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Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?

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  Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-17 14:50 +0100
    Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-03-17 15:30 +0100
    Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-03-17 17:20 +0100
      Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-17 21:40 +0100
        Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-17 22:00 +0100
          Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-17 23:30 +0100
          Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-18 18:40 +0100
            Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-18 19:00 +0100
              Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> - 2017-03-18 20:30 +0100
                Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-19 00:20 +0100
                  Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-19 12:40 +0100
                    Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-19 14:20 +0100
                      Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-19 15:00 +0100
                        Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-20 05:30 +0100
                          Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-21 00:10 +0100
                            Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-21 02:30 +0100
                              Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-21 21:40 +0100
                                Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-22 11:00 +0100
                            Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 03:30 +0100
                              Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-03-21 13:20 +0100
                                Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 13:00 +0100
            Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-18 19:10 +0100
        Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-18 04:50 +0100
          Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-18 11:40 +0100
        Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-03-18 19:40 +0100
          Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-03-18 20:30 +0100
            Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-03-19 04:00 +0100
    Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-18 12:00 +0100
    An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic  scans DVDs?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-23 02:10 +0100
      Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-23 10:50 +0100
      Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-03-23 11:20 +0100
        Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-23 12:30 +0100
          Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-24 22:40 +0100
            Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-25 12:00 +0100
              Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-26 00:30 +0100
                Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-26 13:40 +0200
                  Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-28 04:50 +0200
                    Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-03-28 18:20 +0200
                      Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-28 21:10 +0200
                      Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-29 20:20 +0200
            Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-25 14:10 +0100
              Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-03-25 22:10 +0100
                Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-03-26 14:30 +0200
      Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when  Synaptic scans DVDs?] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-03-24 19:40 +0100

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#179304

On Tuesday 21 March 2017 12:11:00 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 02:27:47AM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > Brian, I squirmed.  "Data is" ... I can just about handle.  I CANNOT
> > (yes, I can shout too!!!!!) handle "agenda is".  Agenda are always more
> > than one thing.
>
> That is not how the word is used in current English.  Just run "dict
> agenda" on Debian (if dict is installed), and it'll show you several
> definitions, from several different sources, most of them showing "agenda"
> as a singular noun.
>
> The only source that shows it as a plural is the venerable 1913 Webster
> (the last time a published work in the USA entered the public domain;
> thanks, Disney).  At some point in the last 104 years, the word's usage
> has evolved.  Sorry, but that happens from time to time.

I'm still allowed to squirm.  It was Brian after all.  And Brian was himself 
objecting to the (mis)use of "data", which I am sure that you can justify 
along the same lines.

Yes, of course many people currently talk in a sloppy manner.  But not Brian.  

My cool drinks are cold, not fashionable, and when I say that a fairy 
godmother is wicked it is not a compliment.

Lisi

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#178998

On 2017-03-18, GiaThnYgeia <GiaThnYgeia@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> Brian:
>> On Fri 17 Mar 2017 at 15:29:58 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> 
>>> On 03/17/2017 11:15 AM, songbird wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  man apt-get
>>>
>>> It implies *BUT DOES _NOT_ STATE* the all the requested data is in the
>>> /var/lib/apt directory.
>> 
>> Stop pissing about. Is the data in /var/lib/apt or not?
>
> I use to have friends like you when I worked in boat yards .... and
> ships.  They seemed to behave better while talking to someone with a 4"
> pipe wrench in hand.  Is this what it is about?  Not having a wrench
> around you?
>

Actually B. is a six foot seven inch rugbyman who'd crush you underfoot
like someone not wielding a 4" pipe wrench even if you were (wielding a
4" pipe wrench). 

And anyway, it's obvious Dick Owlett is crowdsourcing his retirement,
and although it's smart and modern, where's the fun in that?

-- 
"It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the
far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs.
Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To
the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.

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#178984

On Fri 17 Mar 2017 at 15:29:58 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/17/2017 11:15 AM, songbird wrote:
> >Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
> >>Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
> >>install to a different partition.
> >>It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
> >>Where is the information stored?
> >>/etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
> >>of each DVD stored?
> >
> >  man apt-get
> 
> It implies *BUT DOES _NOT_ STATE* the all the requested data is in
> the /var/lib/apt directory.

(Three levels of emphasis?)

IIRC the command to scan is apt-cdrom. Are DVDs handled any
differently? Anyway,   man apt-cdrom   says:

    "APT uses a CD-ROM ID to track which disc is currently in the drive
     and maintains a database of these IDs in /var/lib/apt/cdroms.list"

I don't think the apt suite has much choice about where to put this
information; the FHS mandates it in §5.8.1.

