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Apt Question

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  Apt Question Michael Milliman <michael.e.milliman@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 23:10 +0200
    Re: Apt Question songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-05-23 01:10 +0200
      Re: Apt Question Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-05-23 11:00 +0200
        Re: Apt Question Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-05-23 14:00 +0200
          Re: Apt Question Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-05-23 15:30 +0200
            Re: Apt Question <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-05-23 15:50 +0200
              Re: Apt Question Michael Milliman <michael.e.milliman@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:30 +0200
        Re: Apt Question Michael Milliman <michael.e.milliman@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:30 +0200

#181259 — Apt Question

I have, for various reasons, the repositories from stable (Jessie),
stretch, and sid in my sources.list file. I have Stretch installed and
have it running for some time.  On occasion, there is a bug in Stretch
and I revert to the stable version of the package until the bug gets
worked out.  I also, on occasion, use a more advanced version of the
package and get it from sid (with a careful look at the proposed changes
to the system when doing so).  I have set synaptic to prefer the Stretch
distribution.  However, when I reload, and tell synaptic to mark all
upgrades, it marks upgrades which it will pull from sid.  Is there a way
to tell synaptic to ignore those upgrades, while allowing me to manually
install them should I wish to do so?  I had thought that telling
synaptic to prefer the Stretch distribution would have handled that, but
I guess not.  I figure I'm just missing something.
-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

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#181266

Michael Milliman wrote:
> I have, for various reasons, the repositories from stable (Jessie),
> stretch, and sid in my sources.list file. I have Stretch installed and
> have it running for some time.  On occasion, there is a bug in Stretch
> and I revert to the stable version of the package until the bug gets
> worked out.  I also, on occasion, use a more advanced version of the
> package and get it from sid (with a careful look at the proposed changes
> to the system when doing so).  I have set synaptic to prefer the Stretch
> distribution.  However, when I reload, and tell synaptic to mark all
> upgrades, it marks upgrades which it will pull from sid.  Is there a way
> to tell synaptic to ignore those upgrades, while allowing me to manually
> install them should I wish to do so?  I had thought that telling
> synaptic to prefer the Stretch distribution would have handled that, but
> I guess not.  I figure I'm just missing something.

  it seems to follow the version once you've
upgraded from a different repository.

  you can always uncheck the apt lines for stretch,
and sid in the Settings -> Repositories and then do 
an update to reload.  then that will show you only
the versions available in Jessie.  then any versions
you have upgraded beyond Jessie will show up as
Installed (local or obsolete) in the Status selection.


  songbird

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#181271

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Apt Question
UTC Time: May 22, 2017 11:02 PM
From: songbird@anthive.com

Michael Milliman wrote:
> I have, for various reasons, the repositories from stable (Jessie),
> stretch, and sid in my sources.list file. I have Stretch installed and
> have it running for some time. On occasion, there is a bug in Stretch
> and I revert to the stable version of the package until the bug gets
> worked out. I also, on occasion, use a more advanced version of the
> package and get it from sid (with a careful look at the proposed changes
> to the system when doing so). I have set synaptic to prefer the Stretch
> distribution. However, when I reload, and tell synaptic to mark all
> upgrades, it marks upgrades which it will pull from sid. Is there a way
> to tell synaptic to ignore those upgrades, while allowing me to manually
> install them should I wish to do so? I had thought that telling
> synaptic to prefer the Stretch distribution would have handled that, but
> I guess not. I figure I'm just missing something.

you can always uncheck the apt lines for stretch,
and sid in the Settings -> Repositories and then do
an update to reload. then that will show you only
the versions available in Jessie. then any versions
you have upgraded beyond Jessie will show up as
Installed (local or obsolete) in the Status selection.

