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hplip and use of the "driver plugin"

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  hplip and use of the "driver plugin" doark@mail.com - 2016-12-03 00:00 +0100
    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2016-12-03 00:20 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-12-03 00:30 +0100
        Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-03 01:30 +0100
          Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 08:30 +0100
    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> - 2016-12-03 00:40 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-12-03 12:20 +0100
      Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-12-03 20:10 +0100
    Re: hplip and use of the "driver plugin" Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2016-12-07 22:50 +0100

#175344 — hplip and use of the "driver plugin"

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:34:03 -0500
Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I'm getting ready to replace all of our old equipment that has been
> used for well over a decade in our home network.
>
> I decided to try to do everything with FOSS -- open source Luxul
> router, open-source-only drivers for everything on the libreboot PCs.
> But I've run into a snag with the printer and scanner.
Out of curiosity, why the printer? Is it failing? Ink unavailable?

> I was going to make life easy for myself and use hplip with something 
> like an HP MFP. But all of the new HP MFP and scanners seem to make use 
> of a "driver plugin". If I'm understanding correctly, a user has to run 
> the hp-setup program that comes with hplip. That program actually 
> downloads this proprietary blob during installation of the printer.
> This is not at all what I want. So far, the only MFPs and scanners I've
> found that don't use the driver plugin are either FCC Class A devices
> so not really suitable for home use or are at end of support. There are
> a couple of single function laser printers that might work, but I'd
> still have to find a scanner that doesn't require the blob. HP doesn't
> appear to make one.
> 
<snip>

I hope I caught you in time.

Not to long ago I bought an HP LaserJet 200 color M251nw.
As for a scanner, I bought the HP 8200. It's an older model, though, and
support was just added in sane backends for it. Search for the thread:
"Cannot get hp scanjet 8200 working" in sane devel.

Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that people
could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no, refilling the old
ones did not work. So everyone had to have a firmware update.

If you want you could try the Bother brand, there Linux support is
getting good from what I've read.

Epson is working to get support for their scanners working under Linux,
but last I read (1 year ago), the software was still alpha quality.

Sincerely,
David

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#175345

On 11/30/2016 09:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:34:03 -0500
> Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to replace all of our old equipment that has been
>> used for well over a decade in our home network.
>>
>> I decided to try to do everything with FOSS -- open source Luxul
>> router, open-source-only drivers for everything on the libreboot PCs.
>> But I've run into a snag with the printer and scanner.
> Out of curiosity, why the printer? Is it failing? Ink unavailable?
>
>> I was going to make life easy for myself and use hplip with something
>> like an HP MFP. But all of the new HP MFP and scanners seem to make use
>> of a "driver plugin". If I'm understanding correctly, a user has to run
>> the hp-setup program that comes with hplip. That program actually
>> downloads this proprietary blob during installation of the printer.
>> This is not at all what I want. So far, the only MFPs and scanners I've
>> found that don't use the driver plugin are either FCC Class A devices
>> so not really suitable for home use or are at end of support. There are
>> a couple of single function laser printers that might work, but I'd
>> still have to find a scanner that doesn't require the blob. HP doesn't
>> appear to make one.
>>
> <snip>
>
> I hope I caught you in time.
>
> Not to long ago I bought an HP LaserJet 200 color M251nw.
> As for a scanner, I bought the HP 8200. It's an older model, though, and
> support was just added in sane backends for it. Search for the thread:
> "Cannot get hp scanjet 8200 working" in sane devel.
>
> Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that people
> could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no, refilling the old
> ones did not work. So everyone had to have a firmware update.
>
> If you want you could try the Bother brand, there Linux support is
> getting good from what I've read.
>
> Epson is working to get support for their scanners working under Linux,
> but last I read (1 year ago), the software was still alpha quality.
>
> Sincerely,
> David
>
>
I have an Epson WP4530 all-in-one inkjet printer/scanner/fax which works
perfectly under Linux (PCLOS) both to print and to scan--I haven't set up
a routine to fax from the PC but it sends and receives faxes perfectly
from/to the machine directly. I also have an old Epson Perfection V300 Photo
stand-alone scanner which also works perfectly.
In PCLOS, it is necessary to find a file of printers/scanners called
/etc/sane.d/dll.conf and comment out "epson" and remove comment "epson2"
and then all will be fine.
I have no financial interest in Epson, I just think they are good products.