But I don't think /var/lib is designed to be shared between systems,
and so I think you may need to delve into the intricacies of how
the information is stored if you're going to share it in any way.

I assume you can find out which files are involved just by scanning a
disc and looking at the file timestamps. I would also assume that one
disc≡one file rather like the Packages files, but have nothing to
check this out with. If it's that simple, it then just comes down to
how the files link with the contents of cdroms.list. Looking at the
latter, I would imagine they use the GUID in there for the
lists/<filename>. I'm not sure about the -2 suffix I see in there.

> I hadn't thought of looking at apt-get when I posted, even though I
> had just chased down some differences on how synaptic and apt-get
> differed in how they logged some trans action. mea culpa ;>
> 
> >  and as i've previously said, you can copy the
> >dvds to spinning rust or a SSD and avoid all
> >future needs to reload from them again...
> 
> Yes but <smile>
> in my peculiar situation it is better to know on which DVD something
> resides than to spend ~1000 times more storage space to duplicate
> the data.

I thought you had copied your DVDs back in 2015. I remember only
because you incorrectly shouted that you'd used the past tense when
you wrote "I have copied…". No, it was also because I objected to
the word "VIOLATES" (also shouted).

> >  and futhermore, if you are doing partitions
> >you can do some minimal install to get the base
> >system going, then do a partition copy of that
> >and you'll not have to redo the previous steps
> >again to recover if you want to try something
> >else.

I presume it's those "previous steps" that interest you,
in continuance of your research into preseeding installations.

Cheers,
David.

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#178990

On 03/17/2017 10:43 PM, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 17 Mar 2017 at 15:29:58 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 03/17/2017 11:15 AM, songbird wrote:
>>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>>>> As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
>>>> Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
>>>> install to a different partition.
>>>> It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
>>>> Where is the information stored?
>>>> /etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
>>>> of each DVD stored?
>>>
>>>  man apt-get
>>
>> It implies *BUT DOES _NOT_ STATE* the all the requested data is in
>> the /var/lib/apt directory.
>
> (Three levels of emphasis?)

Sorry, but I was having a generally bad day ;}

>
> IIRC the command to scan is apt-cdrom. Are DVDs handled any
> differently? Anyway,   man apt-cdrom   says:
>
>     "APT uses a CD-ROM ID to track which disc is currently in the drive
>      and maintains a database of these IDs in /var/lib/apt/cdroms.list"
>
> I don't think the apt suite has much choice about where to put this
> information; the FHS mandates it in §5.8.1.
>
> But I don't think /var/lib is designed to be shared between systems,
> and so I think you may need to delve into the intricacies of how
> the information is stored if you're going to share it in any way.

Between FHS and man apt-cdrom references and included links I've just 
bookmarked 13 pages for further study. They give answers to some 
questions I haven't been able to articulate. There are hints of how-to 
{and how-NOT-to} accomplish some of my goals.


>
> I assume you can find out which files are involved just by scanning a
> disc and looking at the file timestamps. I would also assume that one
> disc≡one file rather like the Packages files, but have nothing to
> check this out with. If it's that simple, it then just comes down to
> how the files link with the contents of cdroms.list. Looking at the
> latter, I would imagine they use the GUID in there for the
> lists/<filename>. I'm not sure about the -2 suffix I see in there.
>
>> I hadn't thought of looking at apt-get when I posted, even though I
>> had just chased down some differences on how synaptic and apt-get
>> differed in how they logged some trans action. mea culpa ;>
>>
>>>  and as i've previously said, you can copy the
>>> dvds to spinning rust or a SSD and avoid all
>>> future needs to reload from them again...
>>
>> Yes but <smile>
>> in my peculiar situation it is better to know on which DVD something
>> resides than to spend ~1000 times more storage space to duplicate
>> the data.
>
> I thought you had copied your DVDs back in 2015. I remember only
> because you incorrectly shouted that you'd used the past tense when
> you wrote "I have copied…". No, it was also because I objected to
> the word "VIOLATES" (also shouted).

That has gone thru several variations, some mutually inconsistent. 
That's one of my reasons to work from the DVDs themselves.

