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Installing Debian on an android device

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  Installing Debian on an android device Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-05 02:00 +0200
    Re: Installing Debian on an android device Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 06:30 +0200
      Re: Installing Debian on an android device Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-06 07:20 +0200
        Re: Installing Debian on an android device Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-08 03:40 +0200
          Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-08 09:10 +0200
            Re: Installing Debian on an android device Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-07-08 10:00 +0200
              Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-08 13:40 +0200
              Re: Installing Debian on an android device Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-08 22:00 +0200
                Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-09 07:40 +0200
                  Re: Installing Debian on an android device Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-09 11:20 +0200
                    Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-09 12:30 +0200
                      Re: Installing Debian on an android device Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-09 13:00 +0200
                        Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-09 17:10 +0200
                          Re: Installing Debian on an android device <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-09 17:50 +0200
                            Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-09 22:50 +0200
                              Re: Installing Debian on an android device <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-09 23:20 +0200
                                Re: Installing Debian on an android device deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-10 06:30 +0200
                          Re: Installing Debian on an android device Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-10 01:50 +0200

#183157 — Installing Debian on an android device

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Although I despise such devices, my only experience has been
helping a friend out locating certain settings and installing the proper
software for specific uses.
Lately, a problematic one, ended up in my hands as the owner
gave up on it and purchased a better one. The problem seemed
to be either bad ram cells that the system couldn't probably read
after writing, insufficient ram, or bugs on the system utilizing ram
I thought maybe a debian installation could possibly identify the
issues. It seemed possible, even though there is no root access
on the system. I managed to install debian with a package of
gnu-debian.
Then, after it seemed as a painless successful installation, I
tried to get some gui action. I installed an x-server and up it went.
1 The pointing device doesn't seem to work as described.
2 Through browsing the system from debian I can't find where
android is stored as only the debian installation seem to exist,
although it is clear that android runs as a base still.
3 Would anything past jessie work? Should I try it?
4 It feels like running in VM but it isn't. No root no logins
no user.

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#183165

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
> Although I despise such devices, my only experience has been
> helping a friend out locating certain settings and installing the proper
> software for specific uses.
> Lately, a problematic one, ended up in my hands as the owner
> gave up on it and purchased a better one.  The problem seemed
> to be either bad ram cells that the system couldn't probably read
> after writing, insufficient ram, or bugs on the system utilizing ram
>
> I thought maybe a debian installation could possibly identify the
> issues.

If only we had a common BIOS for the ARM devices.

Unfortunately, we don't. So we can't just boot a CD/USB/SD.

>  It seemed possible, even though there is no root access
> on the system.

I don't know why you would think it possible without root.

>  I managed to install debian with a package of
> gnu-debian.

>From the playstore, I presume? Maybe gnuroot debian?

I used no-root debian or some such for a while.

> Then, after it seemed as a painless successful installation, I
> tried to get some gui action.  I installed an x-server and up it went.
>
> 1  The pointing device doesn't seem to work as described.

Unfortunately, the touchscreen user interface has been redesigned,
and does not cooperate well with the mouse paradigm.

I was able to use a usb mouse through a usb hub on no-root debian.

> 2  Through browsing the system from debian I can't find where
> android is stored as only the debian installation seem to exist,
> although it is clear that android runs as a base still.

Without root, an install of another Linux environment is just the
environment only, linked up so the Android kernel and system tools
substitute for the Debian kernel and some of the Debian system
tools.

It's incomplete, and it's in a sandbox or jail. You aren't allowed
access to the real system.

You can compile and such things, but the object you get runs in the
sandbox with the rest of gnu-root debian.

> 3  Would anything past jessie work?  Should I try it?

It's a rather fragile arrangement, and requires a lot of work to get as
much as you have. Odds are very good you'll break something if you
try that. But, most likely, only in the debian environment.

> 4  It feels like running in VM but it isn't.  No root no logins
> no user.

Exactly.

Installing a real debian will require first jailbreaking the device,
then getting access to the drivers that the manufacturer provides
and customizing them for Debian, then cross-compiling a lot of stuff ...

