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Groups > linux.debian.user > #178929 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Adrian O'Dell <crimsonmane@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-03-16 16:30 +0100 |
| Last post | 2017-03-21 16:00 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 118 — 23 participants |
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Re: Suggested edit Adrian O'Dell <crimsonmane@gmail.com> - 2017-03-16 16:30 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-16 17:10 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-17 15:30 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-17 16:40 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 17:10 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 18:00 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-03-17 18:40 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-17 18:50 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-17 19:00 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-20 11:00 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-17 18:10 +0100
Re: Suggested edit Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-03-17 18:50 +0100
installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-20 10:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 21:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-20 21:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-20 22:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 01:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 01:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 03:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 04:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 11:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 16:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-03-21 16:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 18:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 19:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-21 19:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-03-22 10:20 +0100
Re: cell phone .sigs (was: installer defaults for desktops) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-22 10:50 +0100
Re: cell phone .sigs (was: installer defaults for desktops) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-03-22 11:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2017-04-01 18:50 +0200
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 19:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 20:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 21:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-03-21 19:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 20:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-03-21 20:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 21:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-22 00:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-22 02:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-03-22 04:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-03-22 13:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-22 13:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-03-22 13:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-03-24 07:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-24 11:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2017-03-24 17:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-24 18:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 11:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-03-23 13:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 13:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-23 22:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 11:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-03-24 13:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 16:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 16:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-03-24 19:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 10:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-24 11:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-22 17:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 20:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-21 20:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-21 16:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-21 17:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-23 17:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-23 18:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 18:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-23 19:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 19:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-23 19:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 19:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-23 23:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 23:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-24 00:20 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 00:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-24 01:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-24 02:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-24 05:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 08:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-24 19:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-24 20:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-24 02:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-24 03:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-24 15:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-24 19:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-24 21:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-24 23:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-25 00:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-25 02:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-25 03:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-24 13:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-24 15:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 16:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-24 19:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> - 2017-03-24 20:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-24 20:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-23 19:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-03-23 19:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-24 11:30 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2017-03-23 20:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-23 17:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 00:50 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-21 01:40 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 03:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-21 11:40 +0100
[TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-22 15:10 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 15:30 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-22 16:00 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 16:40 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-22 18:30 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 18:50 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-03-23 17:50 +0100
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) cbannister@slingshot.co.nz - 2017-04-01 20:10 +0200
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 20:50 +0200
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 22:30 +0200
Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 23:10 +0200
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 12:10 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-03-21 13:00 +0100
Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 16:00 +0100
Page 3 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Next page →
| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 13:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tnNfs-2bK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179136 |
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote: > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base system only installation because the Debian installer let them inadvertently get there? If they're like you, yes. Good riddance.
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 13:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tnNp7-2fJ-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179152 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:06:46AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote: > > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base system only > > installation because the Debian installer let them inadvertently get there? > > If they're like you, yes. Good riddance. This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user sometimes. There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree with each other. This list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please either post friendly and constructively or not at all. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 13:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tnNyO-2kr-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179153 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:16:54PM +0000, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:06:46AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote: > > > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base system only > > > installation because the Debian installer let them inadvertently get there? > > > > If they're like you, yes. Good riddance. > > This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user sometimes. > There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree with each other. This > list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please either post friendly and > constructively or not at all. A pity indeed. Sometimes threads become "rotten": this seems to be an example of that. I try to just ignore those. Regards - -- t -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAljSbTAACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZccQCdHp5FSYvIaPZ2MiITPmAnJv6x hxoAn1Yc8LN1IoVdXFC2sKKvAtUHN3D0 =vfkS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 07:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <toqTw-5Py-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179156 |
Hello, On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 01:25:20PM +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:16:54PM +0000, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user sometimes. > > There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree with each other. This > > list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please either post friendly and > > constructively or not at all. > > A pity indeed. Sometimes threads become "rotten": this seems to be an example > of that. I try to just ignore those. It can be useful to note the names of people who can't seem to prevent themselves from writing argumentative and massively off-topic responses over and over again. It's a relatively small but vocal list. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 11:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <touu5-8u8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179233 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 06:29:35AM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> It can be useful to note the names of people who can't seem to
> prevent themselves from writing argumentative and massively
> off-topic responses over and over again. It's a relatively small but
> vocal list.
