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Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive?

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  Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-04-28 17:20 +0200
    Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2016-04-28 17:30 +0200
      Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-04-29 17:00 +0200
        Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2016-04-29 17:10 +0200
          Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2016-04-29 17:20 +0200
          Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-04-29 18:10 +0200
            Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2016-04-29 18:50 +0200
              Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-04-29 19:50 +0200
                Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2016-04-29 19:50 +0200
    Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2016-04-28 17:40 +0200
      Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-04-29 17:20 +0200
    Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2016-04-28 18:40 +0200
      Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-28 21:30 +0200
        Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-04-29 15:30 +0200
          Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-29 21:00 +0200
            Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-04-29 22:00 +0200
              Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-30 20:10 +0200
                Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-05-01 17:00 +0200
                  Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 17:00 +0200
                    Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-05-02 20:00 +0200
                      Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-05-02 21:20 +0200
                      Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 21:20 +0200
                        Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-05-03 12:20 +0200
                          Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:40 +0200
                            Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-05-14 14:10 +0200
                              Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Rodary Jacques <rodaryj@free.fr> - 2016-05-17 02:50 +0200
                          Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 15:50 +0200
                            Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-05-03 17:40 +0200
                              Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Piyavkin <piyavkin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 18:40 +0200
                          Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-05-04 17:40 +0200
                            Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-05-05 12:10 +0200
      Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-04-29 17:40 +0200
        Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-04-29 18:20 +0200
    Re: Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-04-28 21:30 +0200
    Extra links found on Ubuntu maullist Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-04-30 18:20 +0200
      Re: Extra links found on Ubuntu maullist Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-04-30 18:30 +0200

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#167171 — Multiple live iso's on a single bootable flash drive?

I have some specific use cases in mind.
Case 1.
Demo a variety of Debian DE's to friend having to carry only a 
single flash drive around rather than a stack of CDs. If they 
like one I would be able to an install then.
Case 2.
This would be a variation on the first except the target would be 
my self. It would be a convenient way to experiment with 
different setups without actually doing an install.
Case 3.
I tend to buy used equipment. They usually have windows on them. 
I would be able to verify their compatibility with my preferred 
setup. Flash drive more convenient to carry than a CD/DVD as I've 
done in the past.
Case 4.
Also a variation on Case 1. In this case the target is a friend 
living 1000 miles away. If he likes something he could use the 
built-in installer. I would probably put some apps he might not 
think of in the empty space of the drive.

I've some untried VAGUE ideas on how to accomplish.

Two questions:
Has this been done before?
Any comments?

TIA

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#167172

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Le decadi 10 floréal, an CCXXIV, Richard Owlett a écrit :
> Has this been done before?

It is possible if the ISO image cooperates. Last time I checked, quite some
time ago, the Debian install images did not, but I it may have changed, and
I do not know for Debian live.

The procedure I use:

http://www.normalesup.org/~george/comp/live_iso_usb/

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#167204

On 4/28/2016 10:22 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
> Le decadi 10 floréal, an CCXXIV, Richard Owlett a écrit :
>> Has this been done before?
>
> It is possible if the ISO image cooperates. Last time I checked, quite some
> time ago, the Debian install images did not, but I it may have changed, and
> I do not know for Debian live.
>
> The procedure I use:
>
> http://www.normalesup.org/~george/comp/live_iso_usb/
>
> Regards,
>

I'll have to try it to understand what author means by saying 
"Requires cooperation from the distribution: as any procedure in 
fact." under cons.
The mention of GRML <http://grml.org/> may solve a unrelated issue.
Thanks.

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#167206

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Le primidi 11 floréal, an CCXXIV, Richard Owlett a écrit :
> I'll have to try it to understand what author means by saying "Requires
> cooperation from the distribution: as any procedure in fact." under cons.

It is the same principle as software RAID or LVM : the kernel has low-level
support for these things, but userland utilities are needed to set things
up: parse the LVM metadata, detect the RAID arrays, etc. If the root
filesystem is on one of these, it is not possible to boot directly on it,
there must be an initrd with the aforementioned userland utilities.

To boot an ISO image on an USB device, the kernel would need to first mount
the USB device (already a small challenge, since USB is asynchronous, but I
believe it is widely supported nowadays), then find the ISO file on it,
mount it as loopback and pivot on it.

Some initrds provided by live images can do that, but not all.

> The mention of GRML <http://grml.org/> may solve a unrelated issue.

Hopefully, they will be unstuck at some point, the last release in 2014 is
starting to be old.

