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Groups > linux.debian.user > #179886 > unrolled thread
| Started by | David Niklas <doark@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-04-07 20:50 +0200 |
| Last post | 2017-04-13 17:20 +0200 |
| Articles | 7 on this page of 87 — 25 participants |
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If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Niklas <doark@mail.com> - 2017-04-07 20:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Niklas <doark@mail.com> - 2017-04-07 22:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 03:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-08 07:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-08 09:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-04-08 11:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-08 22:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-04-08 11:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-04-08 12:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-04-08 13:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-08 22:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 15:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 01:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-04-09 09:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-04-10 15:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-10 16:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-04-10 16:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-10 16:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-04-10 16:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... tomas@tuxteam.de - 2017-04-10 21:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 02:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-10 23:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 23:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-11 16:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-04-12 17:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-04-12 17:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-12 18:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-04-12 21:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 00:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 22:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-13 00:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 02:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 08:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-13 11:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 22:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 23:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-12 23:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-13 01:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 02:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 22:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-04-13 01:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 02:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 02:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 05:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 03:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2017-04-11 05:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-09 12:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 20:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 03:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-11 15:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 15:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-04-11 17:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 17:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 22:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2017-04-09 23:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 00:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 08:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-10 09:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2017-04-10 16:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-12 11:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 18:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-12 23:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 17:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-13 19:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-04-14 14:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-17 23:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-04-18 16:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-18 17:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-04-18 17:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-20 02:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-21 16:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-04-18 18:50 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-04-20 12:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-04-20 12:00 +0200
Debian contributor Register of Interests (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-05-09 17:00 +0200
Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-05-09 21:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-18 17:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Ben Caradoc-Davies <ben@transient.nz> - 2017-04-18 23:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 18:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-13 03:10 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 03:40 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-13 11:00 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-04-13 04:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-04-13 09:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-04-13 04:20 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-04-13 11:30 +0200
Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ... Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-04-13 17:20 +0200
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| From | Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 03:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvBTP-49F-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180041 |
kAt, write a novel. Sure, some of the people here still don't realize just how bad things are, but there are limits to what individuals and even groups do. My dad used to tell me, if I wanted to change things, I'd have to change them from the inside. It's a poor expression of the principle because you can't get "inside" far enough without X, Y, or Z, and they all make it very difficult to change things once you are inside. So write a novel. That's what I'm doing. I don't know whether I'll convince very many people, but it's helping my ability to express myself. -- Joel Rees I'm imagining I'm a novelist: http://joel-rees-economics.blogspot.com/2017/01/soc500-00-00-toc.html More of my delusions: http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html
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| From | GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 11:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvILE-sK-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180042 |
Joel Rees: > kAt, write a novel. > > My dad used to tell me, if I wanted to change things, I'd have to > change them from the inside. It's a poor expression of the principle > because you can't get "inside" far enough without X, Y, or Z, and they > all make it very difficult to change things once you are inside. Once you are inside you are too pre-occupied in protecting what you are inside of. Change will never come from inside. Joe: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:11:30 -0500 > David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote: > >> BTW I was surprised not to see mention of the Ken Thompson hack >> in what I snipped. > > Old stuff. I'd expect every significant compiler on the planet to have > been compromised by one government or another long ago. It makes no longer a difference, or is it worthwhile to distinguish, between corporate and gov. It is one long chain of domination, no borders, no nations, no private/public separation. One huge system of control. But minds can unplug themselves of the system of illusion. There should be no need for security in a free world/system. Isn't this where unix started from? No locks, no doors, no borders. Instead we are preoccupied in drawing 2 dimensional limits under the eye in the 3rd dimension. Multilingual wikipedia is probably the only thing worth saving from this civilization. -- "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG "Who died and made you the superuser?" Brooklinux
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 04:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvCwx-4Iw-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180041 |
On Thu 13 Apr 2017 at 01:05:00 (+0000), GiaThnYgeia wrote: [big snip] > After all, to say "I am a technical guy not a political one" is a very > politically loaded statement. Dr Strangelove was a technical guy, not > political at all. It is those types you have to watch out for. You've quoted my sentence out of context. I wrote: "I'm not really interested in debating that here, sorry. I've seen too many flame wars in public forums like this. And I'm a technical guy, not a political one." IOW I personally prefer to talk about political issues elsewhere, face to face, and stick to technical issues here. That has nothing to do with Dr Strangelove. I've already written here that I find it difficult to follow your arguments or decode sentences like "Because what is discussed on this thread to me sounds as those who by majority have used the system (mostly for commercial large scale server applications) and are probably the number one source of bugs that feed development did not have much of a say on the direction taken." So I have joined this conversation only to dispute certain technical statements you made, and to ask why you make up statistics to further your hypothetical arguments. BTW I was surprised not to see mention of the Ken Thompson hack in what I snipped. Cheers, David.