It isn't easy, and that's why we don't find a debain architecture for
any android devices.

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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#183269

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> From: joel.rees@gmail.com
> To: debian users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>> Although I despise such devices, my only experience has been
>> helping a friend out locating certain settings and installing the proper
>> software for specific uses.
>> Lately, a problematic one, ended up in my hands as the owner
>> gave up on it and purchased a better one. The problem seemed
>> to be either bad ram cells that the system couldn"t probably read
>> after writing, insufficient ram, or bugs on the system utilizing ram
>>
>> I thought maybe a debian installation could possibly identify the
>> issues.
> If only we had a common BIOS for the ARM devices.
> Unfortunately, we don"t. So we can"t just boot a CD/USB/SD.

so this is the primary reason we are limited and android is in control?
One of the first things I tried was lshw but it produced junk

>> It seemed possible, even though there is no root access
>> on the system.
> I don"t know why you would think it possible without root.

I thought it may have been possible to have read rights to take
a glance of how the system is organized. With gnu-root it seems
as debian is contained within an android app. Android can not see
where this installation is and debian can't see android. Like there
is a wall between them, but the android side does have an exit.

>> I managed to install debian with a package of
>> gnu-debian.
>>From the playstore, I presume? Maybe gnuroot debian?

Yes, sorry, it was gnuroot debian. Is there a better one?

> I used no-root debian or some such for a while.

Pretty much anything else I tried seemed to require root
access, so I presume some of these devices allow you such
luxury while the cheaper generic types are locked?

>> Then, after it seemed as a painless successful installation, I
>> tried to get some gui action. I installed an x-server and up it went.
>>
>> 1 The pointing device doesn"t seem to work as described.
> Unfortunately, the touchscreen user interface has been redesigned,
> and does not cooperate well with the mouse paradigm.
> I was able to use a usb mouse through a usb hub on no-root debian.

I may try this because it gets nearly my tolerance to convert it into a
frisbie

>> 2 Through browsing the system from debian I can"t find where
>> android is stored as only the debian installation seem to exist,
>> although it is clear that android runs as a base still.
> Without root, an install of another Linux environment is just the
> environment only, linked up so the Android kernel and system tools
> substitute for the Debian kernel and some of the Debian system
> tools.
> It"s incomplete, and it"s in a sandbox or jail. You aren"t allowed
> access to the real system.
> You can compile and such things, but the object you get runs in the
> sandbox with the rest of gnu-root debian.
>> 3 Would anything past jessie work? Should I try it?
> It"s a rather fragile arrangement, and requires a lot of work to get as
> much as you have. Odds are very good you"ll break something if you
> try that. But, most likely, only in the debian environment.
>> 4 It feels like running in VM but it isn"t. No root no logins
>> no user.
> Exactly.
> Installing a real debian will require first jailbreaking the device,
> then getting access to the drivers that the manufacturer provides
> and customizing them for Debian, then cross-compiling a lot of stuff ...
> It isn"t easy, and that"s why we don"t find a debain architecture for
> any android devices.

It seems as there is a variety among them. The architecture gnuroot
identified is armhf and I haven't investigated far enough to see what
its peculiarities are. I am wondering though whether this is the true
architecture or a simulation by gnuroot to build the environment within
the container.
If you give/force gnuroot to go through orbot to connect to the net,
would it be safe to assume anything contained in it connects through
socks5 proxy?
Is the main obstacle of all this is to crack through the root passw of
android? Would one then be able to replace one system for another?