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#167207

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 05:06:44PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> 
> > The mention of GRML <http://grml.org/> may solve a unrelated issue.
> 
> Hopefully, they will be unstuck at some point, the last release in 2014 is
> starting to be old.


Note that development continues, they just haven't formalized a
release lately.  Getting the daily image is *usually* fine.

-dsr-

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#167213

On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:06:44 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Le primidi 11 floréal, an CCXXIV, Richard Owlett a écrit :
> > I'll have to try it to understand what author means by saying "Requires
> > cooperation from the distribution: as any procedure in fact." under cons.
> 
> It is the same principle as software RAID or LVM : the kernel has low-level
> support for these things, but userland utilities are needed to set things
> up: parse the LVM metadata, detect the RAID arrays, etc. If the root
> filesystem is on one of these, it is not possible to boot directly on it,
> there must be an initrd with the aforementioned userland utilities.
> 
> To boot an ISO image on an USB device, the kernel would need to first mount
> the USB device (already a small challenge, since USB is asynchronous, but I
> believe it is widely supported nowadays), then find the ISO file on it,
> mount it as loopback and pivot on it.
> 
> Some initrds provided by live images can do that, but not all.

*All* Debian live images (the focus of this thread) are bootable from a
USB stick by GRUB. Non-Debian live images may require a particular
approach to enable USB stick booting but I have not found one yet which
cannot be cajoled into doing it.

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#167217

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Le primidi 11 floréal, an CCXXIV, Brian a écrit :
> *All* Debian live images (the focus of this thread) are bootable from a
> USB stick by GRUB.

Are you sure you are talking about the same thing as me? I am talking about
booting the image copied as a file on the stick, not copied raw on the
stick.

At the time I wrote the instructions page I pointed earlier, Debian install
images could not do the former.

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#167218

On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 18:45:16 +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

> Le primidi 11 floréal, an CCXXIV, Brian a écrit :
> > *All* Debian live images (the focus of this thread) are bootable from a
> > USB stick by GRUB.
> 
> Are you sure you are talking about the same thing as me? I am talking about
> booting the image copied as a file on the stick, not copied raw on the
> stick.

I'm positive. :) Please see the final portion of Piyavkin's mail.

As for copying the image raw to a partition with dd - that also works.
An example:

  menuentry "Debian Live KDE" {
  search --label --set=root "Debian wheezy 20131014-01:18"
  linux /live/vmlinuz2 boot=live config quiet splash
  initrd /live/initrd2.img
  }

A little more work than using loopback with a file copied to the stick
but it can cater for images where loopback is of no help (like Debian
installer images). It requires some juggling with partition sizes when
using multiple images but my present stick has sixteen partitions.

> At the time I wrote the instructions page I pointed earlier, Debian install
> images could not do the former.

Changes creep up on us unawares. 

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#167219

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Le primidi 11 floréal, an CCXXIV, Brian a écrit :
> I'm positive. :) Please see the final portion of Piyavkin's mail.

Then that is good news.

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#167173

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:
> Has this been done before?

It seems so. Google "boot iso image from hard disk" found me
among many others

  http://www.howtogeek.com/196933/how-to-boot-linux-iso-images-directly-from-your-hard-drive/?PageSpeed=noscript

which mentions a "GRUB Live ISO Multiboot project".
Probably

  https://github.com/thias/glim


> Any comments?

Please keep me informed about your effort and success.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#167208

On 4/28/2016 10:39 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Richard Owlett wrote:
>> Has this been done before?
>
> It seems so. Google "boot iso image from hard disk" found me
> among many others
>
>    http://www.howtogeek.com/196933/how-to-boot-linux-iso-images-directly-from-your-hard-drive/?PageSpeed=noscript
>
> which mentions a "GRUB Live ISO Multiboot project".
> Probably
>
>    https://github.com/thias/glim
>
>
>> Any comments?
>
> Please keep me informed about your effort and success.
>
>

Normally I do a DuckDuckGo search [Google is annoying] before 
posting. This time I was attempting to gather my thoughts and 
something postable resulted. In any case I would have never seen 
the links you posted as I not have included "hard disk" in search 
string. However reading it triggers other questions which may be 
fruitful.

I just used "boot multiple iso images from flash drive" [w/o 
quotes] as my search criteria in both DuckDuckGo and Google. Many 
leads worth perusing.

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#167177

On 2016-04-28, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>
> I've some untried VAGUE ideas on how to accomplish.