I don't know, I am not being sarcastic, is this really good practice? If he is already running a sid linux kernel and some other core packages by switching to jessie he will be stuck with those packages almost indefinitely, if the system doesn't eventually break due to inconsistencies. Meanwhile any security and important updates in jessie will not apply to all those testing and unstable till their version gets superseded, and if ever. Let's say he has linux 4.9.. on and jessie does an upgrade to 3.20, and packages in jessie are checked to all work with 3.20. Who says that their update will work with an outdated 4.9?

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#181272

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 04:57:03AM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
> Michael Milliman wrote:
> > I have, for various reasons, the repositories from stable (Jessie),
> > stretch, and sid in my sources.list file. I have Stretch installed and
> > have it running for some time.

> I don't know, I am not being sarcastic, is this really good practice?

I wouldn't advise it.  The stretch + jessie part is fine, as long as
he realizes he is running stretch, which seems to be the case.  Adding
sid binaries is not wise.  If he needs a package from post-stretch,
he should backport the sid *source* package to his stretch system.

> If he
> is already running a sid linux kernel and some other core packages by
> switching to jessie he will be stuck with those packages almost indefinitely,

He's not running jessie, nor could he "switch to jessie" if he wanted
to.  Once you've installed a single binary package from post-jessie,
there is no going back.

Likewise, once you have installed a single binary package from
post-stretch (e.g. sid), there is no going back.

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#181275

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Apt Question
UTC Time: May 23, 2017 11:54 AM
From: wooledg@eeg.ccf.org

> If he
> is already running a sid linux kernel and some other core packages by
> switching to jessie he will be stuck with those packages almost indefinitely,

He's not running jessie, nor could he "switch to jessie" if he wanted
to. Once you've installed a single binary package from post-jessie,
there is no going back.

Doesn't it relate to how essential the package is for the system to continue running? With kernels beeing completely different packages it only matters which one you use to boot from. I don't think you can completely remove systemd and reinstall it. But something non essential that would only run when you call it you can completely remove and reinstall from jessie. But I agree that once you have moved up a notch there are too many packages to replace without crashing. I've never tried it but synaptics says you can select and force from which repository to keep. I don't know whether it is possible to revert this way, I'll be trying it soon if nobody says it doesn't work.

Likewise, once you have installed a single binary package from
post-stretch (e.g. sid), there is no going back.

I don't think this is completely true and always. I remember having something that was flaky in testing and switched repositories, installed one from unstable I think, it had the same problem, I didn't updgrade anything else, completely removed, readjusted sources.list and reinstalled the current package. But it was a package the system could live without. Maybe it just happened that its dependencies in testing and unstable were the same.

(AK)

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#181277

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Hash: SHA1

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 09:23:46AM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Apt Question
> UTC Time: May 23, 2017 11:54 AM
> From: wooledg@eeg.ccf.org
> 
> > If he
> > is already running a sid linux kernel and some other core packages by
> > switching to jessie he will be stuck with those packages almost indefinitely,
> 
> He's not running jessie, nor could he "switch to jessie" if he wanted
> to. Once you've installed a single binary package from post-jessie,
> there is no going back.

That will depend... on the dependencies :)

Of course, if some package from the N+1 distro pulls in something
really fat, like, say libc, which upgrades half of your box (yes,
that's doable: my box looks a bit like that at the moment), then
your way back will be a bit... painful. But if the package has no
or very little dependencies, you just have to remember that apt
(and most probably aptitude) have a natural aversion against
downgrading packages and that you have to let them know that yes,
you actually want to do such a seemingly foolish thing.