> --
> Joel Rees

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#183364

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: joel.rees@gmail.com
> To: debian users <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>> Installing a real debian will require first jailbreaking the device,
>> then getting access to the drivers that the manufacturer provides
>> and customizing them for Debian, then cross-compiling a lot of stuff ...
>
> It isn"t easy, and that"s why we don"t find a debain architecture for
> any android devices.
>
>
> It seems as there is a variety among them.  The architecture gnuroot
> identified is armhf and I haven't investigated far enough to see what
> its peculiarities are.  I am wondering though whether this is the true
> architecture or a simulation by gnuroot to build the environment within
> the container.
> If you give/force gnuroot to go through orbot to connect to the net,
> would it be safe to assume anything contained in it connects through
> socks5 proxy?
>
> Is the main obstacle of all this is to crack through the root passw of
> android?  Would one then be able to replace one system for another?

You're on the right track to understanding, but you may be tempted
again about the frisbee thing when you gain the understanding.

gnuroot debian is not debian. It is a shim that hooks most of the API
necessary to simulate debian in the Android environment. And it runs
in a sandbox, like a good little Android app should.

If you want more access to the system, yes, you have to jailbreak the
tablet -- usually using an app that is not a good little Android app, and
is opaque, to boot.

I haven't tried it yet because of the opaqueness, but my tablet is still on
Android 2.4, so it's getting to be time to jailbreak the thing or throw it
away.

The manufacturer has indicated that it will not provide a system update
for the device, so, if I want to update it I will have to waste a lot of time
and money setting up a build environment, work the
manufacturer-supplied drivers over myself, and build the updated thing
myself. I do not have
the money to buy the time, much less the hardware and software.

If I jailbreak it, I may be able to upgrade to something new, like an
Android 4 or 5 pseudo-foss look-alike, or I may not -- assuming I don't
brick the thing while trying to jailbreak it.

I was never able to figure out how to use Google's dev tools to
jailbreak it by hand. They try really hard to convince you it's not
possible.

If I were to try to install Debian on it, it would be the same as trying
to install an updated Android. I'd have to assemble the build
environment and build it myself. Except for one more thing, I'd have
to expect to do even more work making the manufacturer's drivers
work with Debian.

Oh, and one more thing, learning how to set up a Debian build
environment will probably require learning how to set up an Android
build environment first.

I've been looking at this page for a while,

https://www.linux.com/learn/how-get-open-source-android

But the information there is old and getting older.

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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#183366

> I've been looking at this page for a while,
> 
> https://www.linux.com/learn/how-get-open-source-android
> 
> But the information there is old and getting older.

The main question is if you get support for the hardware. If you don't get
support for the hardware, it renders the device unusable.

Best to do is to go to a distribution that targets those devices and see if
your hardware is supported. Then usually there are instructions on how to
install the system on those devices. Unlike to PC with BIOS those devices
have different boot process (look at Raspberry for example).

I am following the work of Jolla (SailFish OS) and their community ports,
but honestly without (Android) apps .... what do you use this device for?
I think Ubuntu has also project targeting mobile devices.

Good luck

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#183372

On Sat, 08 Jul 2017 09:06:51 +0200
deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> I am following the work of Jolla (SailFish OS) and their community
> ports, but honestly without (Android) apps .... what do you use this
> device for? I think Ubuntu has also project targeting mobile devices.
> 

I think that the Holy Grail for many people is a genuinely pocket-sized
computer with Internet, GPS, etc., running a real, general-purpose 
operating system, not a marketing medium. I have an Acer One netbook,
which is nearly what I want except for the size. But then, I do like a
real keyboard, that doesn't disappear just as a web form is about to
time out...

There may also be the hope that with a proper OS, they will control the
device instead of just about anyone on the planet who wants to track
the owner, collect his data or listen in. That's probably not a
realistic goal.

The manufacturers of tablets and smartphones are almost certainly under
some pressure to make it as difficult as possible to run an alternative
OS, in addition to the commercial pressure, of course. It's quite
noticeable that the last couple of versions of Windows have tried quite
hard to discourage people from using non-Microsoft-approved
applications, and to make it appear that an account with Microsoft is
essential in order to even use the computer. That's the direction we're
heading in, not the other way.