>
>>>  and futhermore, if you are doing partitions
>>> you can do some minimal install to get the base
>>> system going, then do a partition copy of that
>>> and you'll not have to redo the previous steps
>>> again to recover if you want to try something
>>> else.
>
> I presume it's those "previous steps" that interest you,
> in continuance of your research into preseeding installations.
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
>

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#178999

Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/17/2017 11:15 AM, songbird wrote:
>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
>>> Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
>>> install to a different partition.
>>> It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
>>> Where is the information stored?
>>> /etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
>>> of each DVD stored?
>>
>>   man apt-get
>
> It implies *BUT DOES _NOT_ STATE* the all the requested data is in the 
> /var/lib/apt directory.
>
> I hadn't thought of looking at apt-get when I posted, even though I had 
> just chased down some differences on how synaptic and apt-get differed 
> in how they logged some trans action. mea culpa ;>


  a tool like tripwire or even git will track 
changes made if you don't trust the package file
list itself.

  an even more lightweight solution is using find
along with a timestamp file as a reference.

...

  as for space, space is cheap these days, it takes
a lot longer to load files from dvd for each install
instead of loading them from another media.  if i
were doing as many installs as you seem to be doing
i for sure would not want to waste my time waiting 
for something to happen that can go much faster
otherwise (which is why partition copies are my 
method of choice).  but hey, it's your life and time 
i hope you are enjoying this...  ;)


  songbird

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#179001

songbird wrote:

> as for space, space is cheap these days, it takes
> a lot longer to load files from dvd for each install
> instead of loading them from another media.  if i
> were doing as many installs as you seem to be doing
> i for sure would not want to waste my time waiting
> for something to happen that can go much faster
> otherwise (which is why partition copies are my
> method of choice).  but hey, it's your life and time
> i hope you are enjoying this...  ;)

very good advise songbird

we would usually dd the iso and mount via loop, then use either http or file
share to provide the installer to the client

regards

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#179007

deloptes wrote:
...
> very good advise songbird
>
> we would usually dd the iso and mount via loop, then use either http or file
> share to provide the installer to the client


  plenty of ways to get this done.

  i forgot to mention that i've had media go bad 
(both cds and dvds) and at that point i've also 
had the installer fail because it could not read 
a file from the disk.  copied what i could off
the disk onto the external USB drive and then
used the snapshot repository to get the deb that
was corrupted and all was good.

  spinning rust, usb stick or ssd at least is
more likely to not go bad.


  songbird

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#178991

On 2017-03-17, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
> Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh 
> install to a different partition.
> It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
> Where is the information stored?
> /etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents 
> of each DVD stored?

https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#list-image-contents

So

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/8.7.0/amd64/list-dvd/

for Debian Jessie 8.7 (AMD 64), for example.

Maybe not what you're asking. But if you would be kind enough to tailor your
questions to my answers, it would be much more pleasant for the both of us.


-- 
"It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the
far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs.
Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To
the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.

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#179172 — An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On 03/17/2017 08:47 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
> Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
> install to a different partition.
> It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
> Where is the information stored?
> /etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
> of each DVD stored?
> TIA

It had been suggested that all the needed information might be in
/etc/apt/sources.list
      PLUS
the /var/lib/apt directory

It ain't :{

I'll scan the DVD's as I have an immediate need to add several packages 
to my current active install.

About 18 months to 2 years ago someone had suggested in a totally 
unrelated thread a brute force method to trace file modifications which 
are either undocumented or incompletely documented. I'll search my 
personal archives for that methodology and apply it.

As I have time available, I'll try to document the validity of any 
extension of that approach. Don't expect posts in the near term to this 
thread as I have projects with higher priority. Even for a retiree there 
only so many hours in a week ;/

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#179182 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Wed 22 Mar 2017 at 20:08:28 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 03/17/2017 08:47 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
> >Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
> >install to a different partition.
> >It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
> >Where is the information stored?
> >/etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
> >of each DVD stored?
> >TIA
> 
> It had been suggested that all the needed information might be in
> /etc/apt/sources.list
>      PLUS
> the /var/lib/apt directory
> 
> It ain't :{

What information is missing?

-- 
Brian.

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#179185 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:08:28PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>On 03/17/2017 08:47 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
>>Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
>>install to a different partition.
>>It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
>>Where is the information stored?
>>/etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
>>of each DVD stored?
>>TIA
>
>It had been suggested that all the needed information might be in
>/etc/apt/sources.list
>     PLUS
>the /var/lib/apt directory
>
>It ain't :{

Looking at the source, apt-cdrom does a bunch of checks and then calls 
into pkgCdrom::Add()[1]. That does some more checks and then the 
interesting stuff seems to start around line 746.