As Paracelsus put it once, "Sola dosis facit venenum" (i.e. "It's
the dosis, stupid" ;-)

Cheers
- -- tomás
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#181280

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On 05/23/2017 08:47 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 09:23:46AM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: Apt Question
>> UTC Time: May 23, 2017 11:54 AM
>> From: wooledg@eeg.ccf.org
> 
>>> If he
>>> is already running a sid linux kernel and some other core packages by
>>> switching to jessie he will be stuck with those packages almost indefinitely,
> 
>> He's not running jessie, nor could he "switch to jessie" if he wanted
>> to. Once you've installed a single binary package from post-jessie,
>> there is no going back.
> 
> That will depend... on the dependencies :)
> 
> Of course, if some package from the N+1 distro pulls in something
> really fat, like, say libc, which upgrades half of your box (yes,
> that's doable: my box looks a bit like that at the moment), then
> your way back will be a bit... painful. 
Absolutely !! :) That's why I always check the proposed changes before
upgrading to a post-Stretch package to make sure that nothing that
drastic is going to be done.  There is a limit to how close to the edge
I will go!!  In fact, should the changes look too heavy, I also explore
going upstream and getting the source package for the newer version and
compiling it on the existing system....sometimes that will work,
sometimes it really needs the newer libraries that I suspect might break
the system.  In which case, I usually decide that bleeding edge probably
would cause too much blood loss!!
But if the package has no
> or very little dependencies, you just have to remember that apt
> (and most probably aptitude) have a natural aversion against
> downgrading packages and that you have to let them know that yes,
> you actually want to do such a seemingly foolish thing.
> 
> As Paracelsus put it once, "Sola dosis facit venenum" (i.e. "It's
> the dosis, stupid" ;-)
> 
> Cheers
> -- tomás
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

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#181279

On 05/23/2017 03:57 AM, Fungi4All wrote:
> 
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: Apt Question
>> UTC Time: May 22, 2017 11:02 PM
>> From: songbird@anthive.com
>>
>> Michael Milliman wrote:
>> > I have, for various reasons, the repositories from stable (Jessie),
>> > stretch, and sid in my sources.list file. I have Stretch installed and
>> > have it running for some time. On occasion, there is a bug in Stretch
>> > and I revert to the stable version of the package until the bug gets
>> > worked out. I also, on occasion, use a more advanced version of the
>> > package and get it from sid (with a careful look at the proposed changes
>> > to the system when doing so). I have set synaptic to prefer the Stretch
>> > distribution. However, when I reload, and tell synaptic to mark all
>> > upgrades, it marks upgrades which it will pull from sid. Is there a way
>> > to tell synaptic to ignore those upgrades, while allowing me to manually
>> > install them should I wish to do so? I had thought that telling
>> > synaptic to prefer the Stretch distribution would have handled that, but
>> > I guess not. I figure I'm just missing something.
>>
>> you can always uncheck the apt lines for stretch,
>> and sid in the Settings -> Repositories and then do
>> an update to reload. then that will show you only
>> the versions available in Jessie. then any versions
>> you have upgraded beyond Jessie will show up as
>> Installed (local or obsolete) in the Status selection.
> 
> I don't know, I am not being sarcastic, is this really good practice?
>  If he is already running a sid linux kernel and some other core
Actually, I'm running Stretch, with occasional packages reverted to
jessie distribution, and other occasional packages advanced to sid
distribution.
> packages by switching to jessie he will be stuck with those packages
> almost indefinitely, if the system doesn't eventually break due to
> inconsistencies.  Meanwhile any security and important updates in jessie
> will not apply to all those testing and unstable till their version gets
> superseded, and if ever.  Let's say he has linux 4.9.. on and jessie
> does an upgrade to 3.20, and packages in jessie are checked to all work
> with 3.20.  Who says that their update will work with an outdated 4.9?
I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that packages that run on previous
kernels (3.16 say) will continue to work under new kernels (4.9). I have
not been bitten by this as of yet, though it is always a possibility.
As far as packages advanced to Sid distribution, I make no assumptions,
I try out the package, if it works, great, if not, I can always revert
it to Stretch or Jessie.  I always inspect the changes made to the
system when installing from Sid to make sure that the changes are not
likely to break the whole system.  Again, I have not been bitten by this
as of yet, though it is probable that I will be at some time :)


-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

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