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Replace systemd

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  Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-03 22:40 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:10 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:30 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Jason Wittlin-Cohen <jwittlincohen@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 02:30 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-07-04 07:00 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 20:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 00:30 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 01:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-07-05 03:00 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 14:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:30 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2017-07-05 10:00 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 10:30 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 17:40 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Jim Ohlstein <jim@mailman-hosting.com> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 07:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com> - 2017-07-05 16:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 16:40 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 23:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:00 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd chris <tknchris@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 00:00 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:30 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 06:30 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-03 23:10 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 15:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 16:10 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
                  Re: Re: Replace systemd Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-07-07 05:40 +0200
                    Re: Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:00 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:10 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 07:10 +0200
    Re: Replace systemd Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-07-03 23:40 +0200
      Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-05 01:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:40 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:50 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 12:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 22:20 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 00:50 +0200
                      Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-07 16:10 +0200
                        Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 18:10 +0200
                          Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
                            Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 23:40 +0200
                        Re: Replace systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:30 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
        Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 17:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-05 18:40 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-05 19:10 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 05:20 +0200
                Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:20 +0200
                  Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:00 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-06 14:30 +0200
                      Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-06 16:20 +0200
                    Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 15:40 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 11:40 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 05:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 07:10 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2017-07-06 08:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 10:30 +0200
              Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
            And the UNasked questions are? - was [Re: Replace systemd] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-07-06 11:50 +0200
          Re: Replace systemd Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-07-09 13:50 +0200
            Re: Replace systemd "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-07-09 15:30 +0200

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#183304

Le 07/06/17 à 13:48, Reco a écrit :
> 	Hi.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:53:29PM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
>> Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
>>>
>>> You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained here:
>>>
>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
>>>
>>> If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian without
>>> systemd, I do not have personal experience with those, but I'm sure that
>>> you will get few hints.
>>>
>> init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and how
>> they are treated, I do not trust any part of it.
>> Neither resolved, logind, etc...
> 
> So you do not trust udev as well?
> 
> 
>> Too many critical bugs found in them and treated by the upstream
>> developpers with only contempt for the people reporting them
>> (see https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237#issuecomment-312458445)
> 
> By that logic (in)famous libc bug 4980 shoud've stopped by from using
> any sane Linux distribution 10 years ago. Did it?
>
Most important is not the presence of bugs. It is the way people in
charge deal with them.

> 
>> This behaviour on a critical component is mere madness.
> 
> OpenBSD folks beg to differ.
> 
> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=149902196520920&w=2

They were mocking systemd, not adopting the behaviour...

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#183312

	Hi.


On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 15:27:04 +0200
Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> wrote:

> Le 07/06/17 à 13:48, Reco a écrit :
> > 	Hi.
> > 
> > On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 12:53:29PM +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> >> Le 07/03/17 à 22:48, Dejan Jocic a écrit :
> >>>
> >>> You can still use Debian without systemd as init. Explained here:
> >>>
> >>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/05/msg00538.html
> >>>
> >>> If you would prefer that it is some derivate/fork of Debian without
> >>> systemd, I do not have personal experience with those, but I'm sure that
> >>> you will get few hints.
> >>>
> >> init is a small part of systemd. And judging y the bug reported and how
> >> they are treated, I do not trust any part of it.
> >> Neither resolved, logind, etc...
> > 
> > So you do not trust udev as well?
> > 
> > 
> >> Too many critical bugs found in them and treated by the upstream
> >> developpers with only contempt for the people reporting them
> >> (see https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237#issuecomment-312458445)
> > 
> > By that logic (in)famous libc bug 4980 shoud've stopped by from using
> > any sane Linux distribution 10 years ago. Did it?
> >
> Most important is not the presence of bugs. It is the way people in
> charge deal with them.

My point exactly. #4980 is the reason they call Ulrich Drepper 'Stop
Reopening'. But also, #4980 was fixed.
Just the same as #6237 will be fixed in a sane way. At least that's the
fine folks on oss-security are promising right now.


