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Groups > linux.debian.user > #183048 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-07-03 22:40 +0200 |
| Last post | 2017-07-09 15:30 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 80 — 32 participants |
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Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-03 22:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 00:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jason Wittlin-Cohen <jwittlincohen@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 02:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-07-04 07:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-07-04 20:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 00:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 01:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2017-07-05 03:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 14:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2017-07-05 10:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 10:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 17:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jim Ohlstein <jim@mailman-hosting.com> - 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 07:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com> - 2017-07-05 16:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 16:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 23:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd chris <tknchris@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 00:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 06:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-03 23:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 15:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 16:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
Re: Re: Replace systemd Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2017-07-07 05:40 +0200
Re: Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2017-07-06 15:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 07:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2017-07-03 23:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-05 01:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-05 04:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 15:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 01:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 12:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 18:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 22:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 00:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-07 16:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 18:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-07 23:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-07-07 21:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-05 17:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-05 18:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-05 19:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 05:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:00 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-07-06 14:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd JPlews <jw@plews.org.uk> - 2017-07-06 16:20 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 15:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 11:40 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 02:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd David Griffith <dave@661.org> - 2017-07-06 05:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2017-07-06 07:10 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Ansgar Burchardt <"Ansgar Burchardt"@43-1.org> - 2017-07-06 08:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-07-06 10:30 +0200
Re: Replace systemd The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2017-07-06 14:10 +0200
And the UNasked questions are? - was [Re: Replace systemd] Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2017-07-06 11:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2017-07-09 13:50 +0200
Re: Replace systemd "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2017-07-09 15:30 +0200
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| From | Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-03 22:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Replace systemd |
| Message-ID | <tZgit-6Gt-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
I run Debian on my laptops and several servers. On my laptop I've had several recent occasions when it has been irksome to try and find the cause of a service not starting or shutting down, and I've concluded that I'd like to move away from systemd as I don't like the binary log. This isn't a conceptual/design issue as I don't know enough of init fundamentals to make an informed judgement. It also isn't related to the recent Slashdot article about DNS crashes and root privs escalation. https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/0343258/severe-systemd-bug-allowed-remote-code-execution-for-two-years or the (possibly incorrectly reported) statements by Lennart Poettering noted at "What are the pros/cons of Upstart and systemd?" https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/5877/what-are-the-pros-cons-of-upstart-and-systemd I additionally find the configuration and documentation off-putting. These are trivial points, but the classic /etc config files seem to be being replaced with ini style files with non-explicit defaults. The documentation is wordy and also sometimes obtuse. e.g. "To disable a configuration file supplied by the vendor, the recommended way is to place a symlink to /dev/null in the configuration directory" and repeated references to "vendors" (which is almost certainly the wrong word). Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. Is there a pure Debian alternative? Thanks Rory
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| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZgBP-6MZ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183048 |
On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 08:42:11PM +0100, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote: > Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use > an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My > laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. > > Is there a pure Debian alternative? You may switch to one of the other init systems. Assuming stretch (Debian 9): To use sysvinit, simply "apt-get install sysvinit-core" and reboot. To use runit, "apt-get install runit-systemd", reboot, "apt-get install runit-init", and reboot again.
