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Re: Good keyboard

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  Re: Good keyboard David Niklas <doark@mail.com> - 2016-03-16 05:40 +0100
    Re: Good keyboard doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2016-03-16 06:00 +0100
    Re: Good keyboard see url doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2016-03-16 06:10 +0100
      Re: Good keyboard see url Haines Brown <haines@histomat.net> - 2016-03-16 12:10 +0100
    Re: Good keyboard"David Niklas" <doark@mail.com> rlharris@oplink.net - 2016-03-16 07:10 +0100
    Re: Good keyboard Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2016-03-16 15:20 +0100
      Re: Good keyboard "Gian Uberto Lauri" <saint@eng.it> - 2016-03-16 16:10 +0100

#165459 — Re: Good keyboard

Sorry for such a late post, I caught the flu and have only now caught up
with my emails. I've included the full quote.

On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 20:34:27 rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
> On Sun, February 14, 2016 7:12 pm, Gary Roach wrote:
> ...
> >> I've been using a microsoft Ergonomic model 4000 v.1 for years. I
> >> love it. I recently looked around for a replacement ( turned out not
> >> to be the
> >> problem). I found that the newer Microsoft keyboards were garbage in
> >> comparison. The only one that came close was a Fellows for which I
> >> can not remember the model.  
> 
> I enjoyed using the thin Apple keyboard, but put it away a few years
> back when I could not figure out the proper xkb category; but I think I
> now know how to specify the keyboard to the Debian installer.
> 
> >> I spend a lot of time on the keyboard and much
> >> prefer the slanted ergonomic layout.  
> 
> I did not notice any comments on my comparison of a computer keyboard
> with
> a piano keyboard in this respect; but that also is something to
> consider.
> Who would suffer from poor "ergonomics" more than would the pianist?
> 
> >> I don't understand the fascination with the Dvorak keyboard. While I
> >> will admit that it is more efficient than the qwerty lay out, this
> >> really will come into play if you can type faster than 150 wpm or so.
> >> Who can?
I like dvorak because it lessens the amount of strain on you, thus you
will be less likely to get corporal tunnel syndrome. I'm young and try to
think ahead.

> Perhaps you should consider your definition of efficiency.  I live at
> the keyboard, and to me the measure of that which you term "efficiency"
> involves consideration of a number of factors, including fatigue,
> typographical error rate, and intuitiveness of the layout; the words per
> minute count is at the bottom of my list.
> 
> To me, one of the greatest benefits of the Dvorak layout comes in entry
> of text which incudes numerals.  With the Classic Dvorak layout, the
> keystrokes for numerals are instinctive; thus I seldom make an error.
I'm learning dvorak, but the numerals are all in the top bar with the
punctuation marks, only the home and adjacent rows are changed. Where are
your numerals? I just type loadkeys dvorak (there are only 3 dvorak
layouts, dvorak-ASCII, dvorak-Sun, and dvorak on my computer).

> Such was not the case forty years ago when I could type 120 wpm on
> QWERTY on a manual keybar typewriter.
Wow!


I was most particularly interested in weather the (clear), cherry key
switches last. No one mentioned them.
Being able to know what you get and improve/repair it is a big attraction
of opensource, be it HW or SW, at least for me.

Thanks, David

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#165460

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 03/13/2016 08:23 PM, David Niklas wrote:
> Sorry for such a late post, I caught the flu and have only now caught up
> with my emails. I've included the full quote.
>
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 20:34:27 rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
>> On Sun, February 14, 2016 7:12 pm, Gary Roach wrote:
>> ...
>>>> I've been using a microsoft Ergonomic model 4000 v.1 for years. I
>>>> love it. I recently looked around for a replacement ( turned out not
>>>> to be the
>>>> problem). I found that the newer Microsoft keyboards were garbage in
>>>> comparison. The only one that came close was a Fellows for which I
>>>> can not remember the model.
>> I enjoyed using the thin Apple keyboard, but put it away a few years
>> back when I could not figure out the proper xkb category; but I think I
>> now know how to specify the keyboard to the Debian installer.
>>
>>>> I spend a lot of time on the keyboard and much
>>>> prefer the slanted ergonomic layout.
>> I did not notice any comments on my comparison of a computer keyboard
>> with
>> a piano keyboard in this respect; but that also is something to
>> consider.
>> Who would suffer from poor "ergonomics" more than would the pianist?
>>
>>>> I don't understand the fascination with the Dvorak keyboard. While I
>>>> will admit that it is more efficient than the qwerty lay out, this
>>>> really will come into play if you can type faster than 150 wpm or so.
>>>> Who can?
> I like dvorak because it lessens the amount of strain on you, thus you
> will be less likely to get corporal tunnel syndrome. I'm young and try to
> think ahead.
>
>> Perhaps you should consider your definition of efficiency.  I live at
>> the keyboard, and to me the measure of that which you term "efficiency"
>> involves consideration of a number of factors, including fatigue,
>> typographical error rate, and intuitiveness of the layout; the words per
>> minute count is at the bottom of my list.
>>
>> To me, one of the greatest benefits of the Dvorak layout comes in entry
>> of text which incudes numerals.  With the Classic Dvorak layout, the
>> keystrokes for numerals are instinctive; thus I seldom make an error.
> I'm learning dvorak, but the numerals are all in the top bar with the
> punctuation marks, only the home and adjacent rows are changed. Where are
> your numerals? I just type loadkeys dvorak (there are only 3 dvorak
> layouts, dvorak-ASCII, dvorak-Sun, and dvorak on my computer).
>
>> Such was not the case forty years ago when I could type 120 wpm on
>> QWERTY on a manual keybar typewriter.
> Wow!
>
>
> I was most particularly interested in weather the (clear), cherry key
> switches last. No one mentioned them.
> Being able to know what you get and improve/repair it is a big attraction
> of opensource, be it HW or SW, at least for me.
>
> Thanks, David
>
>
If you want a keyboard with real switches, look for an old IBM model M.
They're just about indestructible, so one that's 30 years old should still
be working fine. If you can't find one somewhere, an outfit called
clickykeyboards.com refurbs them, as well as manufacturing its own 
versions--
I guess the modern ones would have Windows keys, if that matters to you.
(You can get the left Win key by pushing either ctrl+esc or alt+esc--I 
forget which.)
I use nothing but IBM model M k/bs on three computers at home. Don't use
one at the office, tho--they really are loud! The model M came in different
versions--the standard k/b with insert/home/page-up arrangement to the 
right,
above up/down/left/right arrows, and then a number pad to the right, and a
version without the number pad--good to plug in to a laptop as not being 
so large.
They all have the function keys on top, but I think there might have been an
earlier one with function keys on the left. Don't know if that was 
called an M.
I got all mine back in the 90's at Computer Fairs--which don't exist 
anymore.
They were all "scrapped" from office upgrades, and they all work 
excellently.
So I don't know how old they really are.