Maybe this would work if I'm understanding you correctly:

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/boot-multiple-iso-from-usb-via-grub2-using-linux/#more-5352

> Two questions:
> Has this been done before?
> Any comments?
>
> TIA
>
>
>


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

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#167181

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Hi all!

On 28.04.2016 19:31, Curt wrote:
> On 2016-04-28, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>> I've some untried VAGUE ideas on how to accomplish.
> Maybe this would work if I'm understanding you correctly:
>
> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/boot-multiple-iso-from-usb-via-grub2-using-linux/#more-5352
>
>> Two questions:
>> Has this been done before?
>> Any comments?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>>
>

Yep, it can be done and pretty easy. I've done (been doing) it using 
some instructions from the pendrivelinux.com.


The idea is simple:

1. Install grub2 on a USB-drive.

2. Place there .iso image (in root of the drive or in some directory as 
you like).

3. Use in the grub.cfg instructions like such:

menuentry "Xubuntu 14.04.1 Desktop i386 ISO" {
  set isofile="/xubuntu-14.04.1-desktop-i386.iso"
  loopback loop $isofile
  linux (loop)/casper/vmlinuz boot=casper iso-scan/filename=$isofile 
noeject noprompt splash --
  initrd (loop)/casper/initrd.lz
}

4. Profit!


Images from Ubuntu family works fine. As to the Debian there was some 
weirdness (I don't know if it still persists in newer versions), but it 
is possible to dodge it. Simple way (from here 
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Multiboot_USB_drive#Debian ) is:

0. Do steps 1 and 2 from list above.

1. Download proper initramfs (which matches your desirable Debian .iso 
image) from here:
https://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz
https://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-i386/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz
http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/i386/initrd.gz
etc.

2. Place it somewhere on the USB-drive (in /deb/hdd directory, for example).

3. Use such instructions in grub.cfg:

menuentry "Debian 7.8.0 Desktop i386 Gnome CD ISO (CD Install; 
/deb/hdd/initrd.gz)" {
  set isofile="/debian-7.8.0-i386-CD-1.iso"
  set initrdfile='/deb/hdd/initrd.gz'
  loopback loop0 $isofile
  linux (loop0)/install.386/vmlinuz iso-scan/ask_second_pass=true 
iso-scan/filename=$isofile priority=low
# initrd (loop0)/install.386/initrd.gz
  initrd $initrdfile
}

4. Profit again!


Debian Live iso works without additional downloads (some kind of 
self-sufficient). It is possible to use fromiso param and to provide 
precise path to your iso and address your USB-drive by UID like this 
(theoretically it should speed up the process):

menuentry "Debian 7.8.0 Desktop i386 Xfce ISO (LIVE from ISO)" {
  set isofile="/debian-live-7.8.0-i386-xfce-desktop.iso"
  loopback loop0 $isofile
  linux (loop0)/live/vmlinuz1 boot=live 
fromiso=/dev/disk/by-uuid/19C5-2FB2$isofile live-media-path=/live config
  initrd (loop0)/live/initrd1.img
}


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167197

On Thu 28 Apr 2016 at 22:26:33 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:

> On 28.04.2016 19:31, Curt wrote:
> >On 2016-04-28, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> >>I've some untried VAGUE ideas on how to accomplish.
> >Maybe this would work if I'm understanding you correctly:
> >
> >http://www.pendrivelinux.com/boot-multiple-iso-from-usb-via-grub2-using-linux/#more-5352
> >
> >>Two questions:
> >>Has this been done before?
> >>Any comments?
> 
> Yep, it can be done and pretty easy. I've done (been doing) it using some
> instructions from the pendrivelinux.com.
> 
> The idea is simple:
> 
> 1. Install grub2 on a USB-drive.

The drive should first be partitioned and the partitiion(s) formatted. I
use FAT16 and vfat. If it is an installer image which GRUB is booting
the fat and vfat modules are available from the start of the install.

> 2. Place there .iso image (in root of the drive or in some directory as you
> like).
> 
> 3. Use in the grub.cfg instructions like such:
> 
> menuentry "Xubuntu 14.04.1 Desktop i386 ISO" {
>  set isofile="/xubuntu-14.04.1-desktop-i386.iso"
>  loopback loop $isofile
>  linux (loop)/casper/vmlinuz boot=casper iso-scan/filename=$isofile noeject
> noprompt splash --
>  initrd (loop)/casper/initrd.lz
> }
> 
> 4. Profit!