The Configuration Database (TODO: Find where this is stored... Ah, I 
*think* that's the /var/lib/apt/cdroms.list mentioned earlier) is 
checked for existance of the CD and updated, if necessary.  The next 
interesting part is at line 838 where the packages are copied.  This 
seems to happen in IndexCopy::CopyPackages()[2] which, at line 97, 
creates a file in /var/cache/apt/archives/partial/ containing the 
contents of the cdrom.

[1] http://sources.debian.net/src/apt/1.4~rc2/apt-pkg/cdrom.cc/
[2] http://sources.debian.net/src/apt/1.4~rc2/apt-pkg/indexcopy.cc/


So, in summary, I think you need /etc/apt/sources.list, /var/lib/apt 
*AND* /var/cache/apt/archives.


>
>I'll scan the DVD's as I have an immediate need to add several 
>packages to my current active install.
>
>About 18 months to 2 years ago someone had suggested in a totally 
>unrelated thread a brute force method to trace file modifications 
>which are either undocumented or incompletely documented. I'll search 
>my personal archives for that methodology and apply it.
>
>As I have time available, I'll try to document the validity of any 
>extension of that approach. Don't expect posts in the near term to 
>this thread as I have projects with higher priority. Even for a 
>retiree there only so many hours in a week ;/
>
>
>

-- 
For more information, please reread.

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#179187 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Thu 23 Mar 2017 at 10:12:57 +0000, Darac Marjal wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:08:28PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >On 03/17/2017 08:47 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
> >>Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
> >>install to a different partition.
> >>It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
> >>Where is the information stored?
> >>/etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
> >>of each DVD stored?
> >>TIA
> >
> >It had been suggested that all the needed information might be in
> >/etc/apt/sources.list
> >    PLUS
> >the /var/lib/apt directory
> >
> >It ain't :{
> 
> Looking at the source, apt-cdrom does a bunch of checks and then calls into
> pkgCdrom::Add()[1]. That does some more checks and then the interesting
> stuff seems to start around line 746.
> 
> The Configuration Database (TODO: Find where this is stored... Ah, I *think*
> that's the /var/lib/apt/cdroms.list mentioned earlier) is checked for
> existance of the CD and updated, if necessary.  The next interesting part is
> at line 838 where the packages are copied.  This seems to happen in
> IndexCopy::CopyPackages()[2] which, at line 97, creates a file in
> /var/cache/apt/archives/partial/ containing the contents of the cdrom.
> 
> [1] http://sources.debian.net/src/apt/1.4~rc2/apt-pkg/cdrom.cc/
> [2] http://sources.debian.net/src/apt/1.4~rc2/apt-pkg/indexcopy.cc/
> 
> 
> So, in summary, I think you need /etc/apt/sources.list, /var/lib/apt *AND*
> /var/cache/apt/archives.

Suppose /var/cache/apt/archives is empty because 'apt-get clean' has
been run. What then?

-- 
Brian.

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#179286 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Thu 23 Mar 2017 at 11:29:38 (+0000), Brian wrote:
> On Thu 23 Mar 2017 at 10:12:57 +0000, Darac Marjal wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 08:08:28PM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > >On 03/17/2017 08:47 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > >>As I have limited bandwidth, I install from DVDs.
> > >>Also I frequently experiment with various options by doing a fresh
> > >>install to a different partition.
> > >>It is annoying to keep re-scanning a set of 13 DVDs.
> > >>Where is the information stored?
> > >>/etc/apt/sources.list is obvious, but where is the data about contents
> > >>of each DVD stored?
> > >>TIA
> > >
> > >It had been suggested that all the needed information might be in
> > >/etc/apt/sources.list
> > >    PLUS
> > >the /var/lib/apt directory
> > >
> > >It ain't :{
> > 
> > Looking at the source, apt-cdrom does a bunch of checks and then calls into
> > pkgCdrom::Add()[1]. That does some more checks and then the interesting
> > stuff seems to start around line 746.
> > 
> > The Configuration Database (TODO: Find where this is stored... Ah, I *think*
> > that's the /var/lib/apt/cdroms.list mentioned earlier) is checked for
> > existance of the CD and updated, if necessary.  The next interesting part is
> > at line 838 where the packages are copied.  This seems to happen in
> > IndexCopy::CopyPackages()[2] which, at line 97, creates a file in
> > /var/cache/apt/archives/partial/ containing the contents of the cdrom.
> > 
> > [1] http://sources.debian.net/src/apt/1.4~rc2/apt-pkg/cdrom.cc/
> > [2] http://sources.debian.net/src/apt/1.4~rc2/apt-pkg/indexcopy.cc/
> > 
> > 
> > So, in summary, I think you need /etc/apt/sources.list, /var/lib/apt *AND*
> > /var/cache/apt/archives.
> 
> Suppose /var/cache/apt/archives is empty because 'apt-get clean' has
> been run. What then?