> > 
> >> This behaviour on a critical component is mere madness.
> > 
> > OpenBSD folks beg to differ.
> > 
> > https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=149902196520920&w=2
> 
> They were mocking systemd, not adopting the behaviour...

Rly? But why? That's legitimate patch aimed on improving compatibility
and interoperability. I certainly expect this patch to land in sudo
upstream.

Reco

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#183323

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> wrote:
>   [...]
>> >
>> >> This behaviour on a critical component is mere madness.
>> >
>> > OpenBSD folks beg to differ.
>> >
>> > https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=149902196520920&w=2
>>
>> They were mocking systemd, not adopting the behaviour...
>
> Rly? But why? That's legitimate patch aimed on improving compatibility
> and interoperability. I certainly expect this patch to land in sudo
> upstream.

You can hurt yourself cherry picking from the openbsd lists.

If you want to know whether Ted was serious, the best approach is to
watch the source tree:

http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/doas/

Check the date on the message, and, BTW, read the whole thread,
while you're at it, if you haven't. Ask yourself why the debate fizzled.

Check the date again, check who owns doas, check the last change
to the source tree.

What is missing?

-- 
Joel Rees

One of these days I'll get someone to pay me
to design a language that combines the best of Forth and C.
Then I'll be able to leap wide instruction sets with a single #ifdef,
run faster than a speeding infinite loop with a #define,
and stop all integer size bugs with my bare cast.
http://defining-computers.blogspot.com/2017/06/reinventing-computers.html

More of my delusions:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2017/05/do-not-pay-modern-danegeld-ransomware.html
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html

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#183057

On 03/07/17 20:42, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote:
> Is there a pure Debian alternative?

There is an alternative init daemon, in the form of sysvinit (install 
the package "sysvinit-core" to use this as your init daemon), and there 
are several solutions for service management.

(I might humbly suggest, in passing, that your choice of Subject: header 
is unnecessarily inflammatory and the interrogative "How do I replace 
systemd?" would have been much better than the imperative "Replace 
systemd" :)

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#183152

On July 3, 2017 1:44:30 PM PDT, Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>On 03/07/17 20:42, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote:
>> Is there a pure Debian alternative?
>
>There is an alternative init daemon, in the form of sysvinit (install 
>the package "sysvinit-core" to use this as your init daemon), and there
>are several solutions for service management.
>

It would be nice to have an install-time option for selecting the desired init.
-- 
David Griffith
dave@661.org

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#183162

On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 15:35:10 -0700 David Griffith <dave@661.org> wrote:

> On July 3, 2017 1:44:30 PM PDT, Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >On 03/07/17 20:42, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote:
> >> Is there a pure Debian alternative?
> >
> >There is an alternative init daemon, in the form of sysvinit
> >(install the package "sysvinit-core" to use this as your init
> >daemon), and there are several solutions for service management.
> >
> 
> It would be nice to have an install-time option for selecting the
> desired init.

I suggested that a few months ago.  Thread lasted a couple weeks.  Lots
of Pro and Con with a few "Too Hard to Do" or "Impossible to Do."

At least, the Debian developers listened and with Stretch gave us the
option to easily switch to either of two other inits without breaking
anything.

B

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#183193

On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 07:15:48PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>I suggested that a few months ago.  Thread lasted a couple weeks.  Lots
>of Pro and Con with a few "Too Hard to Do" or "Impossible to Do."

Also several posts of "this is already possible via /this/ method..."
which seems to have been ignored. Perhaps David will find those messages in the 
archives.


-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#183250

On Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:57:20 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>
wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 07:15:48PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >I suggested that a few months ago.  Thread lasted a couple weeks.
> >Lots of Pro and Con with a few "Too Hard to Do" or "Impossible to
> >Do."
> 
> Also several posts of "this is already possible via /this/ method..."
> which seems to have been ignored. Perhaps David will find those
> messages in the archives.