It is worth stressing that 'boot=casper' is for Ubuntu-based live images
only. It will not work with a Debian live image. I think the same is
true of 'iso-scan/filename=...'.

> Images from Ubuntu family works fine. As to the Debian there was some
> weirdness (I don't know if it still persists in newer versions), but it is
> possible to dodge it. Simple way (from here

You have switched from talking about Debian live images to installer
images. GRUB's loopback facility cannot be used with them because the
iso-scan and load-iso packages are only included in the hd-media initrd.
It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is by
design.

There should be no expectation of GRUB's loopback working to install
Debian using just d-i's initrd in the ISO.

> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Multiboot_USB_drive#Debian ) is:
> 
> 0. Do steps 1 and 2 from list above.
> 
> 1. Download proper initramfs (which matches your desirable Debian .iso
> image) from here:
> https://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz
> https://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-i386/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz
> http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/i386/initrd.gz
> etc.
> 
> 2. Place it somewhere on the USB-drive (in /deb/hdd directory, for example).
> 
> 3. Use such instructions in grub.cfg:
> 
> menuentry "Debian 7.8.0 Desktop i386 Gnome CD ISO (CD Install;
> /deb/hdd/initrd.gz)" {
>  set isofile="/debian-7.8.0-i386-CD-1.iso"
>  set initrdfile='/deb/hdd/initrd.gz'
>  loopback loop0 $isofile
>  linux (loop0)/install.386/vmlinuz iso-scan/ask_second_pass=true
> iso-scan/filename=$isofile priority=low
> # initrd (loop0)/install.386/initrd.gz
>  initrd $initrdfile
> }
> 
> 4. Profit again!
> 
> Debian Live iso works without additional downloads (some kind of
> self-sufficient). It is possible to use fromiso param and to provide precise

The live ISO initrds contain sufficient to scan and find the ISO and
provide a loop device.

> path to your iso and address your USB-drive by UID like this (theoretically
> it should speed up the process):
> 
> menuentry "Debian 7.8.0 Desktop i386 Xfce ISO (LIVE from ISO)" {
>  set isofile="/debian-live-7.8.0-i386-xfce-desktop.iso"
>  loopback loop0 $isofile
>  linux (loop0)/live/vmlinuz1 boot=live
> fromiso=/dev/disk/by-uuid/19C5-2FB2$isofile live-media-path=/live config
>  initrd (loop0)/live/initrd1.img
> }

vmlinuz1 and initrd1.img are for booting live-586. Files in the isolinux
directory of the ISO should be consulted for other kernels and initrds
to use.

I'd suggest 'findiso=$isofile' as a possible replacement for the
'fromiso=...' directive.