Good point. I noticed that the two .bin files in /var/cache/apt/ that
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00722.html
mentioned, come and go with apt-get update and clean respectively.
I had overlooked how ephemeral they are. They're built from scratch at
the "Reading package lists... Done" line after the Fetched line.

If your only sources are the DVDs then I can't see a problem with just
adding those files (or whatever the names are of any files that
appear—they could differ with apt-cdrom) to your list of files you
(OP) share between systems. It's tricky to check what's actually
in them as they're binary databases (what I called "hidden"
information previously).

Cheers,
David.

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#179301 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On 2017-03-24, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Good point. I noticed that the two .bin files in /var/cache/apt/ that
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00722.html
> mentioned, come and go with apt-get update and clean respectively.
> I had overlooked how ephemeral they are. They're built from scratch at
> the "Reading package lists... Done" line after the Fetched line.

> If your only sources are the DVDs then I can't see a problem with just
> adding those files (or whatever the names are of any files that
> appear—they could differ with apt-cdrom) to your list of files you
> (OP) share between systems. It's tricky to check what's actually
> in them as they're binary databases (what I called "hidden"
> information previously).
>

Actually, srcpkgcache.bin includes the information contained in the files
in /var/lib/apt/lists; that is, all the info you obtain from the internet
via your deb and deb-src lines -- this information changes only on
apt-get update.

pkgcache.bin caches the information in srcpkgcache.bin + the information
extracted from the apt and dpkg status files. This info changes on every
install/remove done by apt or directly by dpkg.

The above scandalously pilfered from David Kalnischkies here:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=566275

You can run 'strings' on pkgcache.bin BTW.

curty@einstein:/var/cache/apt$ strings pkgcache.bin | less

Standard .deb
amd64
/var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_wheezy_main_binary-amd64_Packages
httpredir.debian.org
Debian Package Index
0~r11863-2
games
0ad-data
0~r11863
0~r11863-2
gamin
libboost-signals1.49.0
1.49.0-1
libc6
2.11
libcurl3-gnutls
<etc>

It doesn't appear that tricky.

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#179333 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Sat 25 Mar 2017 at 10:50:50 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> Actually, srcpkgcache.bin includes the information contained in the files
> in /var/lib/apt/lists; that is, all the info you obtain from the internet
> via your deb and deb-src lines -- this information changes only on
> apt-get update.
> 
> pkgcache.bin caches the information in srcpkgcache.bin + the information
> extracted from the apt and dpkg status files. This info changes on every
> install/remove done by apt or directly by dpkg.
> 
> The above scandalously pilfered from David Kalnischkies here:
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=566275

Thanks for the useful reference. Whether it ties in to what apt-cdrom
does, I don't know and have no way of testing.

> You can run 'strings' on pkgcache.bin BTW.
> 
> curty@einstein:/var/cache/apt$ strings pkgcache.bin | less
> 
> Standard .deb
> amd64
> /var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_wheezy_main_binary-amd64_Packages
> httpredir.debian.org
> Debian Package Index
> 0~r11863-2
> games
> 0ad-data
> 0~r11863
> 0~r11863-2
> gamin
> libboost-signals1.49.0
> 1.49.0-1
> libc6
> 2.11
> libcurl3-gnutls
> <etc>
> 
> It doesn't appear that tricky.

What doesn't?

Getting a ¼million-line output file is straightforward, but
have you tried to interpret it? What do you think it shows?

Cheers,
David.

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#179354 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On 2017-03-25, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat 25 Mar 2017 at 10:50:50 (+0000), Curt wrote:
>> Actually, srcpkgcache.bin includes the information contained in the files
>> in /var/lib/apt/lists; that is, all the info you obtain from the internet
>> via your deb and deb-src lines -- this information changes only on
>> apt-get update.
>> 
>> pkgcache.bin caches the information in srcpkgcache.bin + the information
>> extracted from the apt and dpkg status files. This info changes on every
>> install/remove done by apt or directly by dpkg.
>> 
>> The above scandalously pilfered from David Kalnischkies here:
>> 
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=566275
>
> Thanks for the useful reference. Whether it ties in to what apt-cdrom
> does, I don't know and have no way of testing.

It ties in to the context that you snipped; i.e. "the two .bin files in
/var/cache/apt" and how you found it "tricky to check what's actually
in them."