-- 
Joe

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#183378

Joe wrote:

> I think that the Holy Grail for many people is a genuinely pocket-sized
> computer with Internet, GPS, etc., running a real, general-purpose
> operating system, not a marketing medium. I have an Acer One netbook,
> which is nearly what I want except for the size. But then, I do like a
> real keyboard, that doesn't disappear just as a web form is about to
> time out...
> 
> There may also be the hope that with a proper OS, they will control the
> device instead of just about anyone on the planet who wants to track
> the owner, collect his data or listen in. That's probably not a
> realistic goal.
> 
> The manufacturers of tablets and smartphones are almost certainly under
> some pressure to make it as difficult as possible to run an alternative
> OS, in addition to the commercial pressure, of course. It's quite
> noticeable that the last couple of versions of Windows have tried quite
> hard to discourage people from using non-Microsoft-approved
> applications, and to make it appear that an account with Microsoft is
> essential in order to even use the computer. That's the direction we're
> heading in, not the other way.

Jolla (SailFish OS) is exactly what you are writing here. However OEMs are
hard to win for small number of devices/low number of sales. So until the
mass does not care what they use and who is tracking them or abusing their
personal data, it will be much harder to get a device with meaningful OS.
IMO ATM there is more freedom regarding such things in the BRICS world than
here in the US$ dominated one. 
The reason is that there at gov. level is a concern about espionage and govs
are looking for alternatives.

I wrote this because before Jolla there was Nokia and MeeGo, which was
running on debian - a great phone Nokia N9.

SailFish and the Mer project are continuation of the former, but if you
don't have working OS , you don't have customers. If you don't have
customers, you don't have working OS. I had to import one (Intex AquaFish)
from India and it is indeed a very good phone.

I read few days ago a pre order for a tablet with SailFish OS for about
220,- US$

https://together.jolla.com/question/136143/wiki-available-devices-running-sailfish-os/?answer=163705#post-id-163705

They are also working on porting SailFish OS to Sony Xperia X and it will be
released in the close future. And there are the community ports, which are
missing Dalvik (Android emulator), so you can't use android apps.

So if you are looking for phone or tablet with alternative OS (which is
actually working - not like Firefox or Ubuntu phone or whatever that never
worked or was extremely unfriendly), you better look in this direction.

We can just hope that things will change for good in the future and the
monopoly of the spying OS's will be broken, but again the masses must be
educated, because they are major player.

regards

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#183416

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> UTC Time: July 8, 2017 7:50 AM
> From: joe@jretrading.com
> On Sat, 08 Jul 2017 09:06:51 +0200
> deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am following the work of Jolla (SailFish OS) and their community
>> ports, but honestly without (Android) apps .... what do you use this
>> device for? I think Ubuntu has also project targeting mobile devices.
> I think that the Holy Grail for many people is a genuinely pocket-sized
> computer with Internet, GPS, etc., running a real, general-purpose
> operating system, not a marketing medium. I have an Acer One netbook,
> which is nearly what I want except for the size. But then, I do like a
> real keyboard, that doesn"t disappear just as a web form is about to
> time out...

On a previous question of why I hate such devices I think Joe has
answered for me in most counts. I really believe they were designed
from scratch to monitor every minute of anyone's life. Just in case
at any point in the future some authority may want to back track the
live profile of a certain state or corporate enemy. Which is understandable
for industry to be exchanging favors and gifts, as this is the nature of
the modern reverse welfare state.

> There may also be the hope that with a proper OS, they will control the
> device instead of just about anyone on the planet who wants to track
> the owner, collect his data or listen in. That"s probably not a
> realistic goal.

There is a small percentage of conscious resistors.

> The manufacturers of tablets and smartphones are almost certainly under
> some pressure to make it as difficult as possible to run an alternative
> OS, in addition to the commercial pressure, of course. It"s quite
> noticeable that the last couple of versions of Windows have tried quite
> hard to discourage people from using non-Microsoft-approved
> applications, and to make it appear that an account with Microsoft is
> essential in order to even use the computer. That"s the direction we"re
> heading in, not the other way.

