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Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt.

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  Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-09-18 21:50 +0200
    replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-02 22:30 +0200
      Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-03 01:40 +0200
        Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2016-10-03 11:40 +0200
          Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-04 06:20 +0200
        Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch Mark Fletcher <mark27q1@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 15:50 +0200
          Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-10-04 04:20 +0200
          Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-06 01:00 +0200
    Re: Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-04 09:30 +0200
      Re: Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-14 07:20 +0200
        Re: Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2016-10-15 18:10 +0200

#172401 — Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt.

Initially looked into the replaygain stuff in 2008. Don't remember what 
all was
available at the time. Remember that I looked into Sounkoverter and 
easymp3gain-gtk.
More recently have preferred easymp3gain-qt.

I'm running unstable, investigating why esaymp3gain-gtk/-qt are showing 
up in the obsolete
software list, it was removed by request. Aacgain handles MP3 files so 
that fact that
easymp3gain was removed some time ago is a non-issue, dead upstream, no 
activity since
2013 on the other hand is a big issue.

Short term I am content to keep the software installed and continue 
using it while I
investigate alternatives, but there are always the questions of 'How 
long do I really want to
keep dead software on my system' and 'How long will the software 
continue to work'.

So I am wondering what other people are using and what do you like about 
it.

One of the things I like about easymp3gain-qt is the always visible 
listing of individual tracks
that have been added and what track and album gain has been applied to 
each track. Having
that kind of file listing is a lesser issue, would like a drag and drop 
solution.

  I'm getting ready to look at qtgain.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/qtgain/

The snapshot makes it look kind of minimalistic as far as information it 
displays.

Current process when I get a new CD.

RIP with Soundjuicer, drag and drop from a filemanager to easymp3-qt to 
add the replaygain
tags, browse into the album directory if not already there, select the 
music files and use the
file managers 'open with' function to open in Musicbrainz Picard to pull 
in more complete tag
information and rename the files to '[track #] [track title].

Musicbrainz Picard does have a plug-in for replaygain, but I was not 
real happy with the way
it works, seemed a little quirky but some of that may have been whatever 
updates were
happening in unstable at the time when I looked at it.

Later, Seeker

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#173136 — replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

The story so far. On Debian unstable.

Easymp3gain was removed from Debian unstable. Settling in on 
alternatives before I remove it from my system.

Not completely against using the different *gain tools from the command 
line, but would prefer GUI.

Tried QTGain https://sourceforge.net/projects/qtgain/
Apparently from the change log it had more of an interface, but went 
back to minimal with the port to QT5.

Initially had a not previously gained mp3 file to test. After letting 
QTGain do it's thing, something seemed a little odd when looking with 
easymp3gain, the replaygain tool in Soundkonverter, and Musicbrainz 
Picard to see what replaygain information they showed.

After adding, removing, adding, removing with no issues, went back to 
QTGain a second time and after using QTGain the second time, Easymp3gain 
showed the volume at 89, instead of volume '92' and track tag '-3'.

So QTGain is out.

Generally speaking I'm leaning toward using the replaygain tool in 
Soundkonverter, looked good from my initial testing with mp3, ripped 3 
CDs and used it for them so it looks good with vorbis audio.

Where the glitch comes in is with m4a files. The replay gain tool just 
shows question marks in the track and album gain fields. Tried checking 
the box to force recalculation then clicked the 'Tag Untagged' button, 
looked like it was behaving correctly and doing the 
calculation/recalculation, still shows question marks. Easymp3gain shows 
the gain has been set.

Next found a different album of m4a files, loaded them in Easymp3gain to 
verify the tags were there, loaded them in the replaygain tool and again 
it just showed question marks.

I did also post a message in the KDE forum asking if anybody else has 
seen this behavior

https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=136507

As I write this there were 6 views, no replies.

Same question here, anybody else seeing this behavior?

Later, Seeker

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#173140 — Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

Am I the only one on the list listening to music off of my phone over 
bluetooth in the car or having some other reason to want normalized 
music playback? :O :)

On 10/2/2016 1:18 PM, Seeker wrote:

>
> Where the glitch comes in is with m4a files. The replay gain tool
> just shows question marks in the track and album gain fields. Tried
> checking the box to force recalculation then clicked the 'Tag
> Untagged' button, looked like it was behaving correctly and doing
> the calculation/recalculation, still shows question marks.
> Easymp3gain shows the gain has been set.
>
> Next found a different album of m4a files, loaded them in Easymp3gain
> to verify the tags were there, loaded them in the replaygain tool and
> again it just showed question marks.
>
> I did also post a message in the KDE forum asking if anybody else
> has seen this behavior
>
> https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=136507
>
> As I write this there were 6 views, no replies.
>
> Same question here, anybody else seeing this behavior?
>

More information.