--doug

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#175346

On Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:19:09 AM Doug wrote:
> On 11/30/2016 09:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
> > Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that people
> > could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no, refilling the old
> > ones did not work. So everyone had to have a firmware update.

I heard something different lately, that HP changed the drivers (at least 
some), to, iirc, prevent people from using ink cartridges from other 
manufacturers and to prevent people from refilling and reusing their old ink 
cartridges.

Understanding this, I've made a note to myself to carefully avoid accidentally 
updating the drivers in my HP 4 in 1 printer.  (I haven't yet emptied any 
cartridges, so I don't yet have first hand experience with trying to refill and 
reuse any...)

Did I misunderstand?

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#175348

On 12/02/2016 06:25 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:19:09 AM Doug wrote:
>> On 11/30/2016 09:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
>>> Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that people
>>> could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no, refilling the old
>>> ones did not work. So everyone had to have a firmware update.
>
> I heard something different lately, that HP changed the drivers (at least
> some), to, iirc, prevent people from using ink cartridges from other
> manufacturers and to prevent people from refilling and reusing their old ink
> cartridges.
>
> Understanding this, I've made a note to myself to carefully avoid accidentally
> updating the drivers in my HP 4 in 1 printer.  (I haven't yet emptied any
> cartridges, so I don't yet have first hand experience with trying to refill and
> reuse any...)
>
> Did I misunderstand?
>
>
I don't think you misunderstood.

https://www.wired.com/2016/09/hp-printer-drm/

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/hps-drm-sabotages-off-brand-printer-ink-cartridges-with-self-destruct-date/

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/20/hp-inkjet-printers-unofficial-cartridges-software-update

http://fossforce.com/2016/09/hp-retrofits-ink-cartridge-drm-printers/

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160920/07021035568/hp-launched-delayed-drm-time-bomb-to-disable-competing-printer-cartridges.shtml

This stuff in addition to the driver plugin decision makes me think that 
policy wrt HP's attitude toward users of their products has changed over 
recent years.

I'm hardly an expert, but the "DRM" retrofit strikes me as a pretty 
dirty trick. And what I, at least, perceive as the slightly sneaky 
introduction of the binary blob driver plugins while maintaining the 
guise of fully open-sourced driver software could be more of the same.

In one of my more paranoid moments while considering these factors I 
actually wondered if the driver plugins could also provide HP a means of 
preventing the use of alternative inks / toner / etc. That would be kind 
of nasty, wouldn't it? When I mentioned the idea to my right-wing-nut 
conspiracy theorist friend he suggested that the driver plugins might 
provide one of them there back doors" that the gov'ment is always 
puttin' in our computers. I have to admit I'm a bit bothered by the need 
to stick libraries and firmware for which we have no source code on the 
system drive. I might not be able to figure out a nasty hidden ploy in 
the source, but the fact that no one in the Open Source community has 
access to do so gives me pause.

Yet, its certainly true that HP has provided a wider range of drivers 
for its printers and scanners than practically any other common 
provider. I'm just annoyed by what appears to me to be a slightly 
"proprietary" (in the commercial and the more alarming social sense) 
trend. Hey, HP, I bought the printer. It's mine now. Hai capito?

Eh, different strokes for different folks. But HP won't be getting more 
business from me unless I see a change in the apparent policies like the 
ones that resulted in the aforementioned behaviors.

I'm more than a little tired of corporate behavior that smacks of the 
consumer being owned by corporations.