Yes... but,
a) the whole list is small and vocal, unfortunately
b) killfiling on an individual basis (which I do) does not improve the quality
of the list for others (nor Debian's reputation)
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 17:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <toAga-4c4-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179238 |
Hi Jonathan, On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 10:16:16AM +0000, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 06:29:35AM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > > It can be useful to note the names of people who can't seem to > > prevent themselves from writing argumentative and massively > > off-topic responses over and over again. It's a relatively small but > > vocal list. > > Yes... but, > > a) the whole list is small and vocal, unfortunately > b) killfiling on an individual basis (which I do) does not improve the quality > of the list for others (nor Debian's reputation) I completely agree. This small group of people are ruining it for everyone and it's not something that can be fixed on a mailing list that doesn't commit to ruthless banning of off-topic postings. :( It's a pity that the Debian Shapado instance at https://ask.debian.net didn't take off more than it did (and now seems to be completely broken). That does at least allow Stack Overflow-style scoring of answers to keep things mostly on-topic. There is also the Debian tag on Stack Overflow, though that is of course hosted on non-free software. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/debian Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 18:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <toBlU-4TS-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179233 |
On 2017-03-24, Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> wrote: > > It can be useful to note the names of people who can't seem to > prevent themselves from writing argumentative and massively > off-topic responses over and over again. It's a relatively small but > vocal list. Right. Let's write the names down and communicate them to the proper authorities. I just hope I'm offered a final cigarette and a blindfold. > Cheers, > Andy > -- "It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs. Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.
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| From | Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-23 11:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <to8ad-TC-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179153 |
Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:06:46AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote:
>> > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base system only
>> > installation because the Debian installer let them inadvertently get there?
>>
>> If they're like you, yes. Good riddance.
>
> This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user sometimes.
> There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree with each other. This
> list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please either post friendly and
> constructively or not at all.
I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just plain
wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove her thesis,
and has been contradicting herself.
Continuing to be nice in some misguided attempt at false balance *does*
*not* *help*. If someone is wrong, they should be told; if they insist
on not wanting to be educated, at a certain point you must simply wash
your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* constructive.
"Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore"
- Cicero
Mart
--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-23 13:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <to9zk-1HJ-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179186 |
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:07:22 +0100 Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> wrote: > Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes: > > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:06:46AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote: > >> > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base > >> > system only installation because the Debian installer let them > >> > inadvertently get there? > >> > >> If they're like you, yes. Good riddance. > > > > This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user > > sometimes. There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree > > with each other. This list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please > > either post friendly and constructively or not at all. > > I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just plain > wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove her > thesis, and has been contradicting herself. > > Continuing to be nice in some misguided attempt at false balance > *does* *not* *help*. If someone is wrong, they should be told; if > they insist on not wanting to be educated, at a certain point you > must simply wash your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* > constructive. > > "Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore" > - Cicero But it can be done politely, and with dignity, and sometimes is. 'Good riddance' is not, by any possible standard, polite. -- Joe
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-23 13:40 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <toac2-2e7-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179189 |