If you're referring to "preseed" or "debootstrap" scenerios, those are
more "work-arounds" than a choice from within the installer -- What
my original query was about.  While they work, so does the other option
of switching inits after the system install is complete.  The latter, I
think, is less problematical.  No matter ...

Systemd through dependencies as well as critical system files (udev,
udisks2, policykit1, etc.) is very entrenched in Debian as well as the
dozen or so other Linux distros that use it.  It is here to stay.  So,
instead of trying to rid Stretch of it, I've decided to just treat it
like any other dependency as long as I can still choose the init system
I prefer and it works as it should.  So far, it does.  Both with
sysvinit and runit.

FWIW, I discovered in Stretch when I switched from systemd-init to
sysvinit, I recovered about 6 to 7 MB of RAM on reboot.  Ditto with
runit-init.

B

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#183282

On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 04:32:17PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>If you're referring to "preseed" or "debootstrap" scenerios, those are
>more "work-arounds" than a choice from within the installer -- What
>my original query was about.  While they work, so does the other option
>of switching inits after the system install is complete.  The latter, I
>think, is less problematical.  No matter ...

No, I was referring to the expert mode option where you get to select the
exact packages you want. But yes, the preseeding and debootstrap options
are there too, you are right.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#183313

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 10:57:55 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 04:32:17PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >If you're referring to "preseed" or "debootstrap" scenerios, those
> >are more "work-arounds" than a choice from within the installer --
> >What my original query was about.  While they work, so does the
> >other option of switching inits after the system install is
> >complete.  The latter, I think, is less problematical.  No matter ...
> 
> No, I was referring to the expert mode option where you get to select
> the exact packages you want. But yes, the preseeding and debootstrap
> options are there too, you are right.

Even in Expert Mode, there's no choice to install an alternate init.
And with systemd being a major system dependency in Debian, it's always
going to be around regardless of which init you migrate to. 

B

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#183317

On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 09:02:24AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>Even in Expert Mode, there's no choice to install an alternate init.
>And with systemd being a major system dependency in Debian, it's always
>going to be around regardless of which init you migrate to.

I believe expert mode offers you a choice to select packages manually,
at which point you can select the init of your choice. But tell you
what, I'll actually try this Tomorrow to ensure that it is still the
case.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#183319

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 20:55:48 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 09:02:24AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >Even in Expert Mode, there's no choice to install an alternate init.
> >And with systemd being a major system dependency in Debian, it's
> >always going to be around regardless of which init you migrate to.
> 
> I believe expert mode offers you a choice to select packages manually,
> at which point you can select the init of your choice. But tell you
> what, I'll actually try this Tomorrow to ensure that it is still the
> case.

I would be interested if there were.  I've never seen such an option
previously.

When I did my test evaluation installs of Stretch RC3 a few weeks ago, I
used the LXDE install disk since LXDE uses Openbox as its window
manager, the one I prefer, to save time instead of messing with the
Expert Mode, which I normally use.

I'm about to do a final test install in VirtualBox before doing it for
real, but it won't be tomorrow.  Maybe in a week.

Let the list know what you discover.

Thanks

B

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#183337

On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 03:31:18PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>I would be interested if there were.  I've never seen such an option
...
>Let the list know what you discover.

I'm surprised to report that the option do manually select software is
no longer there. As I recall, it was essentially invoking aptitude
within d-i, either after or instead of the normal task selection stage.
I've just gone through an expert mode install with stretch netinst and
that option is no longer available.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#183343

On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:53:09 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 03:31:18PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >I would be interested if there were.  I've never seen such an option
> ...
> >Let the list know what you discover.
> 
> I'm surprised to report that the option do manually select software is
> no longer there. As I recall, it was essentially invoking aptitude
> within d-i, either after or instead of the normal task selection
> stage. I've just gone through an expert mode install with stretch
> netinst and that option is no longer available.

The consequences of "progress."

Well, at least, there's still a "base" install option, and build up
from there. What I did when I upgraded from Fedora 12 (running about 6
months past EOL) to Wheezy five years ago.

Thanks for the heads up.

