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running Linux without display

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  running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-01 16:20 +0200
    Re: running Linux without display jdd <jdd@dodin.org> - 2016-04-01 16:30 +0200
      Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-01 17:00 +0200
        Re: running Linux without display jdd <jdd@dodin.org> - 2016-04-01 17:10 +0200
          Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-01 17:20 +0200
            Re: running Linux without display jdd <jdd@dodin.org> - 2016-04-01 20:30 +0200
              Re: running Linux without display John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-04-01 21:20 +0200
                Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-02 13:50 +0200
              Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-02 13:40 +0200
                Re: running Linux without display Adam Wilson <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2016-04-03 07:30 +0200
    Re: running Linux without display Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2016-04-03 00:00 +0200
      Re: running Linux without display John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-04-03 00:10 +0200
        Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-03 04:50 +0200
      Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-03 04:40 +0200
        Re: running Linux without display Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2016-04-03 09:50 +0200
          Re: running Linux without display jdd <jdd@dodin.org> - 2016-04-03 10:00 +0200
          Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-03 13:20 +0200
            Re: running Linux without display John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-04-03 15:10 +0200
              Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-03 16:10 +0200
                Re: running Linux without display John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-04-03 17:10 +0200
                  Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-04 00:20 +0200
            Re: running Linux without display Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2016-04-03 16:30 +0200
    Re: running Linux without display Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2016-04-03 16:50 +0200
      Re: running Linux without display John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-04-03 17:00 +0200
      Re: running Linux without display Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2016-04-04 00:10 +0200
        Re: running Linux without display Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2016-04-04 00:50 +0200

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#166156 — running Linux without display

What g.u.i. app or apps prevent graphical user interface Linux from 
running if no display can be plugged into the computer?



--

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#166158

Le 01/04/2016 16:09, Jude DaShiell a écrit :
> What g.u.i. app or apps prevent graphical user interface Linux from
> running if no display can be plugged into the computer?
>
>
>
> --
>
none?

jdd

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#166160

Wrong.  Kalilinux Fedora sonargnulinux vinux and ubuntu all exhibit this 
behavior.  Been there done that and got the t-shirt to prove it.  If not 
an app or apps, then certainly settings within an app or apps do. 
Redhat 5.0 several years ago wouldn't even install since I had no mouse 
attached to the computer either at the time.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, jdd wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 10:20:11
> From: jdd <jdd@dodin.org>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Fri,  1 Apr 2016 14:20:32 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> Le 01/04/2016 16:09, Jude DaShiell a ?crit :
>> What g.u.i. app or apps prevent graphical user interface Linux from
>> running if no display can be plugged into the computer?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
> none?
>
> jdd
>
>

-- 

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#166161

Le 01/04/2016 16:52, Jude DaShiell a écrit :
> Wrong.  Kalilinux Fedora sonargnulinux vinux and ubuntu

I can install most linux distros on my headless online server, so I'm 
sure no monitor is necessary, I can't have any

jdd

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#166162

Have you tried installing using orca and when finished how far did you 
get when you booted into your newly installed system for the first time?

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, jdd wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 11:04:27
> From: jdd <jdd@dodin.org>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Fri,  1 Apr 2016 15:04:46 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> Le 01/04/2016 16:52, Jude DaShiell a ?crit :
>> Wrong.  Kalilinux Fedora sonargnulinux vinux and ubuntu
>
> I can install most linux distros on my headless online server, so I'm sure no 
> monitor is necessary, I can't have any
>
> jdd
>
>

-- 

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#166170

Le 01/04/2016 17:14, Jude DaShiell a écrit :
> Have you tried installing using orca and when finished how far did you
> get when you booted into your newly installed system for the first time?
>

I usually make a minimal install and then install only what is 
necessary, most often xfce. It's often very difficult to completely 
avoid any X, and X forwarding is convenient

jdd

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#166171

jdd writes:
> I usually make a minimal install and then install only what is
> necessary, most often xfce. It's often very difficult to completely
> avoid any X, and X forwarding is convenient

You don't need an X server unless you have a display that you want to
put graphics on.  X clients require only the X libraries (though some
may erroneously depend on an X server).
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#166193

For accessibility users, firefox if nothing else is pretty much 
essential or google chrome with chromevox for access to much of the web 
especially for commerce transactions.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, John Hasler wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 15:16:21
> From: John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Fri,  1 Apr 2016 19:16:46 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> jdd writes:
>> I usually make a minimal install and then install only what is
>> necessary, most often xfce. It's often very difficult to completely
>> avoid any X, and X forwarding is convenient
>
> You don't need an X server unless you have a display that you want to
> put graphics on.  X clients require only the X libraries (though some
> may erroneously depend on an X server).
>

-- 

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#166192

I have yet to try xfce since accessibility support from what I've read 
to date is very immature compared to mate and gnome possibly as poor as 
kde.  I have spare hard drives and can try this out and will find out 
what happens with xfce a little later this weekend.  I'm running 
computers not servers on my end so due to technology differences beyond 
expanded memory I would suspect server experience to be different than 
is the case on computers.  How is xfce with memory compared to mate?

