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How to get rid of M10

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  How to get rid of M10 Maureen L Thomas <silverorb@verizon.net> - 2016-08-09 00:30 +0200
    Re: How to get rid of M10 Thiago Zoroastro <thiago.zoroastro@yahoo.com.br> - 2016-08-09 00:40 +0200
    Re: How to get rid of M10 Eero Volotinen <eero.volotinen@iki.fi> - 2016-08-09 00:50 +0200
      Re: How to get rid of M10 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-08-09 01:00 +0200
    Re: How to get rid of M10 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-08-09 01:00 +0200
    Re: How to get rid of M10 Karol Augustin <karol@augustin.pl> - 2016-08-09 01:10 +0200
      Re: How to get rid of M10 Thiago Zoroastro <thiago.zoroastro@yahoo.com.br> - 2016-08-09 01:40 +0200
      Re: How to get rid of M10 Mark Fletcher <mark27q1@gmail.com> - 2016-08-09 15:40 +0200
        Re: How to get rid of M10 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-08-09 15:50 +0200
        Re: How to get rid of M10 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-08-09 17:20 +0200
          Re: How to get rid of M10 Mark Fletcher <mark27q1@gmail.com> - 2016-08-10 01:30 +0200
            Re: How to get rid of M10 Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-08-10 14:10 +0200

#170857 — How to get rid of M10

I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the BIOS 
to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot device in 
and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with Debian on it.  
What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put Debian on it?  Thanks 
for your help

Maureen

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#170858

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Maybe using pendrive and booting his Notebook's USB port.
See what the priority boot devices must be, ensuring yourself if it's CD/DVD ROM to boot him.

Try some Debian-based and Ubuntu-based GNU/Linux operating systems if you can.


 

    Em Segunda-feira, 8 de Agosto de 2016 19:21, Maureen L Thomas <silverorb@verizon.net> escreveu:
 

 I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the BIOS 
to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot device in 
and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with Debian on it.  
What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put Debian on it?  Thanks 
for your help

Maureen



  

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#170859

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You possibly need to disable secure boot from bios settings.

Eero

9.8.2016 1.45 ap. "Maureen L Thomas" <silverorb@verizon.net> kirjoitti:

> I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the BIOS
> to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot device in and
> reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with Debian on it.  What
> else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put Debian on it?  Thanks for
> your help
>
> Maureen
>
>

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#170861

On Monday 08 August 2016 23:48:26 Eero Volotinen wrote:
> You possibly need to disable secure boot from bios settings.

Probably.

Lisi
>
> Eero
>
> 9.8.2016 1.45 ap. "Maureen L Thomas" <silverorb@verizon.net> kirjoitti:
> > I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the BIOS
> > to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot device in
> > and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with Debian on it. 
> > What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put Debian on it?  Thanks
> > for your help
> >
> > Maureen

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#170860

On Monday 08 August 2016 23:12:32 Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the BIOS
> to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot device in
> and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with Debian on it.
> What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put Debian on it?  Thanks
> for your help
>
> Maureen

Try F2 and change the boot order in the BIOS.

https://mans.io/files/viewer/72128/25

Watch the messages as you turn the computer on.  There may also be a boot 
menu.  In addition, you may need to change some of the settings in the BIOS, 
besides the boot order.

Lisi

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#170862

On 2016-08-08 23:12, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the
> BIOS to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot
> device in and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with
> Debian on it.  What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put
> Debian on it?  Thanks for your help
> 
> Maureen

What I always recommend is to disable UEFI in BIOS. The option you're
looking for is LEGACY BOOT/UEFI switch. Then you'll be able to set boot
order normally and install OS. I've heard that Linux supports UEFI but
it was always really painful for me to get it working. If you plan to
use Linux exclusively than LEGACY BOOT might be the easiest way to go.

Karol


-- 
Karol Augustin
karol@augustin.pl
http://karolaugustin.pl/
+353 85 775 5312

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#170863

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Oh, even. 

    Em Segunda-feira, 8 de Agosto de 2016 20:03, Karol Augustin <karol@augustin.pl> escreveu:
 

 On 2016-08-08 23:12, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the
> BIOS to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot
> device in and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with
> Debian on it.  What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put
> Debian on it?  Thanks for your help
> 
> Maureen

What I always recommend is to disable UEFI in BIOS. The option you're
looking for is LEGACY BOOT/UEFI switch. Then you'll be able to set boot
order normally and install OS. I've heard that Linux supports UEFI but
it was always really painful for me to get it working. If you plan to
use Linux exclusively than LEGACY BOOT might be the easiest way to go.

