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Installing newer kernels

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  Installing newer kernels William Lee Valentine <vsc@lobo.net> - 2016-03-17 23:30 +0100
    Re: Installing newer kernels Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 00:00 +0100
    Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-18 03:30 +0100
      Re: Installing newer kernels Sven Arvidsson <sa@whiz.se> - 2016-03-18 09:30 +0100
        Re: Installing newer kernels <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-03-18 09:50 +0100
        Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-18 18:30 +0100
          Re: Installing newer kernels Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 19:00 +0100
            Re: Installing newer kernels Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2016-03-18 19:10 +0100
              Re: Installing newer kernels Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2016-03-18 22:20 +0100
                Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-19 02:50 +0100
                  Re: Installing newer kernels Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2016-03-19 11:40 +0100
                  Re: Installing newer kernels chrisb@localhost.localdomain - 2016-03-23 09:00 +0100
                    Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-24 03:30 +0100
                      Re: Installing newer kernels John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2016-03-24 03:50 +0100
                        Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-24 04:10 +0100
                          Re: Installing newer kernels Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2016-03-24 09:40 +0100
                            Re: Installing newer kernels chrisb@localhost.localdomain - 2016-03-28 03:30 +0200
                          Re: Installing newer kernels <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-03-24 10:00 +0100
              Re: Installing newer kernels Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2016-03-19 08:50 +0100
            Re: Installing newer kernels Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 19:50 +0100
              Re: Installing newer kernels Adam Wilson <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2016-03-20 10:20 +0100
          Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-18 21:10 +0100
            Re: Installing newer kernels Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2016-03-19 02:40 +0100
            Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-19 02:40 +0100
      Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-18 20:50 +0100
        Re: Installing newer kernels Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-03-18 21:10 +0100
          Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-18 22:20 +0100
            Re: Installing newer kernels Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-03-19 00:00 +0100
              Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-19 01:40 +0100
              Re: Installing newer kernels chrisb@localhost.localdomain - 2016-03-23 09:10 +0100
        Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-19 02:40 +0100
          Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-19 03:10 +0100
            Re: Installing newer kernels David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-03-19 03:30 +0100
    Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-18 21:20 +0100
      Re: Installing newer kernels Adam Wilson <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2016-03-20 10:30 +0100
        Re: Installing newer kernels David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-03-21 03:10 +0100

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#165562 — Installing newer kernels

I have installed Debian 2.6.32-5-686 on two machines. One, a custom
machine, has a Pentium III processor running at 800 megahertz, and has
500 megabytes of memory; the other is an IBM Mpro Intellistation 6229
with a Pentium IIII processor running at 2.2 gigahertz, and has 2
gigabytes of memory.

Debian notified me of updates for some time after I had had put it on
those machines. Then it ceased to have anything to say about updates. I
have four questions to ask about maintaining Debian.

(1) Am I to update the kernel periodically? Is there advantage to doing
so?

(2) If I do, will I again receive notices of updates, and will these
reference only the new kernel or the new kernel and also other programs
that I have installed?

(3) If I update the kernel, do I simply download it and install it over
the old one, or is there some process of uninstalling the old kernel
that is needed before a later kernel is put in?

(4) How much disc space, at the minimum, should I allot to Debian, if I
leave it essentially in a single block on the primary disc drive? I
assume that OpenOffice will be installed automatically (since it was
earlier); and I will try to install XAMPP, WordPress, and Drupal.

Thank you for helping me to understand how to maintai8n these systems.

-- William Lee Valentine

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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#165563

On Thursday 17 March 2016 23:18:14 William Lee Valentine wrote:
> I have installed Debian 2.6.32-5-686

2.6.32-5-686 is a kernel number.  Since you call it Debian 2.6.32-5-686 it is 
presumably a Debian compiled kernel.  Which version of Debian? This

https://packages.debian.org/squeeze/linux-image-2.6.32-5-686

would suggest that it is Squeeze (Debian 6).