On Thursday 23 March 2017 11:50:33 Joe wrote: > On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:07:22 +0100 > > Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> wrote: > > Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes: > > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:06:46AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > >> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote: > > >> > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base > > >> > system only installation because the Debian installer let them > > >> > inadvertently get there? > > >> > > >> If they're like you, yes. Good riddance. > > > > > > This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user > > > sometimes. There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree > > > with each other. This list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please > > > either post friendly and constructively or not at all. > > > > I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just plain > > wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove her > > thesis, and has been contradicting herself. > > > > Continuing to be nice in some misguided attempt at false balance > > *does* *not* *help*. If someone is wrong, they should be told; if > > they insist on not wanting to be educated, at a certain point you > > must simply wash your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* > > constructive. > > > > "Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore" > > - Cicero > > But it can be done politely, and with dignity, and sometimes is. 'Good > riddance' is not, by any possible standard, polite. Cuiusvis hominis est errare. Greg is human too, and had been becoming more and more exasperated. I can think of one or two of the highest value (IMHO) people on this list who are sometimes very impolite. As I said to the victim of one of them (and I too have been the "victim"), if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Catherine *had* been told politely, repeatedly, but had not been willing to "hear". Lisi
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-23 22:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tohZU-7Mb-25@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179186 |
On Thu 23 Mar 2017 at 11:07:22 +0100, Mart van de Wege wrote: > Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes: > > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:06:46AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 08:52:46PM -0400, Catherine Gramze wrote: > >> > Do you prefer that people move on to other distros after a base system only > >> > installation because the Debian installer let them inadvertently get there? > >> > >> If they're like you, yes. Good riddance. > > > > This thread is a great example of why I really despise debian-user sometimes. > > There's no reason to be so hostile, you simply disagree with each other. This > > list is too toxic a lot of the time. Please either post friendly and > > constructively or not at all. > > I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just plain > wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove her thesis, > and has been contradicting herself. > > Continuing to be nice in some misguided attempt at false balance *does* > *not* *help*. If someone is wrong, they should be told; if they insist > on not wanting to be educated, at a certain point you must simply wash > your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* constructive. "Wrong" is wrong. Sometimes a rubust reply is required. This is not in itself being hostile. The seeds of hostilty have probably been sown earlier with the publishing of ill thought out ideas and information. > "Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore" > - Cicero This man has been banned from debian.roman.equestris for having a malign and toxic influence. Do you really think you should be puffing him? -- Brian.
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 11:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <touDM-64-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179186 |
On Friday 24 March 2017 10:20:46 Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:07:22AM +0100, Mart van de Wege wrote: > > I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just plain > > wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove her thesis, > > and has been contradicting herself. > > Catherine's *suggestion* has been shot down for causing problems for some > use-cases; but the problem she wants to address still exists and is still > in need of a solution. I see very little interest here in people actually > addressing the problem (except Catherine); just a lot of "Get off my > lawn"-style posts, and a propensity of people to misprepresent *their* > opinion with that of the project as a whole. > > > if they insist on not wanting to be educated > > Interestingly that's exactly how I'd characterize most of the responses > *to* Catherine; deaf ears to the problem, due to dissatisafaction with a > proposed solution. > > > at a certain point you must simply wash > > your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* constructive. > > "Washing your hands" is deleting the thread and moving on; it's not posting > aggressive, toxic messages. What we have *all* been losing sight of in this thread is that none of us can do anything about it anyway. An installer proposal needs making to the installer developers. Lisi
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 13:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <towcx-1kb-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179239 |