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016, jdd wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 14:19:57
> From: jdd <jdd@dodin.org>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Fri,  1 Apr 2016 18:20:14 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> Le 01/04/2016 17:14, Jude DaShiell a ?crit :
>> Have you tried installing using orca and when finished how far did you
>> get when you booted into your newly installed system for the first time?
>> 
>
> I usually make a minimal install and then install only what is necessary, 
> most often xfce. It's often very difficult to completely avoid any X, and X 
> forwarding is convenient
>
> jdd
>
>

-- 

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#166228

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 07:38:03 -0400 (EDT)
Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:

> I have yet to try xfce since accessibility support from what I've read 
> to date is very immature compared to mate and gnome possibly as poor as 
> kde.  I have spare hard drives and can try this out and will find out 
> what happens with xfce a little later this weekend.

I'm not really sure what accessibility is like in GNOME these days, but I would assume it has only gotten better, since GNOME is our flagship DE. Usability, on the other hand, is still just as shit.

MATE and Xfce are more or less equal (as of 1.8 and 4.10) on the accessibility side of things- they just require a bit more work to get set up for the nature of the impairment in question. Both MATE and Xfce offer integration with screen readers (Orca, etc.) and programs for visual assistance, as well as a whole host of keyboard and mouse settings designed to make life easier for impaired users.

> I'm running 
> computers not servers on my end so due to technology differences beyond 
> expanded memory I would suspect server experience to be different than 
> is the case on computers.

"Server" is a term used to describe a computer performing a particular role. Any computer can become a server simply by using it as a server. If I were to get a static IP and install Apache or nginx on my laptop and start *serving* web pages, my computer would be a server.

I presume you meant computers specifically *designed* to be used as dedicated servers.

>  How is xfce with memory compared to mate?

Virtually the same. MATE uses ~300 MB of memory on my system, while Xfce used to average around ~250. Unless your RAM is *very* limited, either should be fine, and both are pretty lightweight (as DEs go these days).

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#166212

> What g.u.i. app or apps prevent graphical user interface Linux from running
> if no display can be plugged into the computer?

I don't understand the question.  But I have the vague impression that
maybe Xvfb or Xdummy is part of the answer.


        Stefan

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#166213

Package: xserver-xorg-video-dummy
Source: xserver-xorg-video-dummy (1:0.3.7-1)
Version: 1:0.3.7-1+b5
Installed-Size: 45.1 kB
Maintainer: Debian X Strike Force <debian-x@lists.debian.org>
Provides: xorg-driver-video
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.5), xorg-video-abi-20, xserver-xorg-core (>= 2:1.17.99.902)
Tag: admin::hardware, hardware::video, implemented-in::c, role::shared-lib,
 use::driver, x11::library
Section: x11
Priority: optional
Download-Size: 18.7 kB
APT-Sources: http://debian.csail.mit.edu/debian/ sid/main amd64 Packages
Description: X.Org X server -- dummy display driver
 This package provides a 'dummy' display driver, which does not actually
 display anything.
 .
 More information about X.Org can be found at:
 <URL:http://www.X.org>
 .
 This package is built from the X.org xf86-video-dummy driver module.

-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#166220

thanks John, is apt-get useable inside of ash during a system install? 
For my current situation I would need this package installed on a 
machine before installation finishes.

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016, John Hasler wrote:

> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 18:06:53
> From: John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Sat,  2 Apr 2016 22:07:17 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> Package: xserver-xorg-video-dummy
> Source: xserver-xorg-video-dummy (1:0.3.7-1)
> Version: 1:0.3.7-1+b5
> Installed-Size: 45.1 kB
> Maintainer: Debian X Strike Force <debian-x@lists.debian.org>
> Provides: xorg-driver-video
> Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.5), xorg-video-abi-20, xserver-xorg-core (>= 2:1.17.99.902)
> Tag: admin::hardware, hardware::video, implemented-in::c, role::shared-lib,
> use::driver, x11::library
> Section: x11
> Priority: optional
> Download-Size: 18.7 kB
> APT-Sources: http://debian.csail.mit.edu/debian/ sid/main amd64 Packages
> Description: X.Org X server -- dummy display driver
> This package provides a 'dummy' display driver, which does not actually
> display anything.
> .
> More information about X.Org can be found at:
> <URL:http://www.X.org>
> .
> This package is built from the X.org xf86-video-dummy driver module.
>
>

-- 

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#166219

screen reader does not start and I don't get to login prompt yet.  One 
more thing I can try without xdummy or xvfb then it will be time to try 
those two packages and see if either help.