Karol


-- 
Karol Augustin
karol@augustin.pl
http://karolaugustin.pl/
+353 85 775 5312



  

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#170874

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On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 8:02 AM Karol Augustin <karol@augustin.pl> wrote:

> On 2016-08-08 23:12, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> > I have an acer aspire XC-704G with windows 10 on it.  I changed the
> > BIOS to boot from CD/DVD but all I get is a message to put a boot
> > device in and reboot.  It will not recognize the bootable DVD with
> > Debian on it.  What else do I need to do to get rid of 10 and put
> > Debian on it?  Thanks for your help
> >
> > Maureen
>
> What I always recommend is to disable UEFI in BIOS. The option you're
> looking for is LEGACY BOOT/UEFI switch. Then you'll be able to set boot
> order normally and install OS. I've heard that Linux supports UEFI but
> it was always really painful for me to get it working. If you plan to
> use Linux exclusively than LEGACY BOOT might be the easiest way to go.
>
> Karol
>
>
> I'm not sure I can agree with this. By all means disable "secure boot",
that you will have to do, but it isn't necessary to disable UEFI to get
Debian to install / boot. UEFI is what all new machines support and legacy
boot modes are starting to disappear from modern motherboards (by no means
gone, but the trend isn't in a good direction for BIOS dinosaurs). So it's
probably time to get used to UEFI, so as not to get a nasty shock at next
new machine purchase / build.

The Debian install media can boot and/or install in UEFI or legacy BIOS
("MBR") mode. The choice has several implications:

1) UEFI boot works best (only?) with a GPT partition table. Legacy boot can
be done from either but is easier with an old "DOS" partition table --
there are gotchas to trying to use a GPT partition table with legacy boot.
I forget the details but I wrestled with this earlier this year when
installing my first UEFI system (which was LFS, so I had to set up
everything myself).
2) The partition table layout needs to be right for UEFI, and what works
for an MBR boot won't work for UEFI.
3) BIOS settings needed for UEFI are totally different than what we all
worked with for years. Recognise that change is the only constant, RTFM,
and get used to it. (and don't do what I did and STFM [Skim the...] because
then you will eff up your partition structure and that would have been
painful if my machine's SSD had been bigger than 32G...)

So you need to make the decision early in the process which boot method you
are going to use. The Debian installer can handle either, installing a
machine to boot MBR if it was booted MBR and installing to boot UEFI if it
was installed UEFI.

What is extremely hard is booting a machine MBR and then setting it up to
boot UEFI. With the aforementioned LFS system I ended up plugging in 2 USB
keys, one blank and one with the Debian installer on it, installing Debian
onto the blank key, then booting that to get an environment from which I
could set up UEFI boot for my LFS box to boot UEFI from its own SSD. That
worked because the Debian installer can handle both MBR and UEFI
environments. Using the Debian installer to actually install Debian, you
dodge that.

One note, although the Debian _installer_ can handle UEFI boot, at last
check the Debian _LiveCD_ is MBR only. I have no idea why. But you don't
see me doing anything about it, so the volume you will hear me complaining
about it is correspondingly limited :)

Mark

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#170875

On Tuesday 09 August 2016 14:35:05 Mark Fletcher wrote:
> By all means disable "secure boot",
> that you will have to do, but it isn't necessary to disable UEFI to get
> Debian to install / boot.

I would echo this.  You leave yourself far more optiosn into teh future if oyu 
just disable secure boot.  And Cause yourself fewer problems.  And make sure 
that the BIOS hasn't got the special-for-Windows key enabled.

Lisi

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#170879

Le 09/08/2016 à 15:35, Mark Fletcher a écrit :
>>
> it isn't necessary to disable UEFI to get
> Debian to install / boot.

Sometimes is it, due to unworkable UEFI firmware bugs. I've been hit by 
a couple of them, notably graphic issues.

> probably time to get used to UEFI, so as not to get a nasty shock at next
> new machine purchase / build.

I second this.

> The Debian install media can boot and/or install in UEFI or legacy BIOS
> ("MBR") mode.

BIOS, legacy or CSM mode. MBR is only the disk sector. EFI boot also 
uses an MBR. It just does not use the BIOS boot loader inside.

> 1) UEFI boot works best (only?) with a GPT partition table.

Not only.
Compliant UEFI firmwares should boot equally well with MSDOS or GPT. 
But, as I wrote, some firmwares are broken.
Windows requires GPT for EFI boot and MSDOS for legacy boot. Linux, 
GRUB... don't.

> there are gotchas to trying to use a GPT partition table with legacy boot.

Mostly due to BIOS firmware bugs. Again...