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:29:09 +0000 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote: > On Friday 24 March 2017 10:20:46 Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:07:22AM +0100, Mart van de Wege wrote: > > > I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just > > > plain wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove > > > her thesis, and has been contradicting herself. > > > > Catherine's *suggestion* has been shot down for causing problems > > for some use-cases; but the problem she wants to address still > > exists and is still in need of a solution. I see very little > > interest here in people actually addressing the problem (except > > Catherine); just a lot of "Get off my lawn"-style posts, and a > > propensity of people to misprepresent *their* opinion with that of > > the project as a whole. > > > if they insist on not wanting to be educated > > > > Interestingly that's exactly how I'd characterize most of the > > responses *to* Catherine; deaf ears to the problem, due to > > dissatisafaction with a proposed solution. > > > > > at a certain point you must simply wash > > > your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* constructive. > > > > "Washing your hands" is deleting the thread and moving on; it's not > > posting aggressive, toxic messages. > > What we have *all* been losing sight of in this thread is that none > of us can do anything about it anyway. An installer proposal needs > making to the installer developers. > And before that happens, there needs to be some sort of consensus as to what might constitute an improvement, which a group of Debian users might reasonably be expected to discuss. Politely. I would have thought that where an installation is expected to end up without a network connection, particularly a netinstall, the user should be notified and asked whether to continue. I've mentioned recently that I once did a non-expert netinstall, in the days when I used static addresses and no DHCP, and was miffed to find I had no network interfaces at the end of the process. I wasn't a complete beginner, I had more than one computer available, and it wasn't that hard to fix, but I was still annoyed not to have been warned about this behaviour, which was completely undesirable but deliberate, beforehand. Not quite the same situation, but similar. -- Joe
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 16:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tozaq-3qf-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179244 |
On Friday 24 March 2017 12:06:58 Joe wrote: > the user > should be notified and asked whether to continue. The user *is* notified and asked whether to continue. The user is not *prevented* from continuing, should he or she be perverse enough to wish to do so. Lisi
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 16:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tozaq-3qf-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179244 |
On Friday 24 March 2017 12:06:58 Joe wrote: > I've mentioned recently that I once did a non-expert netinstall, in the > days when I used static addresses and no DHCP, and was miffed to find I > had no network interfaces at the end of the process. Until fairly recently I have always had static IPs and chosen to use static IPs. I have always been able to tell the installer so, and have ended up with a properly configured network and a well-written network interfaces file. I now use DHCP with addresses fixed in the router via MAC address, so this doesn't arise. Lisi
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| From | Joe <joe@jretrading.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 19:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <toC8i-5sk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179253 |
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 15:18:31 +0000 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote: > On Friday 24 March 2017 12:06:58 Joe wrote: > > I've mentioned recently that I once did a non-expert netinstall, in > > the days when I used static addresses and no DHCP, and was miffed > > to find I had no network interfaces at the end of the process. > > Until fairly recently I have always had static IPs and chosen to use > static IPs. I have always been able to tell the installer so, and > have ended up with a properly configured network and a well-written > network interfaces file. a) Is this with a not-expert installation? and b) Even though you did not use it, was a DHCP server running in the network? I've no idea if it is true today, but when this incident happened, the combination of non-expert and no DHCP server detected resulted in no network drivers being loaded, even though the network had been used during installation. When I reported it as a bug I was told it was not, it was a feature. Presumably only experts understand network configuration. I've always used expert mode before and since, but on that occasion it was some kind of temporary installation and I thought that non-expert ought to take care of it. -- Joe
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-25 10:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <toQ1A-78B-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179268 |
On Friday 24 March 2017 18:25:30 Joe wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 15:18:31 +0000 > > Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Friday 24 March 2017 12:06:58 Joe wrote: > > > I've mentioned recently that I once did a non-expert netinstall, in > > > the days when I used static addresses and no DHCP, and was miffed > > > to find I had no network interfaces at the end of the process. > > > > Until fairly recently I have always had static IPs and chosen to use > > static IPs. I have always been able to tell the installer so, and > > have ended up with a properly configured network and a well-written > > network interfaces file. > > a) Is this with a not-expert installation? I used to chose "expert" long enough to chose a non-default DE, when that was how one had to do it, but it then went back to the "automatic" installation unless one went backwards at any stage. (One chose expert install, chose a DE, clicked "install", the installer took over.) Perhaps choosing a different DE affected how the installer ran. I could never see why not wanting Gnome counted as expert and always thought that a lot of non-experts who didn't want Gnome, must have got landed with it, for fear of asking for an expert install, even briefly. > and > b) Even though you did not use it, was a DHCP server running in the > network? Yes. > I've no idea if it is true today, but when this incident happened, the > combination of non-expert and no DHCP server detected resulted in no > network drivers being loaded, even though the network had been used > during installation. > > When I reported it as a bug I was told it was not, it was a feature. > Presumably only experts understand network configuration. I've always > used expert mode before and since, but on that occasion it was some kind > of temporary installation and I thought that non-expert ought to take > care of it. I am sure that something similar came up recently with the Live CD. I am obviously lucky that it didn't happen! Maybe it was to do with which driver(s) were needed. Lisi