B

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#183349

On Fri 07 Jul 2017 at 08:50:37 -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:53:09 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 03:31:18PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > >I would be interested if there were.  I've never seen such an option
> > ...
> > >Let the list know what you discover.
> > 
> > I'm surprised to report that the option do manually select software is
> > no longer there. As I recall, it was essentially invoking aptitude
> > within d-i, either after or instead of the normal task selection
> > stage. I've just gone through an expert mode install with stretch
> > netinst and that option is no longer available.
> 
> The consequences of "progress."

How does progress proceed from something which never existed?

-- 
Brian. 

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#183362

On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 20:01:15 +0100 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri 07 Jul 2017 at 08:50:37 -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:53:09 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 03:31:18PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > >I would be interested if there were.  I've never seen such an
> > > >option
> > > ...
> > > >Let the list know what you discover.
> > > 
> > > I'm surprised to report that the option do manually select
> > > software is no longer there. As I recall, it was essentially
> > > invoking aptitude within d-i, either after or instead of the
> > > normal task selection stage. I've just gone through an expert
> > > mode install with stretch netinst and that option is no longer
> > > available.
> > 
> > The consequences of "progress."
> 
> How does progress proceed from something which never existed?

Happens all the time, but I was being sarcastic.  And "progress" is in
quotes, meaning it's not really that.

B

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#183352

On Fri 07 Jul 2017 at 14:53:09 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 06, 2017 at 03:31:18PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >I would be interested if there were.  I've never seen such an option
> ...
> >Let the list know what you discover.
> 
> I'm surprised to report that the option do manually select software is
> no longer there. As I recall, it was essentially invoking aptitude
> within d-i, either after or instead of the normal task selection stage.
> I've just gone through an expert mode install with stretch netinst and
> that option is no longer available.

I think you'll find that it was in fact dselect. Up to and including
sarge, you were dumped into dselect with a selection of packages
already made, taking into account which sources you had selected.

However, this doesn't affect the intent of this thread. By the time
you got to this installation step, the base system was already
installed and you had rebooted (the "smoke test", remember?), so
the init system was already up and running.

Cheers,
David.

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#183191

> 
> It would be nice to have an install-time option for selecting the desired init.
> 

Exactly what I think too, I have been wanting to start a thread about 
'Is multi-init at install dead?' but keep getting distracted because 
it's actually very interesting in terms of social sciences too.

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#183253

On Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:43:43 +0100 JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> wrote:

> > 
> > It would be nice to have an install-time option for selecting the
> > desired init.
> > 
> 
> Exactly what I think too, I have been wanting to start a thread about 
> 'Is multi-init at install dead?' but keep getting distracted because 
> it's actually very interesting in terms of social sciences too.

I asked that question already several months ago. Lively discussion for
about a week or two.  Check the archive.  Sorry can't remember the
Subject line, off hand.

B

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#183204

On Tue, 04 Jul 2017, David Griffith wrote:
> On July 3, 2017 1:44:30 PM PDT, Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 03/07/17 20:42, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote:
> >> Is there a pure Debian alternative?
> >
> >There is an alternative init daemon, in the form of sysvinit (install 
> >the package "sysvinit-core" to use this as your init daemon), and there
> >are several solutions for service management.
> >
> 
> It would be nice to have an install-time option for selecting the desired init.

It already exists:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/04/msg00097.html

«
You can just append:

preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"

to the installer command line.

Or you can roll your own install media with its own syslinux.cfg which
adds that or something more complicated in a preseed file.

You don't need to fork the installer, or submit any patches upstream.

If you want something more complicated, like not installing systemd at
all, you'll have to pass --include and --exclude options to debootstrap
using the base-installer/includes and base-installer/excludes preseed
options; something like:

base-installer/includes=sysvinit-core base-installer/excludes=systemd-sysv

but that's totally untested.
»

-- 
Don Armstrong                      https://www.donarmstrong.com

No amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free
[...] You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.
 -- Robert Heinlein _Revolt in 2010_ p54

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