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| From | Michael Fothergill <michael.fothergill@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-04 00:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZhHA-7Go-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183050 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On 3 July 2017 at 21:39, Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 08:42:11PM +0100, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote: > > Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use > > an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My > > laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. > > > > Is there a pure Debian alternative? > > You may switch to one of the other init systems. Assuming stretch > (Debian 9): > > To use sysvinit, simply "apt-get install sysvinit-core" and reboot. > I am greatly humbled by the serene unflappable way that you made this suggestion...... As the Buddha said: Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one — himself. Would that I could learn to walk in such company. MF > To use runit, "apt-get install runit-systemd", reboot, "apt-get install > runit-init", and reboot again. > >
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| From | Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-04 00:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZi0V-7N4-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183050 |
On Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:39:26 -0400 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 08:42:11PM +0100, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote: > > Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to > > use an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use > > Windows. My laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. > > > > Is there a pure Debian alternative? > > You may switch to one of the other init systems. Assuming stretch > (Debian 9): > > To use sysvinit, simply "apt-get install sysvinit-core" and reboot. > > To use runit, "apt-get install runit-systemd", reboot, "apt-get > install runit-init", and reboot again. > I can verify both these work. I've been running two versions of Stretch in VirtualBox on a Wheezy host. No problems. I even added runit supervision to the sysvinit one, and it works without problems. Didn't remove anything systemd. Just left it for dependenies. Both new inits survive update/upgrades even if systemd components are upgraded. B
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| From | Jason Wittlin-Cohen <jwittlincohen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-04 02:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZjT3-zm-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183050 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
I assume this will work fine for a server system, but will it work on a desktop system using GNOME? From what I've read, GNOME has several systemd dependencies, but it's not clear to me whether this requires systemd to be used as init, or merely that systemd's packages must be installed. Also, the future of sysvinit in Debian is not clear. I've done some research and one particular Debian developer claims that there is no plan to support sysvinit as of Stretch, declaring that systemd is the only option as of Stretch [1]. However, a different source [2] indicates that there are several developers maintaining sysvinit currently. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/3x8ef1/what_is_the_status_of_init_independency_in_stretch/cy2olz2/ [2] http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 08:42:11PM +0100, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote: > > Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use > > an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My > > laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. > > > > Is there a pure Debian alternative? > > You may switch to one of the other init systems. Assuming stretch > (Debian 9): > > To use sysvinit, simply "apt-get install sysvinit-core" and reboot. > > To use runit, "apt-get install runit-systemd", reboot, "apt-get install > runit-init", and reboot again. > >
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| From | Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-04 07:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZo6l-3kU-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183072 |
Hi, On 07/04/2017 02:06 AM, Jason Wittlin-Cohen wrote: > I assume this will work fine for a server system, but will it work on > a desktop system using GNOME? From what I've read, GNOME has several > systemd dependencies, but it's not clear to me whether this requires > systemd to be used as init, or merely that systemd's packages must be > installed. For both Jessie and Stretch, the following holds true: - GNOME requires systmed-logind's interfaces to work. (Or any alternative that implements the same DBus interface, but none exist in Debian at the moment) - systemd-logind is part of the 'systemd' package, that must be instaled. - systemd-logind requires DBus methods of systemd, so you will either need systemd running ss init system (the 'systemd-sysv' package) _OR_ an alternative implementation of these interfaces to make logind work on non-systemd systems - the 'systemd-shim' package provides an alternative implementation of the interfaces required by systemd-logind so that it may be used on non-systemd systems - this means that you can indeed run GNOME without systemd as the init system (i.e. without the 'systemd-sysv' package) on Jessie and Stretch, if you have both the 'systemd' and 'systemd-shim' packages installed - however, there will be some slight degradation in some corner cases of functionality For the future (Buster and onwards), note that this all hinges on systemd-shim continuing to implement the required interfaces to make systemd-logind work _or_ someone writing and packaging and alternative to systemd-logind that provides the same DBus interfaces. It is currently not completely clear whether either of these is going to happen: there is no alternative to logind packaged (I know some people have been working on an alternative that implements the same DBus interfaces, but I don't know the status of that) and systemd-shim is currently an orphaned package (both upstream and in Debian), so it's unclear how well supported this is going to remain. (Of course, if there are no significant changes between how systemd and logind talk to each other, this might not be an issue at all, because stuff that currently works will continue working.) Regards, Christian
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-04 20:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZAqS-3ou-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183078 |
Christian Seiler wrote: > For both Jessie and Stretch, the following holds true: > > - GNOME requires systmed-logind's interfaces to work. (Or any > alternative that implements the same DBus interface, but none > exist in Debian at the moment) + one reason no to use Gnome
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| From | Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 00:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZEut-61x-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183134 |