Found some m4a files that did not have replaygain tags.

Clicking 'tag untagged' then checking at the command line

aacgain -s c *

showed no replaygain data

returning to the replaygain tool, checking the box to for recalculation,
then clicking 'tag untagged'

aacgain -s c *

shows replaygain data.

Later, Seeker

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#173144 — Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Oct 02, 2016 at 04:29:24PM -0700, Seeker wrote:
> Am I the only one on the list listening to music off of my phone over
> bluetooth in the car or having some other reason to want normalized music
> playback? :O :)

I've never used replaygain but it's on my "look at" list. Your initial
evaluation of what is available/works and what doesn't is really useful,
thanks. If it turns out the best tools at the moment are not in Debian,
then I would be interested in helping to make them so. I'll put some time
aside to re-read your messages more thoroughly, but please if you do any
further research do post it here.


Thanks

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#173173 — Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

On 10/3/2016 2:39 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 02, 2016 at 04:29:24PM -0700, Seeker wrote:
>> Am I the only one on the list listening to music off of my phone
>> over bluetooth in the car or having some other reason to want
>> normalized music playback? :O :)
>
> I've never used replaygain but it's on my "look at" list. Your
> initial evaluation of what is available/works and what doesn't is
> really useful, thanks. If it turns out the best tools at the moment
> are not in Debian, then I would be interested in helping to make them
> so. I'll put some time aside to re-read your messages more
> thoroughly, but please if you do any further research do post it
> here.
>
>
> Thanks
>

Considering how long the tools have been around and the amount of
support there is in playback software for reading the replaygain
information the options seem surprisingly limited on calculating the
gain and adding the tags.

I did find something else. Since this thread was intended to be more
specifically about Soundkonverter I will post that as a reply to my
other message.

Replaygain, alternatives to Easymp3gain-gtk/-qt
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00751.html

Later, Seeker

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#173149 — Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

On Sun, Oct 02, 2016 at 04:29:24PM -0700, Seeker wrote:
> Am I the only one on the list listening to music off of my phone over
> bluetooth in the car or having some other reason to want normalized music
> playback? :O :)
> 

No, but you are the only one top posting...

(Sorry, couldn't resist it)

I do what you said all the time, with several devices, including 
bluetooth headphones (which this list famously helped me get working) as 
well as using the phone as an audio source for the PC. I don't feel the 
need to futz around with the audio to do it.

Mark

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#173171 — Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

On Mon 03 Oct 2016 at 22:42:43 (+0900), Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 02, 2016 at 04:29:24PM -0700, Seeker wrote:
> > Am I the only one on the list listening to music off of my phone over
> > bluetooth in the car or having some other reason to want normalized music
> > playback? :O :)
> > 
> 
> No, but you are the only one top posting...
> 
> (Sorry, couldn't resist it)

Hmm. It's certainly top-posting when replies precede what they're
replies to. I don't consider making a rhetorical aside like that as
top-posting. It usefully keeps the remark apart from the facts below,
and doesn't in any way depend on it.

> I do what you said all the time, with several devices, including 
> bluetooth headphones (which this list famously helped me get working) as 
> well as using the phone as an audio source for the PC. I don't feel the 
> need to futz around with the audio to do it.

Well, setting a different volume setting for each track is about the
least futzing one can do with any sound system, which is why even the
dumbest player has a volume control. (The inability of US TV stations
to equalise their sound between programmes and adverts is staggering.)

But assuming you don't use headphones when driving (illegal in Japan,
varies in the US) then your repertoire must be different from ours.
Most post~1750 classical music makes for difficult listening in a car.
It is quite beyond my understanding why vehicle manufacturers don't
supply systems with volume-compression. One of the downsides of the
demise of vinyl is the ridiculous dynamic range used on some
modern recordings.

But that paragraph explains why track normalisation is not enough
for me. I've tried to write a function to compand on the fly with
sox, but without much success. That wouldn't work with my phone
anyway. I load all the MP3s on our gogear with companded music so that
it can be used satisfactorily in the street, but there it's just a
step in the already necessary conversion¹. My phone plays a much
greater range of source formats which I just copy onto the SD
card. Companding gigabytes of files ahead of time is a pain.

So I would be interested if my view of MP3 tags underestimates their
usefulness as a track is played, and whether there are players that
can compand/compress on the fly.

¹ timidity/ffmpeg|avconv/cdparanoia ⇉ .wavs ⇉ sox...compand...files → lame → .mp3

Cheers,
David.

