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  debian wiki Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-08 22:20 +0200
    Re: debian wiki davidson@freevolt.org - 2017-07-09 01:00 +0200
    Re: debian wiki Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2017-07-09 02:20 +0200
      Re: debian wiki <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-09 11:40 +0200
        Re: debian wiki Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-09 17:00 +0200
          Re: debian wiki <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-09 17:40 +0200
            Re: debian wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-09 20:20 +0200
              Re: debian wiki <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-09 22:20 +0200
            Re: debian wiki Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2017-07-10 15:40 +0200
              Re: debian wiki David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-07-10 16:00 +0200
                Re: debian wiki <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-10 16:40 +0200
                  Re: debian wiki Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-07-10 18:50 +0200

#183417 — debian wiki

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I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the language of
the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is nowhere used on
this pc. But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse the choice? Even though
I choose english the drop boxes and menus are an another language based
on IP. This makes life hard for traveling users.

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#183423

On Sat, 8 Jul 2017, Fungi4All wrote:

> I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the
> language of the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is
> nowhere used on this pc. But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse
> the choice? Even though I choose english the drop boxes and menus
> are an another language based on IP. This makes life hard for
> traveling users.

I suspect this concern of yours could be more fruitfully discussed on
the debian-www mailing list:

   https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/

| Web pages design and maintenance
|
|    Design, structure and translation of Debian web pages. All
|    important changes to the web site are announced here as well.
|
|    This list is not moderated; posting is allowed by anyone.
|
|    Posting address: debian-www@lists.debian.org

-- 
Twitter is a police interview that never ends. Facebook has all your
friends wearing a wire. Youtube has you in the dock talking to the
judge.
%% https://wikileaks.org/Assange-statement-on-the.html

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#183427

On 8 de julho de 2017 17:16, Fungi4All wrote:
> I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the language of
> the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is nowhere used on
> this pc.  But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse the choice?  Even though
> I choose english the drop boxes and menus are an another language based
> on IP.  This makes life hard for traveling users.

It's probably based not on your IP, but on headers sent by your browser (Accept-Language or something like that). There should be somewhere in the settings where you can change that. At least on Firefox there is. 

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#183434

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On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:18:25PM -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On 8 de julho de 2017 17:16, Fungi4All wrote:
> > I thought only sites for idiots like gloogloo pick on their own the language of
> > the menus based on locale/ip even though the language is nowhere used on
> > this pc.  But debian-wiki will pick and not reverse the choice?  Even though
> > I choose english the drop boxes and menus are an another language based
> > on IP.  This makes life hard for traveling users.
> 
> It's probably based not on your IP, but on headers sent by your browser
> (Accept-Language or something like that). There should be somewhere in
> the settings where you can change that. At least on Firefox there is. 

I can confirm that (tested on https://wiki.debian.org). Depending on
the language preferences set on my browser (en resp. fr), I stay on
the default, English or get redirected to the French version, /fr/.

So I don't see any IP based language choice on wiki.debian.org, just
one based on HTTP content negotiation (and thus on client choice), as
it Should Be (TM).

DISCLAIMER: I only tested without Javascript. I (mostly) browse with
Javascript disabled.

@Fungi4All: if you are interested in constructive discussions and not
just in ranting off, please describe what you are seeing, at least
with an URL for people to try to reproduce what you are seeing.

Regards
- -- tomás
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#183459

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> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
>> It"s probably based not on your IP, but on headers sent by your browser
>> (Accept-Language or something like that). There should be somewhere in
>> the settings where you can change that. At least on Firefox there is.
> I can confirm that (tested on https://wiki.debian.org). Depending on
> the language preferences set on my browser (en resp. fr), I stay on
> the default, English or get redirected to the French version, /fr/.

It is not consistent though, with scripts-off if you pick french from the main
page the content will become french but the top menus stay EN. If you
pick a link (installation rapide) the headers stay in EN. If you try the same
with DE then all of it is German. This is with a French IP. So it is not the IP
but some language cookie that throws it off? I guess if you use a lesser
browser than mozilla weird things happen, I accept that the IP speculation
was unsubstantiated.
But the inconsistency remains.

> So I don"t see any IP based language choice on wiki.debian.org, just
> one based on HTTP content negotiation (and thus on client choice), as
> it Should Be (TM).

> DISCLAIMER: I only tested without Javascript. I (mostly) browse with
> Javascript disabled.
> @Fungi4All: if you are interested in constructive discussions and not
> just in ranting off, please describe what you are seeing, at least
> with an URL for people to try to reproduce what you are seeing.

I thought I did, wiki.debian.org but here is a specific one https://wiki.debian.org/fr/QuickInstall
Is the top menu in English or French. On my instance the content was english but the menus were not

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#183461

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On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 10:55:06AM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
> > From: tomas@tuxteam.de

[...]

> > @Fungi4All: if you are interested in constructive discussions and not
> > just in ranting off, please describe what you are seeing, at least
> > with an URL for people to try to reproduce what you are seeing.

Hm. Was a bit confrontative, sorry for that.

> I thought I did, wiki.debian.org but here is a specific one https://wiki.debian.org/fr/QuickInstall
> Is the top menu in English or French. On my instance the content was english but the menus were not

Hm. There seem to be two levels:

 - the wiki URL: if I choose https://wiki.debian.org/fr/QuickInstall
   and my (browser) language preference is set to English, I get the
   French wiki content with an English top menu.