The latest interpretation of the bill of rights states that: you have the right
to free speech as long as we know who is exercising the right and where
we may find him/her in case we need to extract information at homeland.s
basement, somewhere in nowhereland.

> --
> Joe

There have been leaks by android hardware engineers that there is so
many backdoors engineered within these systems that it is virtually
impossible to ever make it secure (orbot developers have admitted to
this but not given up entirely). The goal of a portable pocket
size open architecture open source system seems to be possible but
it comes with a cost. Just a display for one of those Berkeley open
boards costs as much as a late model android tablet. Getting up to
i-phone cost with something that will end up being 4 times as big and
heavy is a sport for the affluent.
For scientific field work android seems very poor, while in idiotic
gadgets and games they are unbelievably wealthy. So even a
jailed vm of debian being able to run apps on the run maybe just
what it may be good for. The only reason it ended up in my hands
is that someone was really fed up with stalled applications after
a year that the 4core system with 1/2Meg Ram had 0 value.
Great battery still. This is a lollypop and I also have a previous
model with a dead sealed wired battery and 1M ram. So I could
possibly end up with a good one. Soldering explosives is my
second hobby to hacking this device which I am better at :)
Back to gnuroot debian, I managed to get lxde to run and upgraded
to buster, not broken yet. This was done with xserver xsdl which is
a ton more realistic than xsdl's app called debian with xfce.
If you play around with mouse/touch conf it ends up acting almost
as a real touch screen. This all depends to your tolerance to frisbie
throwing gadgets.
Can you hack/pen test your device from inwards attacking its ip?
Anyway, it is a learning experience.

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#183428

Fungi4All wrote:

> On a previous question of why I hate such devices I think Joe has
> answered for me in most counts. I really believe they were designed
> from scratch to monitor every minute of anyone's life. Just in case
> at any point in the future some authority may want to back track the
> live profile of a certain state or corporate enemy. Which is
> understandable for industry to be exchanging favors and gifts, as this is
> the nature of the modern reverse welfare state.
> 

The hardware can not track your activities - it is the software

> 
> The latest interpretation of the bill of rights states that: you have the
> right to free speech as long as we know who is exercising the right and
> where we may find him/her in case we need to extract information at
> homeland.s basement, somewhere in nowhereland.

Haha - this is a good one - I am just wondering when americans will raise
up - you need a change over there - big change

> 
> There have been leaks by android hardware engineers that there is so
> many backdoors engineered within these systems that it is virtually
> impossible to ever make it secure (orbot developers have admitted to
> this but not given up entirely). The goal of a portable pocket
> size open architecture open source system seems to be possible but
> it comes with a cost. Just a display for one of those Berkeley open
> boards costs as much as a late model android tablet. Getting up to
> i-phone cost with something that will end up being 4 times as big and
> heavy is a sport for the affluent.

Again mixing up hardware with software - the software is android - not the
hardware

> For scientific field work android seems very poor, while in idiotic
> gadgets and games they are unbelievably wealthy. So even a
> jailed vm of debian being able to run apps on the run maybe just
> what it may be good for. The only reason it ended up in my hands
> is that someone was really fed up with stalled applications after
> a year that the 4core system with 1/2Meg Ram had 0 value.

hehe - android can not execute processes in parallel 

> Great battery still. This is a lollypop and I also have a previous
> model with a dead sealed wired battery and 1M ram. So I could
> possibly end up with a good one. Soldering explosives is my
> second hobby to hacking this device which I am better at :)
> Back to gnuroot debian, I managed to get lxde to run and upgraded
> to buster, not broken yet. This was done with xserver xsdl which is
> a ton more realistic than xsdl's app called debian with xfce.
> If you play around with mouse/touch conf it ends up acting almost
> as a real touch screen. This all depends to your tolerance to frisbie
> throwing gadgets.
> Can you hack/pen test your device from inwards attacking its ip?
> Anyway, it is a learning experience.