Regards,
JP

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#175354

On 12/02/2016 04:14 PM, Jape Person wrote:
> On 12/02/2016 06:25 PM, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:19:09 AM Doug wrote:
>>> On 11/30/2016 09:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
>>>> Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that 
>>>> people
>>>> could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no, refilling 
>>>> the old
>>>> ones did not work. So everyone had to have a firmware update.
>>
>> I heard something different lately, that HP changed the drivers (at 
>> least
>> some), to, iirc, prevent people from using ink cartridges from other
>> manufacturers and to prevent people from refilling and reusing their 
>> old ink
>> cartridges.
>>
>> Understanding this, I've made a note to myself to carefully avoid 
>> accidentally
>> updating the drivers in my HP 4 in 1 printer.  (I haven't yet emptied 
>> any
>> cartridges, so I don't yet have first hand experience with trying to 
>> refill and
>> reuse any...)
>>
>> Did I misunderstand?
>>
>>
> I don't think you misunderstood.
>
> https://www.wired.com/2016/09/hp-printer-drm/
>
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/hps-drm-sabotages-off-brand-printer-ink-cartridges-with-self-destruct-date/ 
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/20/hp-inkjet-printers-unofficial-cartridges-software-update 
>
>
> http://fossforce.com/2016/09/hp-retrofits-ink-cartridge-drm-printers/
>
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160920/07021035568/hp-launched-delayed-drm-time-bomb-to-disable-competing-printer-cartridges.shtml 
>
>
> This stuff in addition to the driver plugin decision makes me think 
> that policy wrt HP's attitude toward users of their products has 
> changed over recent years.
>
> I'm hardly an expert, but the "DRM" retrofit strikes me as a pretty 
> dirty trick. And what I, at least, perceive as the slightly sneaky 
> introduction of the binary blob driver plugins while maintaining the 
> guise of fully open-sourced driver software could be more of the same.
>
> In one of my more paranoid moments while considering these factors I 
> actually wondered if the driver plugins could also provide HP a means 
> of preventing the use of alternative inks / toner / etc. That would be 
> kind of nasty, wouldn't it? When I mentioned the idea to my 
> right-wing-nut conspiracy theorist friend he suggested that the driver 
> plugins might provide one of them there back doors" that the gov'ment 
> is always puttin' in our computers. I have to admit I'm a bit bothered 
> by the need to stick libraries and firmware for which we have no 
> source code on the system drive. I might not be able to figure out a 
> nasty hidden ploy in the source, but the fact that no one in the Open 
> Source community has access to do so gives me pause.
>
> Yet, its certainly true that HP has provided a wider range of drivers 
> for its printers and scanners than practically any other common 
> provider. I'm just annoyed by what appears to me to be a slightly 
> "proprietary" (in the commercial and the more alarming social sense) 
> trend. Hey, HP, I bought the printer. It's mine now. Hai capito?
>
> Eh, different strokes for different folks. But HP won't be getting 
> more business from me unless I see a change in the apparent policies 
> like the ones that resulted in the aforementioned behaviors.
>
> I'm more than a little tired of corporate behavior that smacks of the 
> consumer being owned by corporations.
>
> Regards,
> JP
>
I have an HP Photosmart 6520 wihich is now almost three years old.  I 
run HPLip, but I can't say anything about the driver plugin, as that was 
not an issue for me when I set this box up and got the printer.  I can 
say that I started out using only HP ink cartridges as HP made it clear 
that other inks and cartridges would void the warranty.  The last actual 
HP cartridge that I bought, however, was in December of 2014.  Since 
then, I have been buying my inks from colortonerexpert.com, where I can 
get a 4 pack of black and each of the three colors for only $21.99.  
That's less than the cost of a single black cartridge from HP.  When I 
put a new cartridge in, as I just did a few hours ago, the printer 
informs me that there are non HP cartridges in the printer, but it does 
not prevent me from using them.  Presumably, if I needed and wanted 
service from HP they could see that non HP inks were used, but the 
printer is three years old and out of any warranty, so, not really an 
issue for me.

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#175347

On 11/30/2016 10:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:34:03 -0500 Jape Person <japers@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to replace all of our old equipment that has
>> been used for well over a decade in our home network.
>>
>> I decided to try to do everything with FOSS -- open source Luxul
>> router, open-source-only drivers for everything on the libreboot
>> PCs. But I've run into a snag with the printer and scanner.
> Out of curiosity, why the printer? Is it failing? Ink unavailable?
>

The HP LaserJet 1300 is one of the best printers I've ever owned. It's 
very cheap to operate, and it has never jammed or exhibited any other 
sign of unreliability. The print quality is also outstanding.

But it wasn't the "n" model, so would require a DirectJet module to hook 
it up directly to the network. (I don't wish to hook it directly to a 
computer.) Someone I know has a use for it, so it's going to be a donation.