 - the lang preference: if I set my (browser) language preference
   to french, I can aim directly at https://wiki.debian.org/QuickInstall
   and get the French wiki content and a French top menu.

So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.

Does this correspond with your findings?

Perhaps that's something to communicate to the debian-www administrators,
as detailed in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#content-admins
or in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#wiki-sys-admins, not
sure which (I'd try content-admins first).

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#183466

On Sun 09 Jul 2017 at 17:32:29 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Perhaps that's something to communicate to the debian-www administrators,
> as detailed in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#content-admins
> or in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#wiki-sys-admins, not
> sure which (I'd try content-admins first).

https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2017/07/msg00019.html

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#183469

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On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 07:19:24PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 09 Jul 2017 at 17:32:29 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps that's something to communicate to the debian-www administrators,
> > as detailed in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#content-admins
> > or in https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWiki/Contact#wiki-sys-admins, not
> > sure which (I'd try content-admins first).
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2017/07/msg00019.html

Thanks, that clears the IP thing (we came to the same conclusion here),
the inconsistency in the top menu (browser  language setting vs. URL)
still remains.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#183517

On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
> So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
> the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
> intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
>
> Does this correspond with your findings?

That's also what happens here.

-- 
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br

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#183519

On Mon 10 Jul 2017 at 13:32:00 (+0000), Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
> >So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
> >the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
> >intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
> >
> >Does this correspond with your findings?
> 
> That's also what happens here.

… which is as I would expect it.

However, I'm only _guessing_ that these pages are active in some way,
and that that activity generates the menus at the top. If so, then the
language to use for that activity is English, as set in preferences.
One would also expect the activity itself (rather than the language
it is expressed in) to be the same in all the languages supported.

The contents of the page in each language might be quite different.
The translators might modify cultural and language references in ways
that they feel are appropriate for their readers. Those sorts of
differences wouldn't be expected in the menu generation.

I haven't seen an actual problem expressed by anyone about what is
displayed. Is there one, other than a casual observation?

Cheers,
David.

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#183526

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On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 08:57:35AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 10 Jul 2017 at 13:32:00 (+0000), Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> > On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
> > >So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
> > >the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
> > >intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
> > >
> > >Does this correspond with your findings?
> > 
> > That's also what happens here.
> 
> … which is as I would expect it.
> 
> However, I'm only _guessing_ that these pages are active in some way,

You mean... server-side active, I guess.

[...]

> I haven't seen an actual problem expressed by anyone about what is
> displayed. Is there one, other than a casual observation?

Not a real problem. Just a behaviour that confused the original
poster (I think it was Fungi4All): if  your browser lang is "X"
and you click on the page's link for lang "Y" and you get a top
menu in "Xish" and a content in "Yish". The link provided by (was
it Brian?) in this thread seems to indicate that this confusion
happens more than once.

For people who don't know the browser has a language preferences
setting (and perhaps have no idea about all that HTTP content
negotiation stuff), that might be a bit... surprising, leading
some to guess that there is an IP-based shenanigan behind the
scenes.

The confused are hardly to be blamed, given the tendency of
late to keep users as stupid as possible :-/

Regards
- -- tomás
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#183534

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> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
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> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 08:57:35AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>> On Mon 10 Jul 2017 at 13:32:00 (+0000), Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
>> > On Dom, 09 Jul 2017, tomas wrote:
>> > >So I think the top menu only reacts to the preferred language set in
>> > >the browser. The wiki content itself obeys both the URL (i.e. the
>> > >intercalated /fr/ element) and to the browser preference.
>> > >
>> > >Does this correspond with your findings?
>> >
>> > That"s also what happens here.
>>
>> … which is as I would expect it.
>>
>> However, I"m only _guessing_ that these pages are active in some way,
> You mean... server-side active, I guess.
> [...]
>> I haven"t seen an actual problem expressed by anyone about what is
>> displayed. Is there one, other than a casual observation?
> Not a real problem. Just a behaviour that confused the original
> poster (I think it was Fungi4All): if your browser lang is "X"
> and you click on the page"s link for lang "Y" and you get a top
> menu in "Xish" and a content in "Yish". The link provided by (was
> it Brian?) in this thread seems to indicate that this confusion
> happens more than once.
> For people who don"t know the browser has a language preferences
> setting (and perhaps have no idea about all that HTTP content
> negotiation stuff), that might be a bit... surprising, leading
> some to guess that there is an IP-based shenanigan behind the
> scenes.
> The confused are hardly to be blamed, given the tendency of
> late to keep users as stupid as possible :-/
> Regards
> - -- tomás

I, the OP, have no abilities in German of French, nor do I have these
languages in my browser. I noticed that the wiki, while it was displaying
the default Englsh text, the menus were on a 4th language. Upon the
suggestion to disable scripts, I used my trusty secure browser with a French IP
and tried. When I selected French just for testing, the menus remained
English. When I selected German it was all German, to me. The more
languages you select the funkier and more inconsistent the results were.
In some languages you may click a link and revert back to English, possibly
because of the page being in another english default server.
No matter what is at fault the wiki server results are inconsistent.

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