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 19:51:39 +0200 deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote: > Christian Seiler wrote: > > > For both Jessie and Stretch, the following holds true: > > > > - GNOME requires systmed-logind's interfaces to work. (Or any > > alternative that implements the same DBus interface, but none > > exist in Debian at the moment) > > + one reason no to use Gnome > My thoughts exactly. I stopped using GNOME or any desktop environment 5+ years ago. Resource hogs.. A window manager, a single panel and a couple virtual terminals are more than sufficient. B
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| From | Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 01:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZFgS-6y4-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183149 |
On 07/04/2017 03:11 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 19:51:39 +0200 deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Christian Seiler wrote: >> >>> For both Jessie and Stretch, the following holds true: >>> >>> - GNOME requires systmed-logind's interfaces to work. (Or any >>> alternative that implements the same DBus interface, but none >>> exist in Debian at the moment) >> >> + one reason no to use Gnome >> > > My thoughts exactly. I stopped using GNOME or any desktop environment > 5+ years ago. Resource hogs.. A window manager, a single panel and a > couple virtual terminals are more than sufficient. > > B Funny, that sounds like something a Slack'er would say. Patrick, we are not all keyboard wizards like you and that other Patrick who can keyboard faster than I can read. That's a compliment on your abilities by the way. -- Jimmy Johnson Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda5 Registered Linux User #380263
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| From | John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 03:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZGPD-7pf-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183153 |
Jimmy Johnson writes: > Funny, that sounds like something a Slack'er would say. Patrick, we > are not all keyboard wizards like you and that other Patrick who can > keyboard faster than I can read. That's a compliment on your abilities > by the way. Gnome or the Slacker way are not the only alternatives. I use FVWM with four desktops with 16 panels each. Unlike Gnome, FVWM is infinitely customizeable and does not have thousands of baffling dependencies. -- John Hasler jhasler@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
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| From | SDA <marathon.durandal@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 14:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZRrH-67q-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183158 |
On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 07:33:25PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: > Jimmy Johnson writes: > > Funny, that sounds like something a Slack'er would say. Patrick, we > > are not all keyboard wizards like you and that other Patrick who can > > keyboard faster than I can read. That's a compliment on your abilities > > by the way. > > Gnome or the Slacker way are not the only alternatives. I use FVWM with > four desktops with 16 panels each. Unlike Gnome, FVWM is infinitely > customizeable and does not have thousands of baffling dependencies. Be sweet to see a screen grab of that, John. :-)
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| From | Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 04:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZIeK-8tY-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183153 |
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 15:56:06 -0700 Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> wrote: > On 07/04/2017 03:11 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 19:51:39 +0200 deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Christian Seiler wrote: > >> > >>> For both Jessie and Stretch, the following holds true: > >>> > >>> - GNOME requires systmed-logind's interfaces to work. (Or any > >>> alternative that implements the same DBus interface, but none > >>> exist in Debian at the moment) > >> > >> + one reason no to use Gnome > >> > > > > My thoughts exactly. I stopped using GNOME or any desktop > > environment 5+ years ago. Resource hogs.. A window manager, a > > single panel and a couple virtual terminals are more than > > sufficient. > > > > B > > Funny, that sounds like something a Slack'er would say. Patrick, we > are not all keyboard wizards like you and that other Patrick who can > keyboard faster than I can read. That's a compliment on your > abilities by the way. I'm far from a wizard on the keyboard or a terminal I'm just as lazy as the next guy, but I'm also a minimalist. And a window manager and a panel is all the GUI I need. In reality, it's all anybody needs. Desktop environments are just so much eye candy, but they get installed by default and that's what people are used to. Doesn't bother me as long as I get to choose the interface I want. And FWIW, I used Slackware for a couple years a dozen years ago. But I've used a lot of Linux distros over the past 17 years as well as the 4 or 5 major desktop environments. Why not try a window manager and a panel? It's not that hard to master. And your system will be noticeably snappier. I suggest starting with Openbox as the manager and LXPanel. That's what I use. If you've got LXDE installed, both are already installed. Just choose Openbox at login. But RTFM first. B
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| From | Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 10:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZNo5-3oo-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183161 |
On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 07:08:03PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > Why not try a window manager and a panel? I'm so far behind the times[1]... What's a "panel" in this context? [1] I still use WindowMaker for my desktop. -- Dave Sherohman
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 10:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZNR8-3Oe-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183171 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 02:38:23AM -0500, Dave Sherohman wrote: > On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 07:08:03PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > Why not try a window manager and a panel? > > I'm so far behind the times[1]... What's a "panel" in this context? This is typically a small area of the screen where you keep icons for applications, system state displays (battery, speaker, what not) and other garden gnomes & paraphernalia. Something giving you the illusion that you are in control. Cheers - -- tomás -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAllcneUACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYa3ACfQysVriCBo4pr7uTPOwxbBlBB ccQAn3suw+YAGKgXkAy18Aha617Y0z7W =N+q9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 15:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZSe6-6Cw-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183149 |