Well, maybe it is tricky to "check" but not to know what's in those two
files (if we can depend on the other David), a distinction that may not
be of much use or significance.

>> You can run 'strings' on pkgcache.bin BTW.
>> 
>> curty@einstein:/var/cache/apt$ strings pkgcache.bin | less
>> 
>> Standard .deb
>> amd64
>> /var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_wheezy_main_binary-amd64_Packages
>> httpredir.debian.org
>> Debian Package Index
>> 0~r11863-2
>> games
>> 0ad-data
>> 0~r11863
>> 0~r11863-2
>> gamin
>> libboost-signals1.49.0
>> 1.49.0-1
>> libc6
>> 2.11
>> libcurl3-gnutls
>> <etc>
>> 
>> It doesn't appear that tricky.
>
> What doesn't?
>
> Getting a ¼million-line output file is straightforward, but
> have you tried to interpret it? What do you think it shows?
>

Package names, versions, 'Description-md5' as far as I can tell is what
is "actually" and obviously contained in the file, verifiable with very
little effort via 'strings', beyond that I ain't gonna go because I have
other things to do. Sorry I'm writing the story of my life and there are
many many chapters.


-- 
"It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the
far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs.
Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To
the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.

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#179510 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Sun 26 Mar 2017 at 11:31:57 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> On 2017-03-25, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sat 25 Mar 2017 at 10:50:50 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> >> Actually, srcpkgcache.bin includes the information contained in the files
> >> in /var/lib/apt/lists; that is, all the info you obtain from the internet
> >> via your deb and deb-src lines -- this information changes only on
> >> apt-get update.
> >> 
> >> pkgcache.bin caches the information in srcpkgcache.bin + the information
> >> extracted from the apt and dpkg status files. This info changes on every
> >> install/remove done by apt or directly by dpkg.
> >> 
> >> The above scandalously pilfered from David Kalnischkies here:
> >> 
> >> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=566275
> >
> > Thanks for the useful reference. Whether it ties in to what apt-cdrom
> > does, I don't know and have no way of testing.
> 
> It ties in to the context that you snipped; i.e. "the two .bin files in
> /var/cache/apt" and how you found it "tricky to check what's actually
> in them."
> 
> Well, maybe it is tricky to "check" but not to know what's in those two
> files (if we can depend on the other David), a distinction that may not
> be of much use or significance.
> 
> >> You can run 'strings' on pkgcache.bin BTW.
> >> 
> >> curty@einstein:/var/cache/apt$ strings pkgcache.bin | less
[...]
> >> It doesn't appear that tricky.
> >
> > What doesn't?
> >
> > Getting a ¼million-line output file is straightforward, but
> > have you tried to interpret it? What do you think it shows?
> >
> 
> Package names, versions, 'Description-md5' as far as I can tell is what
> is "actually" and obviously contained in the file, verifiable with very
> little effort via 'strings',

Yes, one might expect items like this in a file maintained by apt!
You can also see from the head of the file that the most of the
"versions" are not the versions of the packages but are actually
constraints, ie dependencies/replacements/breakages etc. all just
jumbled up.

Within this jumble, I think it would be difficult to unambiguously
locate information that was specific to apt-cdrom or synaptic, were
either of these to add information not covered by your reference.

$ ls -l /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin 
... 22531192 Mar 27 21:00 /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin
$ strings /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin | wc -c
3655511
$ 
so the output of strings amounts to about 16% which means that
84% could be "hiding" other information from our eyes.

I've never looked at (let alone examined) these files after scanning
CDs with synaptic (assuming these same filenames are used), so I have
no idea whether they contain the same information as apt-get update
writes, or more. And as for what   man apt-cdrom   means by
"correcting for several possible mis-burns", I have no idea.

> beyond that I ain't gonna go because I have
> other things to do. Sorry I'm writing the story of my life and there are
> many many chapters.

I'm sorry too. And for causing a disturbance.

Cheers,
David.

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#179535 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On 2017-03-28, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun 26 Mar 2017 at 11:31:57 (+0000), Curt wrote:
>> On 2017-03-25, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On Sat 25 Mar 2017 at 10:50:50 (+0000), Curt wrote:
>> >> Actually, srcpkgcache.bin includes the information contained in the files
>> >> in /var/lib/apt/lists; that is, all the info you obtain from the internet
>> >> via your deb and deb-src lines -- this information changes only on
>> >> apt-get update.
>> >> 
>> >> pkgcache.bin caches the information in srcpkgcache.bin + the information
>> >> extracted from the apt and dpkg status files. This info changes on every
>> >> install/remove done by apt or directly by dpkg.
>> >> 
> You can also see from the head of the file that the most of the
> "versions" are not the versions of the packages but are actually
> constraints, ie dependencies/replacements/breakages etc. all just
> jumbled up.