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#167221

On 29.04.2016 16:21, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 28 Apr 2016 at 22:26:33 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:
>
>> On 28.04.2016 19:31, Curt wrote:
>>> On 2016-04-28, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>>>> I've some untried VAGUE ideas on how to accomplish.
>>> Maybe this would work if I'm understanding you correctly:
>>>
>>> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/boot-multiple-iso-from-usb-via-grub2-using-linux/#more-5352
>>>
>>>> Two questions:
>>>> Has this been done before?
>>>> Any comments?
>> Yep, it can be done and pretty easy. I've done (been doing) it using some
>> instructions from the pendrivelinux.com.
>>
>> The idea is simple:
>>
>> 1. Install grub2 on a USB-drive.
> The drive should first be partitioned and the partitiion(s) formatted. I
> use FAT16 and vfat. If it is an installer image which GRUB is booting
> the fat and vfat modules are available from the start of the install.
>
>> 2. Place there .iso image (in root of the drive or in some directory as you
>> like).
>>
>> 3. Use in the grub.cfg instructions like such:
>>
>> menuentry "Xubuntu 14.04.1 Desktop i386 ISO" {
>>   set isofile="/xubuntu-14.04.1-desktop-i386.iso"
>>   loopback loop $isofile
>>   linux (loop)/casper/vmlinuz boot=casper iso-scan/filename=$isofile noeject
>> noprompt splash --
>>   initrd (loop)/casper/initrd.lz
>> }
>>
>> 4. Profit!
> It is worth stressing that 'boot=casper' is for Ubuntu-based live images
> only. It will not work with a Debian live image. I think the same is
> true of 'iso-scan/filename=...'.
>
>> Images from Ubuntu family works fine. As to the Debian there was some
>> weirdness (I don't know if it still persists in newer versions), but it is
>> possible to dodge it. Simple way (from here
> You have switched from talking about Debian live images to installer
> images. GRUB's loopback facility cannot be used with them because the
> iso-scan and load-iso packages are only included in the hd-media initrd.
> It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is by
> design.
>
> There should be no expectation of GRUB's loopback working to install
> Debian using just d-i's initrd in the ISO.
>
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Multiboot_USB_drive#Debian ) is:
>>
>> 0. Do steps 1 and 2 from list above.
>>
>> 1. Download proper initramfs (which matches your desirable Debian .iso
>> image) from here:
>> https://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz
>> https://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-i386/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz
>> http://mirrors.kernel.org/debian/dists/stable/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/i386/initrd.gz
>> etc.
>>
>> 2. Place it somewhere on the USB-drive (in /deb/hdd directory, for example).
>>
>> 3. Use such instructions in grub.cfg:
>>
>> menuentry "Debian 7.8.0 Desktop i386 Gnome CD ISO (CD Install;
>> /deb/hdd/initrd.gz)" {
>>   set isofile="/debian-7.8.0-i386-CD-1.iso"
>>   set initrdfile='/deb/hdd/initrd.gz'
>>   loopback loop0 $isofile
>>   linux (loop0)/install.386/vmlinuz iso-scan/ask_second_pass=true
>> iso-scan/filename=$isofile priority=low
>> # initrd (loop0)/install.386/initrd.gz
>>   initrd $initrdfile
>> }
>>
>> 4. Profit again!
>>
>> Debian Live iso works without additional downloads (some kind of
>> self-sufficient). It is possible to use fromiso param and to provide precise
> The live ISO initrds contain sufficient to scan and find the ISO and
> provide a loop device.
>
>> path to your iso and address your USB-drive by UID like this (theoretically
>> it should speed up the process):
>>
>> menuentry "Debian 7.8.0 Desktop i386 Xfce ISO (LIVE from ISO)" {
>>   set isofile="/debian-live-7.8.0-i386-xfce-desktop.iso"
>>   loopback loop0 $isofile
>>   linux (loop0)/live/vmlinuz1 boot=live
>> fromiso=/dev/disk/by-uuid/19C5-2FB2$isofile live-media-path=/live config
>>   initrd (loop0)/live/initrd1.img
>> }
> vmlinuz1 and initrd1.img are for booting live-586. Files in the isolinux
> directory of the ISO should be consulted for other kernels and initrds
> to use.
>
> I'd suggest 'findiso=$isofile' as a possible replacement for the
> 'fromiso=...' directive.
>
>

Yes, USB-drive should be partitioned and formatted properly (though, 
FAT16 can be a problem with relatively fat images or partitions, I 
guess; FAT32 works OK). Just have skipped the preparations as obvious 
and thoroughly described part in the pendrivelinux.com instructions (see 
the link above). I've intended to dwell on the more interesting part of 
the story.

It worth to point out that all the stated menuentries are excerpts from 
my current grub.cfg from USB-drive with a pile of .iso images on it. I'm 
using both Debian live images and Debian installer images (hd-media, 
netboot). All that tested (up to Debian 7.8) and works fine.

Though, I agree, parameters may vary. May be «fromiso» in the last 
example is a better choice indeed. I'd just experimented with related 
instructions until it started working for me and I'm done.


 > It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is 
by design.

Why such design?


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167223

On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 21:57:53 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:

> Though, I agree, parameters may vary. May be «fromiso» in the last example
> is a better choice indeed. I'd just experimented with related instructions
> until it started working for me and I'm done.

Look carefully. I didn't recommend 'fromiso'.

> > It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is by
> design.
> 
> Why such design?

Suppose you want to install Debian; that's the objective after all. An
isohybrid allows mounting the USB stick directly. You dd/cat/cp the
image to a USB stick and boot and there you are - Debian is installed.

What does loop-mounting of an ISO file with GRUB give you?

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#167247

On 29.04.2016 22:59, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 21:57:53 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:
>
>> Though, I agree, parameters may vary. May be «fromiso» in the last example
>> is a better choice indeed. I'd just experimented with related instructions
>> until it started working for me and I'm done.
> Look carefully. I didn't recommend 'fromiso'.
OK. ) Then, archlinux.org wiki page which I referenced did. But quite 
opposite: to prefer fromiso over findiso.
I don't remember if I tried it, and if it works, but now I think that 
findiso may be better option, because it's at least more portable (let 
say so; menu records do not tied up to USB-drive UID). As to differences 
in speed — I don't know. Don't think it may be any significant issue.