 Squeeze has very recently stopped being supported, on 29th of February 2016, 
which may be why reminders stopped.  What form did the upgrade reminders 
take?

Lisi

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#165565

On 03/17/2016 04:18 PM, William Lee Valentine wrote:
> I have installed Debian 2.6.32-5-686 on two machines. One, a custom
> machine, has a Pentium III processor running at 800 megahertz, and
> has 500 megabytes of memory; the other is an IBM Mpro Intellistation
>  6229 with a Pentium IIII processor running at 2.2 gigahertz, and has
>  2 gigabytes of memory.
>
> Debian notified me of updates for some time after I had had put it
> on those machines. Then it ceased to have anything to say about
> updates. I have four questions to ask about maintaining Debian.
>
> (1) Am I to update the kernel periodically? Is there advantage to
> doing so?
>
> (2) If I do, will I again receive notices of updates, and will these
> reference only the new kernel or the new kernel and also other
> programs that I have installed?
>
> (3) If I update the kernel, do I simply download it and install it
> over the old one, or is there some process of uninstalling the old
> kernel that is needed before a later kernel is put in?
>
> (4) How much disc space, at the minimum, should I allot to Debian, if
> I leave it essentially in a single block on the primary disc drive? I
> assume that OpenOffice will be installed automatically (since it was
> earlier); and I will try to install XAMPP, WordPress, and Drupal.


On 03/17/2016 03:52 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> 2.6.32-5-686 is a kernel number.  Since you call it Debian
> 2.6.32-5-686 it is presumably a Debian compiled kernel.  Which
> versionof Debian? This
>
> https://packages.debian.org/squeeze/linux-image-2.6.32-5-686
>
> would suggest that it is Squeeze (Debian 6).
>
> Squeeze has very recently stopped being supported, on 29th of
> February 2016, which may be why reminders stopped.  What form did the
> upgrade reminders take?


Debian 6 is obsolete. You're going to want to do a 
backup-wipe-install-restore cycle on both machines and move to Debian 7 
(or 8).


The Intellistation should make for an acceptable low-end desktop 
machine.  I'd recommend:

 
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/7.9.0/i386/iso-cd/debian-7.9.0-i386-xfce-CD-1.iso


One of my favorite tricks is to use 16 GB USB 3.0 flash drives as system 
drives (in machines that can run from a USB drive), partitioned 
(manually) as follows:

      0.5 GB ext4 /boot
      0.5 GB random key encrypted swap
     13.4 GB passphrase encrypted btrfs / (root)


Install these software sets:

     Debian desktop environment
     print server
     SSH server
     Standard system utilities


You should have ~8 GB free HDD and ~1 GB free RAM when you're done.


XAMPP, WordPress, and Drupal should fit on the system drive, but you 
might want to set up a HDD (or RAID) for Apache, MySQL, PHP, etc., data. 
  As always, you will want enough RAM to avoid swapping.


Getting Debian 7+ on the Pentium III could be tough -- the BIOS probably 
won't boot the Debian installer on USB, and might not boot the Debian 
installer on CD.  If the easy approaches fail, there are other 
approaches that require more work.  If/ when you get the Debian 
installer going, install to a HDD, don't use encryption, and only install:

     SSH server
     Standard system utilities


You can add things carefully after that, but 512 MB of RAM, USB 1.1, IDE 
HDD's, etc., will be limiting.  That said, if you have some spare 
network card(s) and the machine supports them, it would make a decent 
firewall.


David

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#165568

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, 2016-03-17 at 19:27 -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> Debian 6 is obsolete. You're going to want to do a 
> backup-wipe-install-restore cycle on both machines and move to Debian
> 7 
> (or 8).

Why not do a dist-upgrade?

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5

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#165569

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On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 09:21:12AM +0100, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-03-17 at 19:27 -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> > Debian 6 is obsolete. You're going to want to do a 
> > backup-wipe-install-restore cycle on both machines and move to Debian
> > 7 
> > (or 8).
> 
> Why not do a dist-upgrade?