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#173219 — Re: replaygain, soundkonverter, aac/m4a glitch

On 10/3/2016 6:42 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 02, 2016 at 04:29:24PM -0700, Seeker wrote:
>> Am I the only one on the list listening to music off of my phone over
>> bluetooth in the car or having some other reason to want normalized music
>> playback? :O :)
>>
>
> No, but you are the only one top posting...
>
> (Sorry, couldn't resist it)
>

I don't mind a little humor. :)

> I do what you said all the time, with several devices, including
> bluetooth headphones (which this list famously helped me get working)
> as well as using the phone as an audio source for the PC. I don't
> feel the need to futz around with the audio to do it.
>
> Mark
>

It's less of an issue for me on the computer, but it would still be nice
to have more normalized levels on the playback.

Individual experience will differ, it depends on the range of stuff you
have in your collection and listening habits, whole albums versus random
play.

The extremes in my collection between the quiet tracks and the loud
tracks are too extreme. I don't want to reduce the level of the loud
stuff excessively and I don't want to bring the level of the quiet stuff
up so much the clipping becomes an issue.

So even with normalization there will be quieter and louder stuff, but
in theory the levels will be close enough.

Some of the worst offenders were/are things that were recorded to the
computer from cassette tapes, metal oxide versus normal tape, differing
levels of tape degradation, lack of knowledge on my part on how to
compensate for some of the issues to get the best end result, etc...
Some of those have since been replaced by CD versions, others I continue
to keep an eye out for as I shop for other things.

Even without taking that into consideration there are some pretty big
extremes.

Age is probably the next biggest factor, 20s/30s, versus 40s/50s versus
60s/70s versus 80s/90s versus 2k+

Genre/style factors in as well.

For the phone, if I am wearing earbuds and have turned up the the volume
for something quiet, the loud stuff is too loud. When I am running, the
bluetooth headset volume is limited to a lower level which takes care of
the 'too loud' part, but the quiet stuff gets lost to road noise,
depending on how close to a road I am and how much traffic there is.
Over bluetooth in the car, my car is not the worst at blocking road
noise, but not great either, so quiet stuff being lost to road noise
versus loud stuff becoming an assault on the ears.

The car is the most annoying case for me. As I get replaygain tags
applied to more of my music, I am having more road trips where I never
touch the volume after I have made the initial adjustment.

Vanilla Music on the phone does have extra options on it's replaygain
menu for setting a "replaygain pre-amp" value and to reduce the volume
for tracks that do not have replaygain tags. Have to investigate those
options further. Probably more useful for playlists than for listening
to the entire music collection on random play, and random play of my
entire collection is what I do +95% of the time.

Later, Seeker

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#173178

On 9/18/2016 12:34 PM, Seeker wrote:
> Initially looked into the replaygain stuff in 2008. Don't remember
> what all was available at the time. Remember that I looked into
> Sounkoverter and easymp3gain-gtk. More recently have preferred
> easymp3gain-qt.
>
> I'm running unstable, investigating why esaymp3gain-gtk/-qt are
> showing up in the obsolete software list, it was removed by request.
> Aacgain handles MP3 files so that fact that easymp3gain was removed
> some time ago is a non-issue, dead upstream, no activity since 2013
> on the other hand is a big issue.
>
> Short term I am content to keep the software installed and continue
> using it while I investigate alternatives, but there are always the
> questions of 'How long do I really want to keep dead software on my
> system' and 'How long will the software continue to work'.
>
> So I am wondering what other people are using and what do you like
> about it.
>
> One of the things I like about easymp3gain-qt is the always visible
> listing of individual tracks that have been added and what track and
> album gain has been applied to each track. Having that kind of file
> listing is a lesser issue, would like a drag and drop solution.
>
> I'm getting ready to look at qtgain.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/qtgain/
>
> The snapshot makes it look kind of minimalistic as far as information
> it displays.
>
> Current process when I get a new CD.
>
> RIP with Soundjuicer, drag and drop from a filemanager to easymp3-qt
> to add the replaygain tags, browse into the album directory if not
> already there, select the music files and use the file managers 'open
> with' function to open in Musicbrainz Picard to pull in more complete
> tag information and rename the files to '[track #] [track title].
>
> Musicbrainz Picard does have a plug-in for replaygain, but I was not
> real happy with the way it works, seemed a little quirky but some of
> that may have been whatever updates were happening in unstable at the
> time when I looked at it.
>
> Later, Seeker
>

The continuing story of radar lo...um... replaygain.

I was going to compare things in my Ubuntu installation, but no aacgain
for Ubuntu, looks like there was a PPA for precise, but nothing for more
recent releases.