>
>>> It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is by
>> design.
>>
>> Why such design?
> Suppose you want to install Debian; that's the objective after all. An
> isohybrid allows mounting the USB stick directly. You dd/cat/cp the
> image to a USB stick and boot and there you are - Debian is installed.
>
> What does loop-mounting of an ISO file with GRUB give you?
>

With Ubuntu distrib you can do the same.
And still you can run it straight from .iso without additional quest and 
use of shaman drum.
What's wrong with it?


In my view, it is much more convenient to download new .iso files (or 
replace old ones) straight to USB-drive and copy+paste one more 
menuentry in grub.cfg (working in any OS which supports FAT), than to do 
the same (.iso download in some dedicated folder, changing in grub.cfg) 
plus partitioning/repartitioning (with calculation of proper partitions' 
sizes every time when you want to use more then 2 distros on 1 
USB-drive) and copying (which requires *nix-like OS already running). If 
I understand the process correctly.

And much more safer, I believe. Because in the first case there are 
lesser chances that in a stressful & hasty time doing one more

cp debian-hot-new.iso /dev/sda
sync

you may end up like:«Oh, wait… was it sdb?.. wait… and what was sda 
then?.. Oh… that was my 40+ years long project in astrophysics… THANK 
YOU, Debian, for your design!»


I think KISS principle should be applied not only to tools, but to the 
user experience too. Which may be more important. Cause, in the end, 
everything we do, we do for others. And who ignores it (for some their 
reason) will suffer. For soft production one of the rules may sound 
like: «If you create unnecessary obstacles in installation process, you 
hinder distribution and hence adoption. Good luck!»


(Thank you for attention! I give the floor to the next speaker.)


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167297

On Sat 30 Apr 2016 at 21:02:56 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:

> On 29.04.2016 22:59, Brian wrote:
> >On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 21:57:53 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:

[...Snip...]

> >>>It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is by
> >>design.
> >>
> >>Why such design?
> >Suppose you want to install Debian; that's the objective after all. An
> >isohybrid allows mounting the USB stick directly. You dd/cat/cp the
> >image to a USB stick and boot and there you are - Debian is installed.
> >
> >What does loop-mounting of an ISO file with GRUB give you?
> 
> With Ubuntu distrib you can do the same.
> And still you can run it straight from .iso without additional quest and use
> of shaman drum.
> What's wrong with it?

Nothing, but a Ubuntu live ISO serves a different purpose from the
Debian installer. Which is not to say enhancing a netinst ISO is not
worthwhile and would benefit a few people. Patches to have iso-scan in
these ISOs' initrds were provided a couple of years ago and booting an
ISO with GRUB is on the installer team's list of feature requests.
Meanwhile, there is hd-media and a extra stanza in grub.cfg.

> In my view, it is much more convenient to download new .iso files (or
> replace old ones) straight to USB-drive and copy+paste one more menuentry in
> grub.cfg (working in any OS which supports FAT), than to do the same (.iso
> download in some dedicated folder, changing in grub.cfg) plus
> partitioning/repartitioning (with calculation of proper partitions' sizes
> every time when you want to use more then 2 distros on 1 USB-drive) and
> copying (which requires *nix-like OS already running). If I understand the
> process correctly.

The "convenience" argument is a decent one, although it does apply to
quite a narrow use-case.
 
> And much more safer, I believe. Because in the first case there are lesser
> chances that in a stressful & hasty time doing one more
> 
> cp debian-hot-new.iso /dev/sda
> sync
> 
> you may end up like:«Oh, wait… was it sdb?.. wait… and what was sda then?..
> Oh… that was my 40+ years long project in astrophysics… THANK YOU, Debian,
> for your design!»

Not a decent argument. Operations such as partitioning and formatting a
USB stick and installing GRUB to its MBR all require root privilege.
 
> I think KISS principle should be applied not only to tools, but to the user
> experience too. Which may be more important. Cause, in the end, everything
> we do, we do for others. And who ignores it (for some their reason) will
> suffer. For soft production one of the rules may sound like: «If you create
> unnecessary obstacles in installation process, you hinder distribution and
> hence adoption. Good luck!»

Advice to a newcomer for installing Debian
------------------------------------------
cat ISO to stick. Boot.