> 2) The partition table layout needs to be right for UEFI, and what works
> for an MBR boot won't work for UEFI.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Legacy and EFI boot have different requirements (legacy needs a boot 
loader in the MBR, EFI needs a boot loader in the EFI system partition), 
but they are not incompatible, so it is possible to have the same 
installation boot either in legacy or EFI mode. When it's not possible 
is only due to firmware bugs.

> So you need to make the decision early in the process which boot method you
> are going to use. The Debian installer can handle either, installing a
> machine to boot MBR if it was booted MBR and installing to boot UEFI if it
> was installed UEFI.

If the installer was booted in EFI mode it can also install to boot in 
legacy mode if it detects another installed OS which boots in legacy mode.

> What is extremely hard is booting a machine MBR and then setting it up to
> boot UEFI.

I would not say "extremely", but harder than the other way around. One 
reason is that you need to create an EFI system partition on the boot 
disk, usually going through the hassle of reducing another partition.

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#170891

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On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 12:19 AM Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
wrote:

> Le 09/08/2016 à 15:35, Mark Fletcher a écrit :
>
> > The Debian install media can boot and/or install in UEFI or legacy BIOS
> > ("MBR") mode.
>
> BIOS, legacy or CSM mode. MBR is only the disk sector. EFI boot also
> uses an MBR. It just does not use the BIOS boot loader inside.
>
>
Sorry, I didn't invent the terminology. The fact is a large body of
e-literature that anyone following this discussion after the event will
find on the web refers to the alternative to EFI boot as "MBR" boot (with
or without quotes). Failing to acknowledge that in the name of precision
will only make it harder for others to relate what we are saying here to
other information they will find on the web. This comes from experience as
I was just in this position myself a couple of months ago.


> > 1) UEFI boot works best (only?) with a GPT partition table.
>
> Not only.
> Compliant UEFI firmwares should boot equally well with MSDOS or GPT.
> But, as I wrote, some firmwares are broken.
> Windows requires GPT for EFI boot and MSDOS for legacy boot. Linux,
> GRUB... don't.
>

Right, that rings a bell.


> > 2) The partition table layout needs to be right for UEFI, and what works
> > for an MBR boot won't work for UEFI.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
> Legacy and EFI boot have different requirements (legacy needs a boot
> loader in the MBR, EFI needs a boot loader in the EFI system partition),
> but they are not incompatible, so it is possible to have the same
> installation boot either in legacy or EFI mode. When it's not possible
> is only due to firmware bugs.
>
>
I meant the very fact that EFI requires particular partitions to exist,
while non-EFI requires only that at least 1 partition exist. It's entirely
feasible to construct a partition scheme that works happily with non-EFI
boot but will not work with EFI boot -- indeed, almost any reasonable
structure that a user comes up with that makes sense from a legacy
perspective in the absence of knowledge of EFI's requirements, will not
work with EFI, at least because it doesn't include the EFI boot partition
required by EFI. So no, compatible they certainly ain't. Where I was going
with my original comment was -- read up in detail on EFI and its
requirements before you determine your partition structure, don't do what I
originally did and assume that the switchover can be done with minimal
changes. I first hit this when building an LFS system, and deferred getting
my head around it until after I had finished the build process, which
turned out to be a mistake, because I ended up having to back up what I'd
just built, wipe everything and re-do the partition structure, then restore
the backup into the new structure. I was able to do that because the disk
on the machine was relatively small and I had room for it on backup storage
media. Had I not, I would have been a very unhappy bunny... It takes
several days to build an LFS system from the ground up.


> > So you need to make the decision early in the process which boot method
> you
> > are going to use. The Debian installer can handle either, installing a
> > machine to boot MBR if it was booted MBR and installing to boot UEFI if
> it
> > was installed UEFI.
>
> If the installer was booted in EFI mode it can also install to boot in
> legacy mode if it detects another installed OS which boots in legacy mode.
>
> True. I have moved away from dual boot for many years now, only run
non-Linux machines in VMs, so don't tend to spend a lot of time thinking
about such configurations, but I agree grub does.


> > What is extremely hard is booting a machine MBR and then setting it up to
> > boot UEFI.
>
> I would not say "extremely", but harder than the other way around. One
> reason is that you need to create an EFI system partition on the boot
> disk, usually going through the hassle of reducing another partition.
>
> Have you ever tried it? grub-install won't be able to work because the
system calls it tries to make fail. virtual file systems (efivars or
something? I forget exactly) that need to be populated... aren't. Bringing
up a machine from a legacy boot and then getting the infrastructure in
place to be able to run grub-install is hard. Sufficiently hard that I in
fact was unable to do it and had to do the dance I mentioned in my earlier
reply to get the machine migrated -- in essence, cheat, and find a way to
boot the machine in EFI mode so I could install an EFI boot. The essence of
the issue is, grub-install, and all the web literature on how to do this,
assume that if you are installing an EFI boot, you booted the machine in
EFI mode.