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 09:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvHcS-7Xz-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180043 |
On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:11:30 -0500 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote: > > BTW I was surprised not to see mention of the Ken Thompson hack > in what I snipped. > Old stuff. I'd expect every significant compiler on the planet to have been compromised by one government or another long ago. -- Joe
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| From | Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 04:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvCwx-4Iw-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180041 |
> On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:05 PM, GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> wrote: > > The "choice" of going cheap on ancient hardware is that you all knowing > expert "technical" but not "political" folk are really clueless of what > those non-free eight-core gadgets you port your code on contain. It > would take years of testing and listening to identify where those > machines leak from. Geewhiz, most of you can not even swear you can > tell what Ipv6 is all about, yet! Do you have android anonymizing > systems and packages? Tell that to their engineers that have leaked > that it is impossible to do so. 7billion people around earth have self > imposed a gps chip and monitoring system in their pocket 24hrs a day. > Even government and corporate servers are suspect of leaking stuff. The rumors of backdoors built into CPUs goes back to the early days of the Pentium chip, which predates the first Celeron by 5 years. Your argument is not valid, as it is just as possible for your Celeron chip to be compromised at the point of manufacture, usually in China, as it for a newer chip to be compromised. Debian is not in the business of catering to the special needs of conspiracy theorists, but of looking to a technologically developing and progressing future and making it as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. The decisions the developers and project manager make are the best decisions they can make within the constraints of developer time and installer file size. If you truly need to use 18 year old hardware, get your hands on a copy of an old stable installer, say Potato, and use a version of Debian that is compatible with your hardware. Even auto manufacturers are only obligated to make parts for cars up to 10 years old. Cathy
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| From | GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 11:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvJeG-Wr-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180044 |
Catherine Gramze: > /snip... I did not ask for advice on what to do, we are discussing the freedom of choice, remember? > Debian is not in the business of catering to the special needs of conspiracy theorists, > but of looking to a technologically developing and progressing future and making it ... I'd say pushing it not making it > .... The decisions the developers and > project manager make are the best decisions they can make within the > constraints ...... What business of catering is Debian in? Technological developing and progressing future was what we live in. Where are we? Back in the non-central-western-european-middle-ages? What you are saying what big oligarchic industrialist dictate is what Debian should comply with. Those are the constrains. To accept such constrains does not incorporate a value or principles judgement. Then Debian-hierarchy should skip all this open and free moralization it plasters all over the place and just stick to non-free industrialists' puppets they have become, those decision makers, not debian! Debian is all about choice! It is just like claiming the same to the shoppers in the wal-mart racks, at this stage. > Cathy What is your interest in defending the authorities of this hierarchy? Are they hiring or are you already in? In this case you shouldn't be on the "users" list. kAt -- "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG "Who died and made you the superuser?" Brooklinux
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| From | Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-13 17:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tvOHn-4KC-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #180055 |
> On Apr 13, 2017, at 5:23 AM, GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> wrote: > > Catherine Gramze: >> /snip... > > I did not ask for advice on what to do, we are discussing the freedom of > choice, remember? Yes, your freedom of choice to attempt to do something ridiculous. Making choices that are not within the realm of the possible indicates a faulty thought process. > What business of catering is Debian in? > Technological developing and progressing future was what we live in. So try joining us here, instead of in your fantasy. > Then Debian-hierarchy should skip all this open and free moralization it > plasters all over the place and just stick to non-free industrialists' > puppets they have become, those decision makers, not debian! > > Debian is all about choice! It is just like claiming the same to the > shoppers in the wal-mart racks, at this stage. You seem to be confusing RHEL with Debian. Critical decisions like switching to systemd or dropping support for ancient hardware are not made capriciously, or because "industry" wants it, but are voted on by the Debian community. Sometimes just the developers, sometimes the users as well. You do still have the option of using ancient hardware. You just might have to use an older version of Debian with it. That is the logical consequence of your peculiar hardware choice. > What is your interest in defending the authorities of this hierarchy? > Are they hiring or are you already in? At one time I began the process to become a Debian package maintainer, but made the switch to Apple instead. So, no, I am only a user. I defend the "hierarchy" because I have some understanding of how it actually works, which is messy because it is democratic. You seem to be assuming some corporate structure and employees, which is not the case. Debian runs on volunteer labor. The developers elect the "boss" aka the project manager. They take Free Software seriously, donating their evening and weekend time and expertise to Debian while they work day jobs. Cathy
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