Back to Debian. I have aacgain loaded from deb-multimedia.org. Need that
for mp3 and m4a support. The tools that let you specify a path to
mp3gain you can use '/usr/bin/aacgain' so aacgain will get used for mp3.

No support anywhere for wma that I could find, don't know if that is
because of a limitation in tagging or something else.

Wasn't happy with qtgain.

The plugin for Musicbrainz Picard doesn't have an option for aacgain, so
no mp4, that may be a contributing factor as to why I thought it was a
little quirky.

The replaygain tool in Soundkonverter generally works pretty well,
except for m4a at the time I am writing this, it just displays question
marks in the track and album gain columns, so have to check in something
else to make sure that tags were applied in the m4a files.

After reviewing the wiki page again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReplayGain#Scanners

Noticed Quod Libet/Ex Falso. Ex Falso is a tagger, Quod Libet is a music
player that uses Ex Falso for it's tagging system. Available in Debian.

It looks like Ex Falso is the way I'm going to go.

The replaygain plugin in Ex Falso is disabled by default so you have to
enable it first.

Once enabled you can select some tracks in the song list, right click,
then select replaygain to initiate the scan.

Minor issues with Ex Falso.

It seems to have it's own way of scanning, so even if you select some
WMA files it can calculate a value, and it gives an option to save and
acts like it was successful, but since there is no support for wma, when
you close, then go back to those files again, no replaygain information.

My music is on a different hard drive, in the past I had symlinks, but
prefer not to do that these days. So in the filebrowser in Ex Falso it's
a little clunky to browse to where my music is and didn't see a way to
shorcut it in Ex Falso. Instead I open a filemanager, browse to my music
directory, then use the 'open with' option to open a directory in Ex
Falso. If you use the 'open with' function with a file just do one file,
if you select multiple files and do 'open with', you get multiple Ex
Falso windows.

If you use Quod Libet as your music player, you can use the tagging
feature from inside of Quod Libet and bypass some of those issues.

Ex Falso does save mp3 tags in id3v2.4 format, don't know if that is an
issue if you only use it for replaygain, but could be an issue if you
use it for the other tagging features. Mainly Windows Media Player and
Groove in Windows, or hardware music players, TVs, etc...

I don't have any issues with it on my Android phone. The stereo doesn't
know how to display cyrillic, kanji, etc... when I listen to music over
bluetooth in the car, but that is the same whether the mp3s are tagged
in id3v2.3 or id3v2.4.

I use Vanilla Music on my phone, available from Google Play or F-Droid,
whichever you prefer.

Later, Seeker

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#173475

On 10/4/2016 12:19 AM, Seeker wrote:

>
> It looks like Ex Falso is the way I'm going to go.
>
> The replaygain plugin in Ex Falso is disabled by default so you have to
> enable it first.
>
> Once enabled you can select some tracks in the song list, right click,
> then select replaygain to initiate the scan.
>
> Minor issues with Ex Falso.
>
> It seems to have it's own way of scanning, so even if you select some
> WMA files it can calculate a value, and it gives an option to save and
> acts like it was successful, but since there is no support for wma, when
> you close, then go back to those files again, no replaygain information.
>
> My music is on a different hard drive, in the past I had symlinks, but
> prefer not to do that these days. So in the filebrowser in Ex Falso it's
> a little clunky to browse to where my music is and didn't see a way to
> shorcut it in Ex Falso. Instead I open a filemanager, browse to my music
> directory, then use the 'open with' option to open a directory in Ex
> Falso. If you use the 'open with' function with a file just do one file,
> if you select multiple files and do 'open with', you get multiple Ex
> Falso windows.
>
> If you use Quod Libet as your music player, you can use the tagging
> feature from inside of Quod Libet and bypass some of those issues.
>
> Ex Falso does save mp3 tags in id3v2.4 format, don't know if that is an
> issue if you only use it for replaygain, but could be an issue if you
> use it for the other tagging features. Mainly Windows Media Player and
> Groove in Windows, or hardware music players, TVs, etc...
>
> I don't have any issues with it on my Android phone. The stereo doesn't
> know how to display cyrillic, kanji, etc... when I listen to music over
> bluetooth in the car, but that is the same whether the mp3s are tagged
> in id3v2.3 or id3v2.4.
>
> I use Vanilla Music on my phone, available from Google Play or F-Droid,
> whichever you prefer.
>

Replaygain: The adventure game.

Threw a few albums into a playlist, 754 tracks, some with replaygain
tags some without. For age of recording, genre, style, etc... a good
selection, but I don't have a list of what tracks in my collection are
the more quiet tracks, so I don't think any tracks in the playlist are
in that extreme quiet end of the spectrum.