Well, I actually checked further down than the head (let's refer to it
as the body) and I did systematically discover version and package
names, so I think the output is more coherent than you're letting on but
who cares?  We know what is in those files (thank you David #1--yes I'm
relegating you to David #2, sorry). That is the point of my post in the
first place. It is not true what you posited, that it is tricky to know
what those files contain. We know (although it is not documented in the
man page(s) because people in the know figure these descriptions too
low-level for mortals like us. Maybe therein lies the trickiness.

> Within this jumble, I think it would be difficult to unambiguously
> locate information that was specific to apt-cdrom or synaptic, were
> either of these to add information not covered by your reference.
>
> $ ls -l /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin 
> ... 22531192 Mar 27 21:00 /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin
> $ strings /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin | wc -c
> 3655511
> $ 
> so the output of strings amounts to about 16% which means that
> 84% could be "hiding" other information from our eyes.
>
> I've never looked at (let alone examined) these files after scanning
> CDs with synaptic (assuming these same filenames are used), so I have
> no idea whether they contain the same information as apt-get update
> writes, or more. And as for what   man apt-cdrom   means by
> "correcting for several possible mis-burns", I have no idea.

They contain exactly what David #1 said they did, I assume, as I have no
good reason not to believe him (given that he's a bona fide authority on
the matter in his role as an APT contributor).

But in the context of the OP why you couldn't copy the two files from
the first machine after the cds had been scanned and then copy them back
to the second machine in order to avoid rescanning I don't know.

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#179548 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Tue 28 Mar 2017 at 16:10:57 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> On 2017-03-28, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sun 26 Mar 2017 at 11:31:57 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> >> On 2017-03-25, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> >> > On Sat 25 Mar 2017 at 10:50:50 (+0000), Curt wrote:
> >> >> Actually, srcpkgcache.bin includes the information contained in the files
> >> >> in /var/lib/apt/lists; that is, all the info you obtain from the internet
> >> >> via your deb and deb-src lines -- this information changes only on
> >> >> apt-get update.
> >> >> 
> >> >> pkgcache.bin caches the information in srcpkgcache.bin + the information
> >> >> extracted from the apt and dpkg status files. This info changes on every
> >> >> install/remove done by apt or directly by dpkg.
> >> >> 
> > You can also see from the head of the file that the most of the
> > "versions" are not the versions of the packages but are actually
> > constraints, ie dependencies/replacements/breakages etc. all just
> > jumbled up.
> 
> Well, I actually checked further down than the head (let's refer to it
> as the body) and I did systematically discover version and package
> names, so I think the output is more coherent than you're letting on but
> who cares?  We know what is in those files (thank you David #1--yes I'm
> relegating you to David #2, sorry). That is the point of my post in the
> first place. It is not true what you posited, that it is tricky to know
> what those files contain.

Well, I have _not_ looked further than the head, and I'm also unable
to look at amd64 on wheezy, but i386 will do for my purpose.
Here's your post again:

curty@einstein:/var/cache/apt$ strings pkgcache.bin | less

Standard .deb
amd64
/var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_wheezy_main_binary-amd64_Packages
httpredir.debian.org
Debian Package Index
0~r11863-2
games
0ad-data
0~r11863
0~r11863-2
gamin
libboost-signals1.49.0
1.49.0-1
libc6
2.11
libcurl3-gnutls
<etc>

and here's the i386 equivalent of where it originates:

Package: 0ad
Version: 0~r11863-2
Installed-Size: 7745
Maintainer: Debian Games Team
<pkg-games-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org>
Architecture: i386
Depends: 0ad-data (>= 0~r11863), 0ad-data (<= 0~r11863-2), gamin |
fam, libboost-signals1.49.0 (>= 1.49.0-1), libc6 (>= 2.11),
libcurl3-gnutls (>= 7.16.2), libenet1a, libgamin0 | libfam0,
libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libgl1-mesa-glx | libgl1, libjpeg8 (>= 8c),
libmozjs185-1.0 (>= 1.8.5-1.0.0+dfsg), libnvtt2, libopenal1,
libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.13-4), libsdl1.2debian (>= 1.2.11),
libstdc++6 (>= 4.6), libvorbisfile3 (>= 1.1.2), libwxbase2.8-0 (>= 2.8.12.1),
libwxgtk2.8-0 (>= 2.8.12.1), libx11-6, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2),
libxml2 (>= 2.7.4), zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.0)
Pre-Depends: dpkg (>= 1.15.6~)
Description: Real-time strategy game of ancient warfare
Homepage: http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/
Description-md5: d943033bedada21853d2ae54a2578a7b
Tag: game::strategy, implemented-in::c++, interface::x11,
role::program,
 uitoolkit::sdl, uitoolkit::wxwidgets, use::gameplaying,
 x11::application
Section: games
Priority: optional
Filename: pool/main/0/0ad/0ad_0~r11863-2_i386.deb
Size: 2226038
MD5sum: 93699f007bcd8a51e1ab5fba2ecdc400
SHA1: 602e20176706d3cc7535f01ffdbe91b270ae5012
SHA256:
2b092f5682ae14351d6f7e47a7c113b7c0cc9ec71046a2e3ecf95eb453909ad8

Now you can see why these two lines appear in your post:

libc6
2.11

but you won't find version 2.11 on you system (unless you're running
aqueeze); you've got 2.13. So when you venture further into the body
of your strings file, and you come across

package-name
version

how are you going to know whether it's the version of a package,
or just some casual mention under one of the other headings?
You call that coherence?

> We know (although it is not documented in the
> man page(s) because people in the know figure these descriptions too
> low-level for mortals like us. Maybe therein lies the trickiness.

No, the trickiness is because it's binary: it's organised for the
computer and disorganised for us humans.

> > Within this jumble, I think it would be difficult to unambiguously
> > locate information that was specific to apt-cdrom or synaptic, were
> > either of these to add information not covered by your reference.
> >
> > $ ls -l /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin 
> > ... 22531192 Mar 27 21:00 /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin
> > $ strings /var/cache/apt/srcpkgcache.bin | wc -c
> > 3655511
> > $ 
> > so the output of strings amounts to about 16% which means that
> > 84% could be "hiding" other information from our eyes.
> >
> > I've never looked at (let alone examined) these files after scanning
> > CDs with synaptic (assuming these same filenames are used), so I have
> > no idea whether they contain the same information as apt-get update
> > writes, or more. And as for what   man apt-cdrom   means by
> > "correcting for several possible mis-burns", I have no idea.
> 
> They contain exactly what David #1 said they did, I assume, as I have no
> good reason not to believe him (given that he's a bona fide authority on
> the matter in his role as an APT contributor).

My apologies for not searching the interweb and finding this before
writing my post. But it still assumes that that's _all_ the file
contains. The post doesn't talk about apt-cdrom's actions at all,
let alone synaptic, and I haven't got either of those to run tests with.

> But in the context of the OP why you couldn't copy the two files from
> the first machine after the cds had been scanned and then copy them back
> to the second machine in order to avoid rescanning I don't know.

"To avoid rescanning" begs the question. The OP wants to know which
other files are necessary to copy, and maintains that the ones in
/var/lib/apt are not sufficient. Suckers like me are casting round
for other possibilities. The last place I saw my Debian DVDs
is already mentioned in the thread: "[they] could still be hanging
from threads in the vegetable plot, scaring the birds." All I can do
is make qualified suggestions for the OP to try out. Is that OK?

Cheers,
David.

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#179581 — Re: An INCOMPLETE solution - was [Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?]

On Tue 28 Mar 2017 at 16:10:57 +0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2017-03-28, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > 84% could be "hiding" other information from our eyes.
> >
> > I've never looked at (let alone examined) these files after scanning
> > CDs with synaptic (assuming these same filenames are used), so I have
> > no idea whether they contain the same information as apt-get update
> > writes, or more. And as for what   man apt-cdrom   means by
> > "correcting for several possible mis-burns", I have no idea.
> 
> They contain exactly what David #1 said they did, I assume, as I have no
> good reason not to believe him (given that he's a bona fide authority on
> the matter in his role as an APT contributor).
> 
> But in the context of the OP why you couldn't copy the two files from
> the first machine after the cds had been scanned and then copy them back
> to the second machine in order to avoid rescanning I don't know.

You've never tried or tested this, have you? Which is why you do not
know.

We have the OP claiming there is missing information. No indication
whatsoever of what this information is and absolutely no indication
of why it is thought there is anything extra to transfer. Not a hint,
not a whisper, not a clue.

We may as well be looking for the lost chord.

-- 
Brian.

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