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 11:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <touDM-64-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179186 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:07:22AM +0100, Mart van de Wege wrote: > I disagree. Sometimes there is no disagreement, someone is just plain > wrong. Catherine has been given the use cases that disprove her thesis, > and has been contradicting herself. Catherine's *suggestion* has been shot down for causing problems for some use-cases; but the problem she wants to address still exists and is still in need of a solution. I see very little interest here in people actually addressing the problem (except Catherine); just a lot of "Get off my lawn"-style posts, and a propensity of people to misprepresent *their* opinion with that of the project as a whole. > if they insist on not wanting to be educated Interestingly that's exactly how I'd characterize most of the responses *to* Catherine; deaf ears to the problem, due to dissatisafaction with a proposed solution. > at a certain point you must simply wash > your hands of them. It's not nice, but it *is* constructive. "Washing your hands" is deleting the thread and moving on; it's not posting aggressive, toxic messages. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-22 17:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tnQZI-586-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179136 |
On Tue 21 Mar 2017 at 20:52:46 (-0400), Catherine Gramze wrote: > Sent from my iPad > > > On Mar 21, 2017, at 7:20 PM, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> On Tue 21 Mar 2017 at 15:44:18 (-0400), Catherine Gramze wrote: > >> > >> The installer allows you to continue the installation without a configured network card, and it shouldn't. > > > > Please explain how this statement doesn't take away the option of > > continuing the installation without a configured network card. > > You are perfectly free to remove that $15 USB NIC after you reach the installation point you want. …which contradicts your statement "Please explain how you think my suggestion takes away any installation options, because it doesn't. You can still do any type of installation you want." > The point of Debian is not elitist snobbery, but universal access. So now it's elitist snobbery to disobey your order to buy a $5 NIC? I think you should contemplate the words "universal access". > What is wrong with a simple change that would make it clear to the beginner that they can't do what they want to do, and need to do some reading? As I said, there's nothing wrong IMO with a change to make the d-i warn that selecting certain options will have certain consequences, just like the example I gave of swap. Just no refusals, right? > This rabid insistence on being able to use the netinst installer without a network is ridiculous. Of course I'm insistent that one is able to install without a network and using the netinst installer. I've done it. It didn't seem ridiculous at the time. The results were spelled out in the other subthread, in reply to your Tue 21 Mar 2017 at 10:33:29 (-0400) post. All you're demonstrating here is your lack of ingenuity, and a desire to prevent others from exercising theirs. Cheers, David.
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| From | Catherine Gramze <rhiamom@mac.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-21 20:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit) |
| Message-ID | <tnxu1-7Db-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #179117 |
Sent from my iPad > On Mar 21, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote: > > > That doesn't mean the installer should refuse to work. There is > absolutely nothing wrong with doing a minimal install using a netinst > image to get a working Debian system. Maybe you want to do the first > part of the install on this machine in one location where there's no > network, and then carry the machine to another location to finish it up. You can't do that. The network card is recognized and configured very early in the installation, and you can't carry the machine to another location without either aborting the installation or finishing up the base installation. That pesky power plug, you know. > Maybe your network is temporarily slow or unreliable because your kids > are streaming YouTube, so you'll do the first part of the install now, > then wait a few hours to do the rest. That assumes a working network card, so is irrelevant to your objection to requiring one. > Maybe ALL YOU WANT is a minimal > system, and you have no intention of networking it, ever. Maybe you > have some other goals that I can't even guess. There's no reason for > the installer to REFUSE TO LET YOU DO THIS. You are asking for Debian > to take away functionality for NO REASON. This suggestion in no way prevents you from doing a base installation only if that is what you want. It simply ensures that people who don't want just a base installation don't end up with it.
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