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:53:59
> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Sat,  2 Apr 2016 21:54:24 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
>> What g.u.i. app or apps prevent graphical user interface Linux from running
>> if no display can be plugged into the computer?
>
> I don't understand the question.  But I have the vague impression that
> maybe Xvfb or Xdummy is part of the answer.
>
>
>        Stefan
>
>

-- 

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#166233

> screen reader does not start and I don't get to login prompt yet.

I still have no idea what you're trying to do.
IIUC you have a machine without a display, yet you want to run a screen
reader.  What have you done that would make you hope you'd get a screen
reader and/or a login prompt?


        Stefan

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#166234

Le 03/04/2016 07:45, Stefan Monnier a écrit :
>> screen reader does not start and I don't get to login prompt yet.
>
> I still have no idea what you're trying to do.
> IIUC you have a machine without a display, yet you want to run a screen
> reader.  What have you done that would make you hope you'd get a screen
> reader and/or a login prompt?
>
>
>          Stefan
>
IMHO, the "without display" should read "without monitor connected".

I was not clear for me neither at the beginning :-)

a screen reader reads memory, not actual display, so it should work. Of 
course, debugging should be easier with a monitor connected and some 
people in front able to see it :-)

jdd

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#166256

The screen reader doesn't read the screen but what gets sent at the 
screen.  With the right software and configuration, things work 
correctly.  It's possible to install talkingarchlinux 
http://talkingarch.tk/ without a screen and continue to use it without a 
screen once installation is finished.  That version of linux is rather 
unique in this respect.  Could it be generally a linux install bug in 
cases where no display is attached a dummy package of some type is not 
automatically installed to cover that case?  It is necessary to run 
Windows without a display in order to enable java access bridge on 
windows and that worked as far back as Windows 7.

On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 01:45:55
> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> To: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com>
> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> 
>> screen reader does not start and I don't get to login prompt yet.
>
> I still have no idea what you're trying to do.
> IIUC you have a machine without a display, yet you want to run a screen
> reader.  What have you done that would make you hope you'd get a screen
> reader and/or a login prompt?
>
>
>        Stefan
>

-- 

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#166259

Jude DaShiell writes:
> It's possible to install talkingarchlinux http://talkingarch.tk/
> without a screen and continue to use it without a screen once
> installation is finished.  That version of linux is rather unique in
> this respect.  Could it be generally a linux install bug in cases
> where no display is attached a dummy package of some type is not
> automatically installed to cover that case?

Is it that you are trying to install Debian on a machine with no
monitor, or that you are trying to install The X Window System on a
machine with no monitor?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#166264

On Sun, 3 Apr 2016, John Hasler wrote:

> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2016 09:00:10
> From: John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: running Linux without display
> Resent-Date: Sun,  3 Apr 2016 13:00:34 +0000 (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> 
> Jude DaShiell writes:
>> It's possible to install talkingarchlinux http://talkingarch.tk/
>> without a screen and continue to use it without a screen once
>> installation is finished.  That version of linux is rather unique in
>> this respect.  Could it be generally a linux install bug in cases
>> where no display is attached a dummy package of some type is not
>> automatically installed to cover that case?
>
> Is it that you are trying to install Debian on a machine with no
> monitor, or that you are trying to install The X Window System on a
> machine with no monitor?
>
I figure to go at this first with a basic screen reader accessible debian 
install then install xfce or mate and get orca operational in that 
environment.  The machine taking the install has good memory and its video 
connector is one for which I have no cable now.  I normally hit s at the 
boot prompt and do a debian install that way first that way I'm assured of 
a good command line installation no matter what happens with the graphical 
user interface environment.

  --

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#166271

Jude DaShiell writes:
> The machine taking the install has good memory and its video connector
> is one for which I have no cable now.  I normally hit s at the boot
> prompt and do a debian install that way first that way I'm assured of
> a good command line installation no matter what happens with the
> graphical user interface environment.

Then you should be able to install a dummy X server from your
command-line environment and then install your desktop environment.  Is
the problem that you can't get the command-line install to work?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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