Yes. I'd recommend that too. Dist-upgrades work pretty well in Debian.

Backup is still a good idea (upgrade or not :-)

Unless you feel that you have accumulated too much crud by tweaking and
hot-fixing things in perhaps not-so-canonical ways and want to get rid
of all that in one fell swoop, that is.

- -- t
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=QSvK
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#165581

On 03/18/2016 01:21 AM, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> On Thu, 2016-03-17 at 19:27 -0700, David Christensen wrote:
>> Debian 6 is obsolete. You're going to want to do a
>> backup-wipe-install-restore cycle on both machines and move to Debian
>> 7
>> (or 8).
>
> Why not do a dist-upgrade?

1.  The few times I tried, I ran into problems.  When I was done, I had 
no little confidence in the results.  I was not alone in my experience; 
upgrade and post-upgrade issues are a common subject on this list.

2.  By keeping my system drives small and putting data/ services on 
specific machines, backup-wipe-install-restore cycles don't take very 
long and I end up with a fresh machine that works as expected.

3.  Maintaining proficiency with backup, wipe, install, and/or restore 
operations requires practice.  Improvement requires investment of time 
and money.


I'm currently using manual procedures and home-grown scripts.  The next 
step up would be a deployment/ management automation tool such as Puppet:

     https://puppetlabs.com/


David

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#165582

On 03/18/2016 01:22 PM, David Christensen wrote:
> On 03/18/2016 01:21 AM, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
>> On Thu, 2016-03-17 at 19:27 -0700, David Christensen wrote:
>>> Debian 6 is obsolete. You're going to want to do a
>>> backup-wipe-install-restore cycle on both machines and move to Debian
>>> 7
>>> (or 8).
>>
>> Why not do a dist-upgrade?
>
> 1.  The few times I tried, I ran into problems.  When I was done, I had
> no little confidence in the results.  I was not alone in my experience;
> upgrade and post-upgrade issues are a common subject on this list.

I agree. The dist upgrade was problematic and I finally had to wipe the 
root partition for a clean install. Thankfully, from my Caldera days, I 
use /opt on a separate partition. There I have a $USER/ directory  where 
I keep all of the usual /home$USER/ sub-directories such as Music, 
Video, Downloads, Documents, .mozilla , .thunderbird and the like. After 
re-install I merely restore the links and I am cleanly back in business. 
  My two cents, Ric

-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#165583

> I agree. The dist upgrade was problematic and I finally had to wipe the root
> partition for a clean install. Thankfully, from my Caldera days, I use /opt

Hmm.. just to give a counter-point, almost all my current Debian
installs are the result of a stream of upgrades+clones from the first
install I performed, back in 2006.


        Stefan

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#165596

On 2016-03-18, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> I agree. The dist upgrade was problematic and I finally had to wipe the root
>> partition for a clean install. Thankfully, from my Caldera days, I use /opt
>
> Hmm.. just to give a counter-point, almost all my current Debian
> installs are the result of a stream of upgrades+clones from the first
> install I performed, back in 2006.
>

I have never had a failed dist-upgrade. Of course, you gotta follow the
goddamn directions, do about five or ten minutes of reading of the
appropriate material, which isn't too much to ask I wouldn't think. 

This wipe business strikes me as vaguely scatological.  Clean and
cruftless and wiped (and do they wash their hands fifty times a day
too, just to be impeccable)? 

>         Stefan
>
>


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

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#165605

On 03/18/2016 02:13 PM, Curt wrote:
> I have never had a failed dist-upgrade. Of course, you gotta follow the
> goddamn directions, do about five or ten minutes of reading of the
> appropriate material, which isn't too much to ask I wouldn't think.
>
> This wipe business strikes me as vaguely scatological.  Clean and
> cruftless and wiped (and do they wash their hands fifty times a day
> too, just to be impeccable)?

