standard, and the cards that support it cannot
> > do more that 15 frames a second, at nowhere near the resolution we
> > need, which these days is 1920P @ 60 fps. You can buy $90 monitors
> > at wallies that can do that today.  I just did 90 days ago.  
> 
> Why do you need 1920P @ 60 fps?  I thought you were referring to the
> needs of your machine shop, but, clearly, the next paragraph
> contradicts that...

That's 1080P. 1920 is the horizontal resolution, the standard is named
for the vertical resolution. A monitor has a lot less work to do than
the rendering software which is producing the picture, and the video
card it runs on.

> 
> > Define accelerated Ric. That 1920P @ 60 fps is nominally twice as
> > fast as the human eye can discern. I can be quite happy at 30fps,
> > interlaced, 

But that's the point of interlace, to refresh at twice the full picture
rate, with alternate sets of lines. 60Hz is around the minimum
necessary for flicker-free viewing, 50Hz is nearly good enough, and
30Hz interlaced gives you two half-pictures at 60Hz.

Interlace causes jitter on stationary pictures, but is best for showing
smooth movement for a given bandwidth, so computer systems generally
produce non-interlaced pictures, and broadcast TV is interlaced. A
computer system producing moving video should be working interlaced for
cleanest motion, but generally isn't because the static parts of the
screen display would show jitter.

Many modern TV receivers will interpolate the interlaced signal to give
'complete' pictures refreshing at 60Hz, and some even
standards-convert to higher refresh rates, though at the cost of some
motion artefacts.

-- 
Joe

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#184079 — Re: Free software

On Saturday 22 July 2017 07:25:27 rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, July 21, 2017 11:49:04 PM Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Not hardly, the vesa standard, and the cards that support it cannot
> > do more that 15 frames a second, at nowhere near the resolution we
> > need, which these days is 1920P @ 60 fps. You can buy $90 monitors
> > at wallies that can do that today.  I just did 90 days ago.
>
> Why do you need 1920P @ 60 fps?  I thought you were referring to the
> needs of your machine shop, but, clearly, the next paragraph
> contradicts that...
>
Why so? I get the 1920P ok, and thats nice with ageing, diabetic 
eyesight.  Its the fps that suffers in this case. Watching htop while 
its running the machine for very long, and theres plenty of cpu to 
spare. The slow fps is clearly the fault of the usb2 pinhole all the 
data that is not gpio related, has to get thru before it gets to the 
hdmi interface and the monitor.

hdparm pretty much detects that, here is a terabyte drive plugged into 
the usb plugs:

pi@picncsheldon:~ $ sudo hdparm -tT /dev/sda3

/dev/sda3:
 Timing cached reads:   866 MB in  2.00 seconds = 433.15 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads:  78 MB in  3.01 seconds =  25.94 MB/sec

Note the nearly 20x slower reads when it has to go thru the usb2 sized 
pinhole. The sd card fares even worse but throws an error:

pi@picncsheldon:~ $ sudo hdparm -tT /dev/mmcblk0p1

/dev/mmcblk0p1:
 Timing cached reads:   BLKFLSBUF failed: Operation not permitted
824 MB in  2.00 seconds = 411.42 MB/sec
BLKFLSBUF failed: Operation not permitted
 Timing buffered disk reads:  40 MB in  1.92 seconds =  20.87 MB/sec
BLKFLSBUF failed: Operation not permitted

I want to see those results from a rock64..  I'll expect something more 
like this:
root@coyote:~# hdparm -tT /dev/sda1

/dev/sda1:
 Timing cached reads:   3330 MB in  2.00 seconds = 1664.90 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads: 534 MB in  3.01 seconds = 177.48 MB/sec

About 8.5x faster.

> > Define accelerated Ric. That 1920P @ 60 fps is nominally twice as
> > fast as the human eye can discern. I can be quite happy at 30fps,
> > interlaced, and I do not have a machine that cannot do at least
> > that, except an r-pi 3b, and I'm waiting to see if there are any
> > show stoppers in the 4Gb of ram you get with a rock64, which ships
> > with an even faster cpu, and claims no usb2 speed i/o bottleneck
> > which is currently killing the pi on my bigger lathe.  The pi's
> > video is maybe 7 fps, slow enough to be a bother, but it runs the
> > machine with only an occasional stumble for 4 or 5 milliseconds.  It
> > has not functionally damaged a workpiece yet. (knock knock)

I put the swap on the r-pi out to a hard drive, so the sd card might last 
a little longer. But it made no difference in apt's speed doing major 
updates since both paths have to go thru that usb2 pinhole. The rock64 
claims to eliminate that, so I'll be most carefully watching their forum 
in the weeks after it ships.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#183972 — Re: Free software

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Le primidi 1er thermidor, an CCXXV, Ben Finney a écrit :
> By analogy: I am not capable of maintaining the house I live in, let
> alone of making significant improvements.
> 
> Yet I benefit from the fact that anyone sufficiently motivated can learn
> to do so and they don't need permission from the people who made the
> house.
> 
> If anyone who wanted to improve the house I live in were prevented from
> doing so without the express permission of the people who made the
> house, you're damned right I would complain.
> 
> I may have no intention of ever doing so myself, but I want a wide-open
> market of people who can do so if I ask, who have learned because no law
> stops them from doing so.

This is a very fine analogy, I will remember it.

For reference, in France, for public buildings designed by prestigious
architects, we have exactly that problem. The architects consider
themselves aaaartists rather than engineers. As a result, you get
buildings with the stairs to the previous and next floor at opposite
ends of a corridor (everybody takes the lift for two floors, obviously)
and naked concrete in a library.

Furthermore, when the people who actually use the building want to make
changes, the architects invoke their so-called intellectual property to
block it. They had to sue just to be allowed to add an invisible varnish
on the concrete to prevent the dust from ruining the books.

In fact, I think this issue is becoming more mainstream, especially with
hardware: "right to repair" is something very present in the news
nowadays.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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