>> I was going to make life easy for myself and use hplip with
>> something like an HP MFP. But all of the new HP MFP and scanners
>> seem to make use of a "driver plugin". If I'm understanding
>> correctly, a user has to run the hp-setup program that comes with
>> hplip. That program actually downloads this proprietary blob during
>> installation of the printer. This is not at all what I want. So
>> far, the only MFPs and scanners I've found that don't use the
>> driver plugin are either FCC Class A devices so not really suitable
>> for home use or are at end of support. There are a couple of single
>> function laser printers that might work, but I'd still have to find
>> a scanner that doesn't require the blob. HP doesn't appear to make
>> one.
>>
> <snip>
>
> I hope I caught you in time.
>

I caught myself in time.

;-)

> Not to long ago I bought an HP LaserJet 200 color M251nw. As for a
> scanner, I bought the HP 8200. It's an older model, though, and
> support was just added in sane backends for it. Search for the
> thread: "Cannot get hp scanjet 8200 working" in sane devel.
>
> Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that
> people could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no,
> refilling the old ones did not work. So everyone had to have a
> firmware update.
>

Yes, it had been probably at least a decade since I had even thought of 
buying a new printer and/or scanner. This time around I was astounded to 
see the apparent changes in HP's attitude about the GNU/Linux community. 
Between the fiasco wrt the firmware and drivers requiring end users to 
use only HP ink cartridges and this relatively new ploy of requiring a 
"driver plugin" for practically all new devices that incorporate a 
scanner, I've become a little less enthusiastic about supporting HP. As 
a matter of fact, they state directly on their Web site that they intend 
to employ the driver plugin in more and more of their device designs -- 
especially inkjet MFPs, which were the ones where it notably hadn't been 
used yet.

> If you want you could try the Bother brand, there Linux support is
> getting good from what I've read.
>

Yes, I settled for a Brother MFC (MFC9340CDW) which is listed on 
openprinting.org as being supported, though still not officially 
included within foomatic. I suspect that their report of "perfect" 
support refers only to the printer, but I can make do with a printer and 
a copier if need be. The thing even does direct scanning to and printing 
from Android devices, so my wife's evil tablet can grab us a scan, if 
need be. And I do know that -- if I change my mind about using a 
proprietary driver -- I can always use the one that Brother supplies.

I had found an HP MFC that didn't require the plugin, but by then I was 
kind of appalled by the direction that HP seems to be taking, and the 
Brother was cheaper and got very good reviews from CNET and PC Mag. Only 
time will tell if it was a good choice.

> Epson is working to get support for their scanners working under
> Linux, but last I read (1 year ago), the software was still alpha
> quality.
>

ACK.

Thank you for your observations!

Regards,
JP

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#175358

On Fri 02 Dec 2016 at 18:38:12 -0500, Jape Person wrote:

> On 11/30/2016 10:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
> 
> >If you want you could try the Bother brand, there Linux support is
> >getting good from what I've read.
> 
> Yes, I settled for a Brother MFC (MFC9340CDW) which is listed on
> openprinting.org as being supported, though still not officially included
> within foomatic. I suspect that their report of "perfect" support refers
> only to the printer, but I can make do with a printer and a copier if need

The report (a user-contributed entry) says "works Perfectly". If you
were expecting "perfect" to mean "no non-free blobs" you are likely to
be disappointed. Support for printing is offered by Brother. When you
download their software you will agree that

 ... Brother shall have no liability to disclose and/or distribute
 the source code of the Software to User under any circumstances.
 In no case shall the above license by Brother to modify, alter,
 translate or otherwise prepare derivative works of the Software be
 construed as Brother's implied agreement or undertakings to
 disclose and/or distribute the source code of the Software.

Frying pan -------->-------->--------> Fire

> be. The thing even does direct scanning to and printing from Android
> devices, so my wife's evil tablet can grab us a scan, if need be. And I do
> know that -- if I change my mind about using a proprietary driver -- I can
> always use the one that Brother supplies.
> 
> I had found an HP MFC that didn't require the plugin, but by then I was kind
> of appalled by the direction that HP seems to be taking, and the Brother was
> cheaper and got very good reviews from CNET and PC Mag. Only time will tell
> if it was a good choice.