On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 03:11:05PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: >My thoughts exactly. I stopped using GNOME or any desktop environment >5+ years ago. Resource hogs.. A window manager, a single panel and a >couple virtual terminals are more than sufficient. What's good enough for you is not necessarily good enough for everyone else. I likewise am very comfortable in a Terminal, however, many aren't. Furthermore, there are nowadays lots of other bits and pieces that are very useful in a session (a dbus daemon, a GPG and SSH keyrings, a power manager and/or screensaver, network manager applets, file sync tools, disk mount managers, etc.); you may not need these, or may be happy to effectively assemble a form of a desktop environment from scratch, but some people are happy to delegate that job to others. (I am currently shopping for a desktop session manager) -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-06 02:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u02n8-4Gm-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183192 |
On Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:53:10 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 03:11:05PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > >My thoughts exactly. I stopped using GNOME or any desktop > >environment 5+ years ago. Resource hogs.. A window manager, a > >single panel and a couple virtual terminals are more than sufficient. > > What's good enough for you is not necessarily good enough for > everyone else. I likewise am very comfortable in a Terminal, however, > many aren't. Furthermore, there are nowadays lots of other bits and > pieces that are very useful in a session (a dbus daemon, a GPG and > SSH keyrings, a power manager and/or screensaver, network manager > applets, file sync tools, disk mount managers, etc.); you may not > need these, or may be happy to effectively assemble a form of a > desktop environment from scratch, but some people are happy to > delegate that job to others. All that can be done on a window manager only system, too. Just install the utility needed, either terminal or X-based.. > (I am currently shopping for a desktop session manager) Sorry, I have no recommendations. Don't use one. ;-) B
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-06 13:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u0cPw-3uf-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183254 |
On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 04:41:42PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: >All that can be done on a window manager only system, too. Just install >the utility needed, either terminal or X-based.. You are missing the point entirely. I was not arguing it was impossible to get that functionality without using a desktop environment. I was arguing that some people *want* the desktop environment to do that for them. Of course you can DIY. But not everyone wants to. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-06 17:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u0h2N-73E-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183286 |
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:50:24 +0100 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 04:41:42PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > >All that can be done on a window manager only system, too. Just > >install the utility needed, either terminal or X-based.. > > You are missing the point entirely. I was not arguing it was > impossible to get that functionality without using a desktop > environment. I was arguing that some people *want* the desktop > environment to do that for them. Of course you can DIY. But not > everyone wants to. Yes, I misunderstood you.. Some people for whatever reasons believe window manager only GUIs are "limited" or "inferior" to desktop environments. I thought you were one, and was trying to correct that misconception. My apologies. For the record, I'm not advocating abolishing the Desktop environment. I believe in choice. As much as possible. Most people want automatic transmission. I prefer manual. To each his own. B
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| From | Rory Campbell-Lange <rory@campbell-lange.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-05 23:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <u00lj-3rk-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183050 |
On 03/07/17, Greg Wooledge (wooledg@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 08:42:11PM +0100, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote: > > Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use > > an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My > > laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. > > > > Is there a pure Debian alternative? > > You may switch to one of the other init systems. Assuming stretch > (Debian 9): > > To use sysvinit, simply "apt-get install sysvinit-core" and reboot. > > To use runit, "apt-get install runit-systemd", reboot, "apt-get install > runit-init", and reboot again. For some reason I couldn't get my i3 wm to work with sysvinit-core. Am trying runit and so far so good. Thank you for the tips.
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| From | Jim Ohlstein <jim@mailman-hosting.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-07-03 23:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tZgBP-6MZ-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #183048 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Hello, On 07/03/2017 03:42 PM, Rory Campbell-Lange wrote: > I run Debian on my laptops and several servers. > > On my laptop I've had several recent occasions when it has been irksome > to try and find the cause of a service not starting or shutting down, > and I've concluded that I'd like to move away from systemd as I don't > like the binary log. > > This isn't a conceptual/design issue as I don't know enough of init > fundamentals to make an informed judgement. It also isn't related to the > recent Slashdot article about DNS crashes and root privs escalation. > https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/0343258/severe-systemd-bug-allowed-remote-code-execution-for-two-years > or the (possibly incorrectly reported) statements by Lennart Poettering > noted at "What are the pros/cons of Upstart and systemd?" > https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/5877/what-are-the-pros-cons-of-upstart-and-systemd > > I additionally find the configuration and documentation off-putting. > These are trivial points, but the classic /etc config files seem to be > being replaced with ini style files with non-explicit defaults. The > documentation is wordy and also sometimes obtuse. e.g. "To disable a > configuration file supplied by the vendor, the recommended way is to > place a symlink to /dev/null in the configuration directory" and > repeated references to "vendors" (which is almost certainly the wrong > word). > > Simply put; systemd doesn't suit me. Its a bit like being asked to use > an graphical editor instead of vi. Or being forced to use Windows. My > laptop doesn't feel like my machine anymore. > > Is there a pure Debian alternative? Have a look at https://devuan.org/. -- Jim Ohlstein Professional Mailman Hosting https://mailman-hosting.com
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