--doug

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#165461 — Re: Good keyboard see url

On 03/13/2016 08:23 PM, David Niklas wrote:
> Sorry for such a late post, I caught the flu and have only now caught up
> with my emails. I've included the full quote.
>
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 20:34:27 rlharris@oplink.net wrote:
>> On Sun, February 14, 2016 7:12 pm, Gary Roach wrote:
>> ...
>>>> I've been using a microsoft Ergonomic model 4000 v.1 for years. I
>>>> love it. I recently looked around for a replacement ( turned out not
>>>> to be the
>>>> problem). I found that the newer Microsoft keyboards were garbage in
>>>> comparison. The only one that came close was a Fellows for which I
>>>> can not remember the model.

snip
>> I was most particularly interested in weather the (clear), cherry key 
>> switches last. No one mentioned them. Being able to know what you get 
>> and improve/repair it is a big attraction of opensource, be it HW or 
>> SW, at least for me. Thanks, David 
I just sent a reply about IBM model M. Here's an URL about Clicky 
Keys--the outfit that refurbs them.

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/meet-master-old-school-clicky-clacky-keyboard/

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#165465 — Re: Good keyboard see url

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 01:00:47AM -0400, doug wrote:
> 
> On 03/13/2016 08:23 PM, David Niklas wrote:
> I just sent a reply about IBM model M. Here's an URL about Clicky
> Keys--the outfit that refurbs them.
> 
> http://www.wired.com/2015/07/meet-master-old-school-clicky-clacky-keyboard/
 
I cannot help but throw a good word in for the old IBM keyboards. Back
in the '90s I bought six of them at $5 each because my experience was
that keyboards don't last. However, only one of the six gave out in the
intervening years, and that was because in an effort to clean one by
pouring in alcohol I managed to dissolve its innards.

I like the positive feedback, although the clicking noise might disturb
others. Being heavy, it stays in place, but I suspect the muscular
effort typing might contribute to carpel tunnel. My keyboards have
circular DIN or PS/2 connectors, significantly different lengths of
cord, some coiled and others straight.

I might mention that Unicomp reproduces the Model M, but with a USB
connector and MS key. It has the same weight and key action, but is a
bit smaller in overall size and is available in black. Unfortunately one
of its keys started to make continual contact, and so I had to put it
aside until I find time for its repair. It may be that the Unicomp
keyboard is of somewhat lesser quality than the old Model M.

Haines Brown

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#165463 — Re: Good keyboard"David Niklas" <doark@mail.com>

On Sun, March 13, 2016 7:23 pm, David Niklas wrote:
...
> I'm learning dvorak, but the numerals are all in the top bar with the
> punctuation marks, only the home and adjacent rows are changed. Where are
> your numerals? I just type loadkeys dvorak (there are only 3 dvorak
> layouts, dvorak-ASCII, dvorak-Sun, and dvorak on my computer).

This is the numeric (top) row if you install the Classic Dvorak (or Dvorak
Classic) layout in Debian:

shifted:    { & % # ! ( ) @ $ ^ * }
unshifted:  [ 7 5 3 1 9 0 2 4 6 8 ]


Russ

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#165477

On 14/03/16 00:23, David Niklas wrote:
> I was most particularly interested in weather the (clear), cherry key
> switches last. No one mentioned them.

Cherry make the explicit, measurable claim that their keyswitches have a 
minimum service life measured in tens of millions of keystrokes. Twenty 
million for the ML-series notebook-profile switches, fifty million for 
the MX-series desktop-profile switches.

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#165482

>>>>> "MR" == Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> writes:

MR> On 14/03/16 00:23, David Niklas wrote:
>> I was most particularly interested in weather the (clear), cherry
>> key switches last. No one mentioned them.

MR> Cherry make the explicit, measurable claim that their keyswitches
MR> have a minimum service life measured in tens of millions of
MR> keystrokes.

And are damn comfortable. Laser etched keycaps wear off much much
further than the keyswitch.

I will try engraved ones or attempt to present my design to "pimp my
keyboard".

-- 
 /\           ___                                    Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____               African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamico            meaning "I can
\/                 coltivatore diretto di software       not install
     già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...                Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

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