I'm not a good Debian owner.  I download and install 3rd party software. 
  I modify system configuration files.  I'm too lazy to identify and 
understand all of the ramifications of the two prior sentences, so 
reverting the changes so that a dist-upgrade can work cleanly is not 
practical.  Basically, I'm lazy.  I want to pop in a disk/USB, get to a 
known good state, and then start my butchery all over again.  ;-)


David

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#165615

On 2016-03-19, David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:
>>
>> This wipe business strikes me as vaguely scatological.  Clean and
>> cruftless and wiped (and do they wash their hands fifty times a day
>> too, just to be impeccable)?
>
> I'm not a good Debian owner.  I download and install 3rd party software. 
>   I modify system configuration files.  I'm too lazy to identify and 
> understand all of the ramifications of the two prior sentences, so 
> reverting the changes so that a dist-upgrade can work cleanly is not 
> practical.  Basically, I'm lazy.  I want to pop in a disk/USB, get to a 
> known good state, and then start my butchery all over again.  ;-)
>

I understand what you're saying and I'm fine with it. Still--caeteris
paribus--the dist-upgrade process is a good, known, proven path to
moving from one stable release to the next. To suggest otherwise is
wrong.


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

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#165855

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 06:40:18PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> On 03/18/2016 02:13 PM, Curt wrote:
> >I have never had a failed dist-upgrade. Of course, you gotta follow the
> >goddamn directions, do about five or ten minutes of reading of the
> >appropriate material, which isn't too much to ask I wouldn't think.
> >
> >This wipe business strikes me as vaguely scatological.  Clean and
> >cruftless and wiped (and do they wash their hands fifty times a day
> >too, just to be impeccable)?
> 
> I'm not a good Debian owner.  I download and install 3rd party software.  I
> modify system configuration files.

As do most of us. An upgrade won't overwrite configuration file changes whereas with
a new install you do lose them!

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power
to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. 

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#165889

On 03/23/2016 12:44 AM, chrisb@localhost.localdomain wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 06:40:18PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
>> I'm not a good Debian owner.  I download and install 3rd party software.  I
>> modify system configuration files.
>
> As do most of us. An upgrade won't overwrite configuration file changes whereas with
> a new install you do lose them!

Suppose version N of some software package has M configuration settings, 
and version N+1 has M with additions +X and deletions -Y.


If I am running version N, have changed the configuration file to M', 
and then upgrade to version N+1, you're saying dist-upgrade throws away 
+X and -Y.  I may want or need those.


Whereas, if I backup, wipe, install, and restore, I can diff M' and (M 
+X -Y) and manually solve the three-way merge problem.


David

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#165890

David Christensen writes:
> If I am running version N, have changed the configuration file to M',
> and then upgrade to version N+1, you're saying dist-upgrade throws
> away +X and -Y.  I may want or need those.

The package management system will notice that you have changed the
file.  You will be asked if you want to keep the old version, install
the new one, look at a diff, or shell out and do something else.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#165891

On 03/23/2016 07:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> David Christensen writes:
>> If I am running version N, have changed the configuration file to M',
>> and then upgrade to version N+1, you're saying dist-upgrade throws
>> away +X and -Y.  I may want or need those.
>
> The package management system will notice that you have changed the
> file.  You will be asked if you want to keep the old version, install
> the new one, look at a diff, or shell out and do something else.

Okay -- not as grim as I thought.


David

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#165895

On 2016-03-24, David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:
> On 03/23/2016 07:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>> David Christensen writes:
>>> If I am running version N, have changed the configuration file to M',
>>> and then upgrade to version N+1, you're saying dist-upgrade throws
>>> away +X and -Y.  I may want or need those.
>>
>> The package management system will notice that you have changed the
>> file.  You will be asked if you want to keep the old version, install
>> the new one, look at a diff, or shell out and do something else.
>
> Okay -- not as grim as I thought.