I think you have to buy Nokia N9 or newer SailFish OS device ;-)

regards

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#183431

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> From: deloptes@gmail.com
> Fungi4All wrote:
>> On a previous question of why I hate such devices I think Joe has
>> answered for me in most counts. I really believe they were designed
>> from scratch to monitor every minute of anyone"s life. Just in case
>> at any point in the future some authority may want to back track the
>> live profile of a certain state or corporate enemy. Which is
>> understandable for industry to be exchanging favors and gifts, as this is
>> the nature of the modern reverse welfare state.
> The hardware can not track your activities - it is the software

I know that, but it can include capabilities for specific sw to take advantage of.

>> The latest interpretation of the bill of rights states that: you have the
>> right to free speech as long as we know who is exercising the right and
>> where we may find him/her in case we need to extract information at
>> homeland.s basement, somewhere in nowhereland.
> Haha - this is a good one - I am just wondering when americans will raise
> up - you need a change over there - big change

Don't laugh so hard, your reality is not that far off no matter where you are.

>> There have been leaks by android hardware engineers that there is so
>> many backdoors engineered within these systems that it is virtually
>> impossible to ever make it secure (orbot developers have admitted to
>> this but not given up entirely). The goal of a portable pocket
>> size open architecture open source system seems to be possible but
>> it comes with a cost. Just a display for one of those Berkeley open
>> boards costs as much as a late model android tablet. Getting up to
>> i-phone cost with something that will end up being 4 times as big and
>> heavy is a sport for the affluent.
> Again mixing up hardware with software - the software is android - not the
> hardware

No, but it is designed specifically for android use. Whether something else
will also run or not is irrelevant. Whether whatever else will know to take
advantage of its capabilities in full or not is. Whether a door is opened
in networking to have external software exploit its hidden capabilities is.
All you can do is study the packets in/out.

>> For scientific field work android seems very poor, while in idiotic
>> gadgets and games they are unbelievably wealthy. So even a
>> jailed vm of debian being able to run apps on the run maybe just
>> what it may be good for. The only reason it ended up in my hands
>> is that someone was really fed up with stalled applications after
>> a year that the 4core system with 1/2Meg Ram had 0 value.
> hehe - android can not execute processes in parallel

It is a clone of some unix. It had the capability and lost it. As far as we know.
Can we know?

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#183443

Fungi4All wrote:

>> The hardware can not track your activities - it is the software
> 
> I know that, but it can include capabilities for specific sw to take
> advantage of.
> 

To what extent it is different from your PC, which also can include those
capabilities.

>>> The latest interpretation of the bill of rights states that: you have
>>> the right to free speech as long as we know who is exercising the right
>>> and where we may find him/her in case we need to extract information at
>>> homeland.s basement, somewhere in nowhereland.
>> Haha - this is a good one - I am just wondering when americans will raise
>> up - you need a change over there - big change
> 
> Don't laugh so hard, your reality is not that far off no matter where you
> are.
> 

No but at least I am aware of it :)

>>> There have been leaks by android hardware engineers that there is so
>>> many backdoors engineered within these systems that it is virtually
>>> impossible to ever make it secure (orbot developers have admitted to
>>> this but not given up entirely). The goal of a portable pocket
>>> size open architecture open source system seems to be possible but
>>> it comes with a cost. Just a display for one of those Berkeley open
>>> boards costs as much as a late model android tablet. Getting up to
>>> i-phone cost with something that will end up being 4 times as big and
>>> heavy is a sport for the affluent.
>> Again mixing up hardware with software - the software is android - not
>> the hardware
> 
> No, but it is designed specifically for android use. Whether something
> else will also run or not is irrelevant. Whether whatever else will know
> to take advantage of its capabilities in full or not is. Whether a door is
> opened in networking to have external software exploit its hidden
> capabilities is. All you can do is study the packets in/out.
> 

This is incorrect. It is not designed for specific OS, rather the OEM works
close with the OS developer and shares information about the device, so the
OS developer does not have to guess. IT is also the OS that keeps the doors
open and not the hardware - you need to shift your view.