Alternative advice to a newcomer for installing Debian
------------------------------------------------------

Clean stick with dd. Partition stick. Format partition. Copy ISO to
partition. Install GRUB. Construct a grub.cfg and copy to partition.
Boot.

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#167368

On 01.05.2016 17:55, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 30 Apr 2016 at 21:02:56 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:
>
>> On 29.04.2016 22:59, Brian wrote:
>>> On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 21:57:53 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:
> [...Snip...]
>
>>>>> It is a source of contention (and a number of bug reports) but it is by
>>>> design.
>>>>
>>>> Why such design?
>>> Suppose you want to install Debian; that's the objective after all. An
>>> isohybrid allows mounting the USB stick directly. You dd/cat/cp the
>>> image to a USB stick and boot and there you are - Debian is installed.
>>>
>>> What does loop-mounting of an ISO file with GRUB give you?
>> With Ubuntu distrib you can do the same.
>> And still you can run it straight from .iso without additional quest and use
>> of shaman drum.
>> What's wrong with it?
> Nothing, but a Ubuntu live ISO serves a different purpose from the
> Debian installer. Which is not to say enhancing a netinst ISO is not
> worthwhile and would benefit a few people. Patches to have iso-scan in
> these ISOs' initrds were provided a couple of years ago and booting an
> ISO with GRUB is on the installer team's list of feature requests.
> Meanwhile, there is hd-media and a extra stanza in grub.cfg.

Well, and that's a good part of the story.
As I can see, the all needed functionality is already here. It just 
waiting for some reason to be incorporated in distros.

>> In my view, it is much more convenient to download new .iso files (or
>> replace old ones) straight to USB-drive and copy+paste one more menuentry in
>> grub.cfg (working in any OS which supports FAT), than to do the same (.iso
>> download in some dedicated folder, changing in grub.cfg) plus
>> partitioning/repartitioning (with calculation of proper partitions' sizes
>> every time when you want to use more then 2 distros on 1 USB-drive) and
>> copying (which requires *nix-like OS already running). If I understand the
>> process correctly.
> The "convenience" argument is a decent one, although it does apply to
> quite a narrow use-case.
>   
>> And much more safer, I believe. Because in the first case there are lesser
>> chances that in a stressful & hasty time doing one more
>>
>> cp debian-hot-new.iso /dev/sda
>> sync
>>
>> you may end up like:«Oh, wait… was it sdb?.. wait… and what was sda then?..
>> Oh… that was my 40+ years long project in astrophysics… THANK YOU, Debian,
>> for your design!»
> Not a decent argument. Operations such as partitioning and formatting a
> USB stick and installing GRUB to its MBR all require root privilege.
>   

Of course, but the point is: with which «case there are lesser chances» 
to shoot in own leg:

Case 1: do sudo work and pay proper attention 1 time and fit for all.

Case 2: do it every time when you update your boot collection on the 
USB-drive.

>> I think KISS principle should be applied not only to tools, but to the user
>> experience too. Which may be more important. Cause, in the end, everything
>> we do, we do for others. And who ignores it (for some their reason) will
>> suffer. For soft production one of the rules may sound like: «If you create
>> unnecessary obstacles in installation process, you hinder distribution and
>> hence adoption. Good luck!»
> Advice to a newcomer for installing Debian
> ------------------------------------------
> cat ISO to stick. Boot.
>
> Alternative advice to a newcomer for installing Debian
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Clean stick with dd. Partition stick. Format partition. Copy ISO to
> partition. Install GRUB. Construct a grub.cfg and copy to partition.
> Boot.
>

No-no, Brian, look at the situation from slightly different angle:

1-st, it is not a XOR choice. Proper design should provide both options. 
Or either part of potential users will be lost, as I said.

2-nd, you are a bit exaggerating the differences between the possible 
installing ways for newcomer. In your 2-nd alternative their already has 
partitioned and formatted stick (which shipped with FAT by default). 
Installation of grub (by one line of command) and copypasting menuentry 
in text file from official wiki (where the information should live) is 
not harder task then performing cat, trying not to kill fs on the PC's 
main hdd in the process. But the real fun starts when our newcomer wanna 
have more than one distro (cause he's a newcomer and wanna try some 
variants first to choose most promising one) but has only one USB-drive. 
And the 2-nd alternative now actually doesn't exist for newcomer at all, 
because it is too complicated for him.