Yeah, it's like there are people behind the scenes thinking these things
out ahead of time or something! 

>
> David
>
>


-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

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#166017

On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 08:29:40AM +0000, Curt wrote:
> On 2016-03-24, David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> wrote:
> > On 03/23/2016 07:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> >> David Christensen writes:
> >>> If I am running version N, have changed the configuration file to M',
> >>> and then upgrade to version N+1, you're saying dist-upgrade throws
> >>> away +X and -Y.  I may want or need those.
> >>
> >> The package management system will notice that you have changed the
> >> file.  You will be asked if you want to keep the old version, install
> >> the new one, look at a diff, or shell out and do something else.
> >
> > Okay -- not as grim as I thought.
> 
> Yeah, it's like there are people behind the scenes thinking these things
> out ahead of time or something! 

Yeah, it's a scary thought! Takes a bit of time to get used to if you migrate 
here from *another* OS. :)

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

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#165898

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On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 08:07:45PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> On 03/23/2016 07:46 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> >David Christensen writes:
> >>If I am running version N, have changed the configuration file to M',
> >>and then upgrade to version N+1, you're saying dist-upgrade throws
> >>away +X and -Y.  I may want or need those.
> >
> >The package management system will notice that you have changed the
> >file.  You will be asked if you want to keep the old version, install
> >the new one, look at a diff, or shell out and do something else.
> 
> Okay -- not as grim as I thought.

It's actually one of the things which has kept me as a happy Debian user
all the time, In a way, I feel respected as an admin of my system: /etc
is *my* green (as are /usr/local et al), the usual /bin, /var, /usr/bin
and so on are the distro's. It's a clear contract.

That doesn't mean "they" are out to "get me": if I changed something
on /etc and the original version evolved behind my back (e.g. more
config options), Debian goes out of its way to notice the situation
and help me fixing it.

Compare this to some uber-tentacl-y admin tools with no clear limits
about which parts of the system they are supposed to touch or to leave
alone (they've gotten better over the years, admittedly).

Debian treats me as a grown-up, and I appreciate that deeply.

- -- t
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#165613

On 03/18/2016 02:05 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I agree. The dist upgrade was problematic and I finally had to wipe the root
>> partition for a clean install. Thankfully, from my Caldera days, I use /opt
>
> Hmm.. just to give a counter-point, almost all my current Debian
> installs are the result of a stream of upgrades+clones from the first
> install I performed, back in 2006.

I tend to "install all-the-things<TM>" and it tends to fall over like a 
house of cards with a major upgrade. Last time everything went smoothly 
and it rebooted to the login screen ...minus the login box window. As 
Roseanne Roseannadanna said "It's always something." :) Ric


-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#165585

On Friday 18 March 2016 17:55:50 Ric Moore wrote:
> On 03/18/2016 01:22 PM, David Christensen wrote:
> > On 03/18/2016 01:21 AM, Sven Arvidsson wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2016-03-17 at 19:27 -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> >>> Debian 6 is obsolete. You're going to want to do a
> >>> backup-wipe-install-restore cycle on both machines and move to Debian
> >>> 7
> >>> (or 8).
> >>
> >> Why not do a dist-upgrade?
> >
> > 1.  The few times I tried, I ran into problems.  When I was done, I had
> > no little confidence in the results.  I was not alone in my experience;
> > upgrade and post-upgrade issues are a common subject on this list.
>
> I agree. The dist upgrade was problematic and I finally had to wipe the
> root partition for a clean install. Thankfully, from my Caldera days, I
> use /opt on a separate partition. There I have a $USER/ directory  where
> I keep all of the usual /home$USER/ sub-directories such as Music,
> Video, Downloads, Documents, .mozilla , .thunderbird and the like. After
> re-install I merely restore the links and I am cleanly back in business.
>   My two cents, Ric

Why is /opt/$USER preferable to /home/$USER from this point of view??

Lisi

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