>>> For scientific field work android seems very poor, while in idiotic
>>> gadgets and games they are unbelievably wealthy. So even a
>>> jailed vm of debian being able to run apps on the run maybe just
>>> what it may be good for. The only reason it ended up in my hands
>>> is that someone was really fed up with stalled applications after
>>> a year that the 4core system with 1/2Meg Ram had 0 value.
>> hehe - android can not execute processes in parallel
> 
> It is a clone of some unix. It had the capability and lost it. As far as
> we know. Can we know?

It is sh*t OS, this is what it is.

regards

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#183445

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> From: deloptes@gmail.com
> Fungi4All wrote:
>>> The hardware can not track your activities - it is the software
>>
>> I know that, but it can include capabilities for specific sw to take
>> advantage of.
>>
> To what extent it is different from your PC, which also can include those
> capabilities.

Just blind metaphysical faith that within the linux superfamily there would
be enough whistle blowers of the secrets shared with hw engineers that
it would become public knowledge. But, to support your statement, I got
a chill and cold sweat reading some of the publicized specs from Intel/Amd
processors. I mean the advertised capabilities :)

>>> Haha - this is a good one - I am just wondering when americans will raise
>>> up - you need a change over there - big change
>>
>> Don"t laugh so hard, your reality is not that far off no matter where you
>> are.
>>
> No but at least I am aware of it :)

10-4, the vast majority have chosen the facebook pill, brain numb by choice.
So, why blame poor innocent americans when no-one is better?

>> No, but it is designed specifically for android use. Whether something
>> else will also run or not is irrelevant. Whether whatever else will know
>> to take advantage of its capabilities in full or not is. Whether a door is
>> opened in networking to have external software exploit its hidden
>> capabilities is. All you can do is study the packets in/out.
> This is incorrect. It is not designed for specific OS, rather the OEM works
> close with the OS developer and shares information about the device, so the
> OS developer does not have to guess. IT is also the OS that keeps the doors
> open and not the hardware - you need to shift your view.

Well, I may not be fully capabable of understanding the details, but isn't there
some form of "soft"ware within its subsystem of hardware? What a chip will
respond to a circuit trigger is based on internal code of communication. I think
the key is in providing IDs of stuff, of writing, storing, and responding IDs.
The rest can be compiled externally. If among a crowd I ask for a doctor
and you say I MedLicense#939827164950 am a doctor I get suspicious!

>>>> For scientific field work android seems very poor, while in idiotic
>>>> gadgets and games they are unbelievably wealthy. So even a
>>>> jailed vm of debian being able to run apps on the run maybe just
>>>> what it may be good for. The only reason it ended up in my hands
>>>> is that someone was really fed up with stalled applications after
>>>> a year that the 4core system with 1/2Meg Ram had 0 value.
>>> hehe - android can not execute processes in parallel
>>
>> It is a clone of some unix. It had the capability and lost it. As far as
>> we know. Can we know?
> It is sh*t OS, this is what it is.

After meshing around a bit more with this pseudo debian environment
I am convinced that it is not worth my time and effort to deal with this.
I am taping it on top of my guitar amp to play mp3s as backing/practice
tracks and I think that it is the best it is good for.

> regards

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#183460

Fungi4All wrote:

> After meshing around a bit more with this pseudo debian environment
> I am convinced that it is not worth my time and effort to deal with this.
> I am taping it on top of my guitar amp to play mp3s as backing/practice
> tracks and I think that it is the best it is good for

I've gone the way already (at least in theory). This is why I advise, if you
want a device like tablet or phone to be fully in your control, then go for
Jolla/Sailfish.. At the moment there is no alternative in my opinion.

As for some conspiracy chips with embedded rom .... if you have basic
engineering knowledge you could easily identify all of it and to my
knowledge it is not trivial to embed such a chip into a mass product,
especially a mobile phone.