Pragmatism in action.

-- 
Brian.

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#175375

On Fri 02 Dec 2016 at 18:38:12 -0500, Jape Person wrote:                                                                
                                                                                                                        
> On 11/30/2016 10:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:                                                                         
>                                                                                                                       
> >If you want you could try the Bother brand, there Linux support is
> >getting good from what I've read.                                                                                    >
> Yes, I settled for a Brother MFC (MFC9340CDW) which is listed on
> openprinting.org as being supported, though still not officially included
> within foomatic. I suspect that their report of "perfect" support refers
> only to the printer, but I can make do with a printer and a copier if need                                            

The report (a user-contributed entry) says "works Perfectly". If you
were expecting "perfect" to mean "no non-free blobs" you are likely to                                                  
be disappointed. Support for printing is offered by Brother. When you                                                   
download their software you will agree that                                                                             
                                                                                                                        
 ... Brother shall have no liability to disclose and/or distribute                                                      
 the source code of the Software to User under any circumstances.                                                       
 In no case shall the above license by Brother to modify, alter,                                                        
 translate or otherwise prepare derivative works of the Software be                                                     
 construed as Brother's implied agreement or undertakings to                                                            
 disclose and/or distribute the source code of the Software.                                                            
                                                                                                                        
Frying pan -------->-------->--------> Fire                                                                             
                                                                                                                        
> be. The thing even does direct scanning to and printing from Android                                                  
> devices, so my wife's evil tablet can grab us a scan, if need be. And I do                                            
> know that -- if I change my mind about using a proprietary driver -- I can                                            
> always use the one that Brother supplies.                                                                             
>                                                                                                                       
> I had found an HP MFC that didn't require the plugin, but by then I was kind                                          
> of appalled by the direction that HP seems to be taking, and the Brother was
> cheaper and got very good reviews from CNET and PC Mag. Only time will tell                                           
> if it was a good choice.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                        
Pragmatism in action.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                        
-- 
Feline Felicitations
Brian.

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#175531

On 11/30/2016 09:57 AM, doark@mail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:34:03 -0500
> Jape Person <japers@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to replace all of our old equipment that has been
>> used for well over a decade in our home network.
>>
>> I decided to try to do everything with FOSS -- open source Luxul
>> router, open-source-only drivers for everything on the libreboot PCs.
>> But I've run into a snag with the printer and scanner.
> Out of curiosity, why the printer? Is it failing? Ink unavailable?
>
>> I was going to make life easy for myself and use hplip with something
>> like an HP MFP. But all of the new HP MFP and scanners seem to make use
>> of a "driver plugin". If I'm understanding correctly, a user has to run
>> the hp-setup program that comes with hplip. That program actually
>> downloads this proprietary blob during installation of the printer.
>> This is not at all what I want. So far, the only MFPs and scanners I've
>> found that don't use the driver plugin are either FCC Class A devices
>> so not really suitable for home use or are at end of support. There are
>> a couple of single function laser printers that might work, but I'd
>> still have to find a scanner that doesn't require the blob. HP doesn't
>> appear to make one.
>>
> <snip>
>
> I hope I caught you in time.
>
> Not to long ago I bought an HP LaserJet 200 color M251nw.
> As for a scanner, I bought the HP 8200. It's an older model, though, and
> support was just added in sane backends for it. Search for the thread:
> "Cannot get hp scanjet 8200 working" in sane devel.
>
> Beware of HP inkjets, HP recently had to change the code so that people
> could install ink cartridges that were not HP's and no, refilling the old
> ones did not work. So everyone had to have a firmware update.
>
> If you want you could try the Bother brand, there Linux support is
> getting good from what I've read.
>
> Epson is working to get support for their scanners working under Linux,
> but last I read (1 year ago), the software was still alpha quality.
>
> Sincerely,
> David
>
>
I have an Epson all-in-one, a WP4530 and the scanner is excellent. I 
also have an Epson Photo-Smart from quite a few years ag, and it is also 
supported.
In case you don't realize it, Epson was a pioneer in the scanner and 
printer business. It's a shame that there doesn't seem to be much 
cooperation
between them and the Linux folks, but their Linux software works, it's 
just a pain to set it up.

--doug

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