Out of the stuff in the playlist thought the Robert Johnson stuff might
be in that extreme quiet side. It is on the low side compared to a lot
of post 2k music. Judas Priest - Redeemer of Souls got an album gain
value of -9.56dB, Robert Johnson - The Last of the Great Blues Singers
got an album gain value of -0.78dB. A significant difference without
replaygain, but not the extreme difference that annoys me.

In Vanilla Music I set the 'replaygain pre-amp' setting to +3, -2 for
the stuff without replaygain tags.

For the tracks in the playlist, that works pretty well. I bit the bullet
and added the replaygain tags to the rest of the stuff, except WMA files
since there is no support there.

A few things in the playlist are in WMA format, but most is in other
formats so less of a test in the difference between replaygain tagged
versus non-tagged after adding the replaygain to the remaining stuff.
Also changed the replaygain pre-amp setting to zero because of concern
about negative affect on the quiet stuff.

Listening this way for a while, things still seem pretty good.

I did find out I have more stuff in WMA format than I thought, but it
will probably still take some months on random play to really get a feel
for how that factors in over the long haul.

Looking at Ex Falso in more depth, it does use gstreamer to do the
replaygain stuff so if you use that there is no need to load anything
from outside the Debian archives to handle mp3 and m4a files.

Ex Falso sets replaygain peak tags and gain tags for track and album,
the replaygain tool in Soundkonverter and easymp3gain-gtk also seem to
do that when using easymp3gain or aacgain. Some of the other front ends
and aacgain from the command line default to a different method, which
modifies the volume a different way then has smaller values for the gain
tag, with an undo tag.

I have not noticed in my collection where this other tactic was used for
an m4a file, so the volume adjustment with the undo tag may be only for
mp3, or it may be that I didn't have many m4a files back in the
2007-2008 time frame when I messed with the replaygain stuff before.

Now that I have the replaygain done for the files on the phone and I am
getting into my re-tagging effort for the files on my computer I am
seeing some of the mp3 files have this undo information when I load the
files into Musicbrainz Picard, but Picard doesn't show the replaygain
information for m4a files. I have also been checking one or two files in
each album folder with mediainfo because it seems the undo stuff will
sometimes show in both sometimes only in Picard and sometimes only in
mediainfo.

Might not be necessary to undo the change and recalculate the gain, but
I want things to be consistent. The secondary reason, if something
happens to the tags when everything is in the tags, you just recalculate
and save the information again. If the volume is adjusted in the file
and undo information kept in a tag and something happens to the undo
tag, then the change becomes permanent.

The first batch of files I ran into with the undo tag I made a copy of
the files so I could play around with the different tools, aacgain does
have the option to use id3 tags to store the replaygain information, but
Ex Falso looks to be doing the tag a little differently so aacgain and
by extension the frontends that use it don't get rid of the tag.

To do this stuff I am normally browsing my music directories in PCManFM
and using the open with feature to open the files in Picard, mediainfo
or Ex Falso and it's just as easy to click the tools menu and open a
terminal window, so the method I settled in on for dealing with the
situation is....

Open a terminal window and use aacgain to undo, then get rid of the
tags, then check the tags to make sure it only shows the file names.

aacgain -u
aacgain -s d
aacgain -s c

Then use the back button in PCManFM, right click the folder with the
files and open with Ex Falso, remove the remaining replaygain tags, then
have Ex Falso recalculate the gain and save.

Later, Seeker

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#173498

On 10/13/2016 10:15 PM, Seeker wrote:

>
> To do this stuff I am normally browsing my music directories in PCManFM
> and using the open with feature to open the files in Picard, mediainfo
> or Ex Falso and it's just as easy to click the tools menu and open a
> terminal window, so the method I settled in on for dealing with the
> situation is....
>
> Open a terminal window and use aacgain to undo, then get rid of the
> tags, then check the tags to make sure it only shows the file names.
>
> aacgain -u
> aacgain -s d
> aacgain -s c
>
> Then use the back button in PCManFM, right click the folder with the
> files and open with Ex Falso, remove the remaining replaygain tags, then
> have Ex Falso recalculate the gain and save.
>

I have run across some m4a files that mediainfo shows having the undo
tags for replaygain so have adjusted the command line stuff.

aacgain -u *.m*
aacgain -s d *.m*
aacgain -s c *.m*
exit

so I can just hit the up arrow 4 times and hit 'Enter' for each of
these, assuming I have not done anything else at the command line since
the last time and 'aacgain -s c *.m*' gives the expected result.

Later, Seeker

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