There were servers in the past, where NSA plugged in special chips before
those machines were shipped to china, but it did not last long and the
chineese found out.

So keep your eyes open and think twice before you buy something and use it -
this is my advise

regards

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#183462

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On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 05:00:26PM +0200, deloptes wrote:

[...]

> As for some conspiracy chips with embedded rom .... if you have basic
> engineering knowledge you could easily identify all of it and to my
> knowledge it is not trivial to embed such a chip into a mass product,
> especially a mobile phone.

If you want some fascinating reading, see [1] [2]: a researcher from
Google's Zero Day project found out bugs in the firmware of a widespread
Broadcomm SoC (used in many well-known smartphones). Specifically some
buffer overflows in the WiFi subsystem (a processor on its own, with
its own firmware, but sharing the main processor's RAM, it seems).

He could produce a proof-of-concept exploit in which prepared WiFi
packets could first take over the WiFi processor, then from there the
main processor. No user interaction needed: just the WiFi has to be
listening.

No need for the bad guys to shoehorn a spy processor on your machine.
There are enough already in there (Intel's ME, disk controllers, what
not) with enough vulnerabilities ready to do the NSA's bidding (or FSB,
or whoever is your favourite enemy these days).

Cheers, indeed :-)

[1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2017/04/over-air-exploiting-broadcoms-wi-fi_4.html
[2] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.de/2017/04/over-air-exploiting-broadcoms-wi-fi_11.html
- -- t
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qcQAn0LeCfpNuRNsAiBW2JckR/i6bws/
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#183472

tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> No need for the bad guys to shoehorn a spy processor on your machine.
> There are enough already in there (Intel's ME, disk controllers, what
> not) with enough vulnerabilities ready to do the NSA's bidding (or FSB,
> or whoever is your favourite enemy these days).

but it says there it is exploit - so was this intentionally placed there or
not?

we all know the best way to secure data is to work offline

regards

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#183474

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On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 10:46:34PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > No need for the bad guys to shoehorn a spy processor on your machine.

[...]

> but it says there it is exploit - so was this intentionally placed there or
> not?

Most probably it is unintentional [1], but in the end: does it matter?
A state-level actor (or equivalent) just has the resources to find
those exploits first. Why go to the length of planting any, since
there is such a rich "natural" source to harvest from? Given recent
events (e.g. WannaCry and its spawn), this seems to be the preferred
modus operandi these days.

> we all know the best way to secure data is to work offline

That would be defaetism :-)

Cheers, anyway

[1] My hazy memory tells me that, æons ago, there was a mysterious
patch to the linux kernel (might well be before the Git era) which
contained a subtle bug. Nobody found out whether that was intentional
or not. Go figure.

- -- tomás
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#183488

tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Most probably it is unintentional [1], but in the end: does it matter?
> A state-level actor (or equivalent) just has the resources to find
> those exploits first. Why go to the length of planting any, since
> there is such a rich "natural" source to harvest from? Given recent
> events (e.g. WannaCry and its spawn), this seems to be the preferred
> modus operandi these days.

But this is also valid for Linux and the free software around it - there
were numerous examples in the past.

regards

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#183481

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:00 AM, deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> As for some conspiracy chips with embedded rom .... if you have basic
> engineering knowledge you could easily identify all of it and to my
> knowledge it is not trivial to embed such a chip into a mass product,
> especially a mobile phone.

Have you read Ken Thompson's On Trusting Trust?

If it is true of software, it is true of hardware.

> There were servers in the past, where NSA plugged in special chips before
> those machines were shipped to china, but it did not last long and the
> chineese found out.

Either that was in the days when the NSA didn't really have a lot of skilled
engineers, or they wanted the special chips to be found.

I'd tend to guess at the latter, because I know how easy it would be to
bundle a custom soc with an extra processor and private memory with
any standard bit of circuit, package it in a standard-looking package,
and label it with the name and package numbering of any company
of choice. This has been easy for a long time.

> So keep your eyes open and think twice before you buy something and use it
-
> this is my advise

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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