3-rd, I guess, typical Debian user is not a total Linux newbie, who's 
problem are an ordinary partitioning process or grub install. I guess, 
them more interested in such capabilities as to boot multiple 
OS/versions from one partition or to run installers from virtually any 
commont USB-drive (properly prepared in advance and easily 
reconfigurable in use). And unexplained complication here — that is a 
problem.

As living illustration to the last point we may look at our real 
situation: desirable multiboot from single flash drive (see subj of the 
thread). One solution suggests doing partitioning and all the hard stuff 
just once. Other — every time when new image added or old one changed 
and the complexity of the solution is growing with the changes. OK, I 
see that mapping .iso to stick is useful in some common situations (when 
you, for example, wish to present ready to use flash drive installer to 
someone else). But why the redundant work should be forced upon a user 
in a slightly more sophisticated situations? Can it lead to the 
situation when a skilled user (the target audience of the Debian) just 
be reluctant or simply tired repartitioning their USB-drive with every 
release and settle down with Linux distribs that do not demand to much 
without a reason?


Resume: I advocate that both alternatives should be presented in Debian 
distros. That'll make me happier.


Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

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#167387

On Mon 02 May 2016 at 17:54:35 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:

> On 01.05.2016 17:55, Brian wrote:
> >On Sat 30 Apr 2016 at 21:02:56 +0300, Piyavkin wrote:
> >
> >>What's wrong with it?
> >
> >Nothing, but a Ubuntu live ISO serves a different purpose from the
> >Debian installer. Which is not to say enhancing a netinst ISO is not
> >worthwhile and would benefit a few people. Patches to have iso-scan in
> >these ISOs' initrds were provided a couple of years ago and booting an
> >ISO with GRUB is on the installer team's list of feature requests.
> >Meanwhile, there is hd-media and a extra stanza in grub.cfg.
> 
> Well, and that's a good part of the story.
> As I can see, the all needed functionality is already here. It just waiting
> for some reason to be incorporated in distros.

Shall we compare like and like? Not a Ubuntu (or other live image) with
the Debian installer but a Ubuntu live image with a Debian live image.
All six of the Debian live images can be copied to a single partition
and a selected one booted with GRUB. No difference compared with Ubuntu.

Any of the running live images can be installed to hard disk, Again no
difference compared with Ubuntu.

Where's the problem for a new or experienced user? What need is there
for iso-scan to be incorporated into a netinst initrd?

> >Not a decent argument. Operations such as partitioning and formatting a
> >USB stick and installing GRUB to its MBR all require root privilege.
> 
> Of course, but the point is: with which «case there are lesser chances» to
> shoot in own leg:
> 
> Case 1: do sudo work and pay proper attention 1 time and fit for all.
> 
> Case 2: do it every time when you update your boot collection on the
> USB-drive.

The events are independent. Carrying out an operation more than once
does not change the probability of carrying it out correctly. I can
claim I have used 'ls -l' fifty times in a day without error. :)

(Incidentally, a simple udev .rules file avoids having to be root to
deal with a USB stick, so the issue doesn't arise for me).

[...Snip...]

> 3-rd, I guess, typical Debian user is not a total Linux newbie, who's
> problem are an ordinary partitioning process or grub install. I guess, them
> more interested in such capabilities as to boot multiple OS/versions from
> one partition or to run installers from virtually any commont USB-drive
> (properly prepared in advance and easily reconfigurable in use). And
> unexplained complication here — that is a problem.
> 
> As living illustration to the last point we may look at our real situation:
> desirable multiboot from single flash drive (see subj of the thread). One
> solution suggests doing partitioning and all the hard stuff just once. Other
> — every time when new image added or old one changed and the complexity of
> the solution is growing with the changes. OK, I see that mapping .iso to
> stick is useful in some common situations (when you, for example, wish to
> present ready to use flash drive installer to someone else). But why the
> redundant work should be forced upon a user in a slightly more sophisticated
> situations? Can it lead to the situation when a skilled user (the target
> audience of the Debian) just be reluctant or simply tired repartitioning
> their USB-drive with every release and settle down with Linux distribs that
> do not demand to much without a reason?

Nothing is forced upon a user. Six Debian live images. One partition.
Add new images when necessary. Install if you wish. Multiboot without
tears. The OP probably has it up and running by now.
 
> Resume: I advocate that both alternatives should be presented in Debian
> distros. That'll make me happier.

They are! You should be overjoyed.

If you have gained the impression that isco-scan in a netboot initrd
would not be unwelcome to me but I won't lose any sleep over its
omission, then you have interpreted my feelings correctly.

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