Mark

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#170918

Le 10/08/2016 à 01:28, Mark Fletcher a écrit :
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 12:19 AM Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Le 09/08/2016 à 15:35, Mark Fletcher a écrit :
>
>>> 2) The partition table layout needs to be right for UEFI, and what works
>>> for an MBR boot won't work for UEFI.
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
>> Legacy and EFI boot have different requirements (legacy needs a boot
>> loader in the MBR, EFI needs a boot loader in the EFI system partition),
>> but they are not incompatible, so it is possible to have the same
>> installation boot either in legacy or EFI mode. When it's not possible
>> is only due to firmware bugs.
>>
> I meant the very fact that EFI requires particular partitions to exist,

Actually I am not even sure of this, although I didn't read the EFI 
specification.

I could see with efibootmgr that an EFI boot variable stores the full 
location (GUID and position) of the partition containing the boot 
loader, so I wondered if the partition really had to by of the "EFI 
system" type. I manually registered a copy of GRUB EFI core image stored 
on a standard FAT partition (so that the UEFI firmware can read it) with 
efibootmgr, and could successfully boot it from the UEFI boot menu. So 
either the EFI system partition is not a requirement, or this UEFI 
firmware implementation was more permissive.

So it could be that the EFI system partition is only needed to boot with 
the default bootloader, when no EFI boot variable is defined for the 
device (e.g. when it is a removable device such as the installer).

Granted, a FAT partition is not that common on GNU/Linux systems, so 
that does not help us much.

> while non-EFI requires only that at least 1 partition exist.

This is not a standard BIOS requirement. The BIOS should be partition 
agnostic and only check the 0xAA55 (or 0x55AA) signature in the last two 
bytes of the MBR. Unfortunately, I observed that some BIOSes I call 
"broken" check the MSDOS partition table and require that one partition 
with the boot flag exist.

Many misconceptions exist about requirements and limitations of the 
BIOS. For example, a common belief is that the BIOS cannot address more 
than 2 TiB of a disk. However such a limit does not exist in the BIOS 
specification, but only in the MBR/MSDOS partition table format. As 
usual you may come across a particular BIOS implementation with that 
limit, but it's a bug. Of course one is free to act as if all BIOSes 
have this limit for safety, but it is not a general truth.

> It's entirely
> feasible to construct a partition scheme that works happily with non-EFI
> boot but will not work with EFI boot -- indeed, almost any reasonable
> structure that a user comes up with that makes sense from a legacy
> perspective in the absence of knowledge of EFI's requirements, will not
> work with EFI, at least because it doesn't include the EFI boot partition
> required by EFI. So no, compatible they certainly ain't.

They are compatible in the sense that adding what is required for the 
EFI boot does not remove the compatibility with the BIOS boot. They can 
coexist, if you prefer.

>>> What is extremely hard is booting a machine MBR and then setting it up to
>>> boot UEFI.
>>
>> I would not say "extremely", but harder than the other way around. One
>> reason is that you need to create an EFI system partition on the boot
>> disk, usually going through the hassle of reducing another partition.
>
> Have you ever tried it?

Of course I have. Otherwise I would not dare to be so affirmative.

> grub-install won't be able to work because the
> system calls it tries to make fail. virtual file systems (efivars or
> something? I forget exactly) that need to be populated... aren't.

Correct, but there is a workaround. Booting in EFI mode to have access 
to EFI variables is needed only to create an EFI boot entry. But you 
don't need an EFI boot entry to boot the default boot loader. This is 
how the installer boots from a removable medium, but it also works on a 
fixed drive (actually some broken UEFI firmwares can only launch the 
default boot loader, ignoring existing EFI boot entries).

grub-install as a --removable option to install the core image in the 
default boot loader location /boot/efi/efi/boot/boot<arch>.efi, assuming 
the EFI system partition is mounted on /boot/efi. You can also copy the 
core image from the standard Debian location 
/boot/efi/debian/grub<arch>.efi manually. <arch> may be ia32 or x64 
depending on the firmware architecture.

Alternatively, some EFI firmwares are sophisticated enough to allow you 
to select manually the EFI file to boot from without an EFI boot entry.

> Bringing
> up a machine from a legacy boot and then getting the infrastructure in
> place to be able to run grub-install is hard.

Yes, I acknowledged it was hard, but not extremely hard when you know 
the few steps.

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