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Groups > linux.debian.user > #169754 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Giovanni Gigante <giov-debian@deepsky.it> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-07-05 15:40 +0200 |
| Last post | 2016-07-08 06:10 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 66 — 19 participants |
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reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Giovanni Gigante <giov-debian@deepsky.it> - 2016-07-05 15:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2016-07-05 19:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2016-07-05 23:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2016-07-06 11:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Don Armstrong <don@debian.org> - 2016-07-06 21:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-07-07 08:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 11:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-07 12:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-07-07 12:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-07 13:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Giovanni Gigante <giovanni.gigante@deepsky.it> - 2016-07-07 17:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-08 02:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-08 03:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-09 15:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-09 17:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-09 19:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-09 22:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2016-07-09 22:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-09 22:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-10 00:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-07-10 10:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-10 13:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-09 22:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-10 00:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-10 04:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-07-10 10:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-10 14:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-10 00:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2016-07-10 09:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-09 22:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> - 2016-07-09 23:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2016-07-10 15:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-10 16:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2016-07-10 08:40 +0200
UEFI bootloaders (was: Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie?) Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2016-07-10 23:20 +0200
Re: UEFI bootloaders (was: Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie?) "Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희)" <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> - 2016-07-11 01:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-07 20:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> - 2016-07-07 20:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-07 21:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> - 2016-07-07 21:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-07 21:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-07 23:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> - 2016-07-08 05:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 20:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> - 2016-07-08 21:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 22:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> - 2016-07-09 00:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-09 01:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> - 2016-07-09 05:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 21:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 22:20 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-09 00:10 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-07-09 00:30 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Michael Milliman <michael.e.milliman@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 21:40 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 00:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Michael Milliman <michael.e.milliman@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 02:00 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Michael Milliman <michael.e.milliman@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 02:00 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* (was: reasons to ditch LILO before...) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-08 02:10 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* (was: reasons to ditch LILO before...) David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 03:10 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* (was: reasons to ditch LILO before...) rhkramer@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 04:20 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-08 05:00 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 07:20 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-08 07:50 +0200
Re: enumerating with Grub* David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-07-08 16:50 +0200
Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-07-08 06:10 +0200
Page 2 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 Next page →
| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 00:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rT8Ln-kE-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169915 |
On Sat 09 Jul 2016 at 22:05:45 +0200, Erwan David wrote: > Le 09/07/2016 à 22:00, Brian a écrit : > > > > What is the point of a choice? Just offer GRUB; it is the bootloader for > > Debian and has many advantages over LILO in todayss Linux ecosystem. > > People who have a great desire to use LILO can search it out. > > > > Unmaintained in Debian, The bit-rot starts here. > > > > What is the point of a choice, just use the windows provided with your PC... > > Linux and debian is just about choice given to the user to use what > he/she thinks is better for him/her. This is a common misconception. Debian is about providing the best free operating system possible. As for choice in the installer, which was the point I made and which you snipped: where is the choice of printing system, the choice of editor, the choice of standard utilites such as netcat etc. Choice doesn't exist. Ok, it does but you have to search it out and get it for yourself if you want it at installation time. On the other hand, LILO is presented as an alternative to the default, well-supported and competent GRUB. No reason given; it's just there, cluttering up the menu and most likely adding to the confusion of users who use the expert install. Let those users who want it seek it out.
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 10:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTirn-6BH-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169922 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 11:15:08PM +0100, Brian wrote: [...] > This is a common misconception. Debian is about providing the best free > operating system possible. In your humble opinion. (sorry, I know I'm feeding it, but I couldn't resist). - -- t -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAleCB+oACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYwjgCffaje/B2wKNujDBfGmh8N7Zay heUAn0yq5lqiJiSq19VDhj08Gwzhybda =cj6k -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 13:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTkWe-8it-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169935 |
On Sun 10 Jul 2016 at 10:31:38 +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 11:15:08PM +0100, Brian wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > This is a common misconception. Debian is about providing the best free
> > operating system possible.
>
> In your humble opinion.
>
> (sorry, I know I'm feeding it, but I couldn't resist).
Not just my opinion. Please see
http://upsilon.cc/~zack/talks/2012/20121113-orange.pdf
On page 1:
Debian: a Free Operating System
-------------------------------
and its Relationships with the Outer World
------------------------------------------
Stefano Zacchiroli
Debian Project Leader
13 November 2012
Paris, France
Orange — Open Source Group
2nd annual seminar
On page 5:
Debian: once upon a time
------------------------
1st major distro developed “openly in the spirit of GNU”
On page 6:
1/3 of Debian: the operating system
-----------------------------------
flagship product: Debian stable
Finally, on page 9:
1/3 of Debian: the Project
--------------------------
Common goal:
Create the best, Free operating system.
Is this authoritative enough?
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| From | Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-09 22:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rT7mh-7NO-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169914 |
On Sat, Jul 9, 2016, at 16:00, Brian wrote: > > All well and good but the installer inexplicably offers a choice between > GRUB and LILO. The installer manual is unhelpful on which to choose. A > newcomer wouldn't have a clue. We do them no service with this retrograde > offering. Get rid of it. > > What is the point of a choice? Just offer GRUB; it is the bootloader for > Debian and has many advantages over LILO in todayss Linux ecosystem. > People who have a great desire to use LILO can search it out. > > Unmaintained in Debian, The bit-rot starts here. > I am not a member of the Debian installer team, and I am not authorized to speak for them. However, I will make the observation that LILO used to be the default boot loader, indeed the only boot loader at one point, in the Debian installer for i386/amd64. I suspect that LILO has been retained as an option in the Debian installer for that reason. The lilo package is maintained in Debian. It's maintainer is Joachim Wiedorn. He is also the upstream maintainer. He has ceased active development of lilo, but I believe he still accepts bug reports. And if he wants rid of it, I know a couple of people who are interested in taking it over, myself included. So I'm not concerned about it's maintenance status. As long as there are PCs with a BIOS, or a CSM, lilo will remain usable. If the BIOS/CSM goes, lilo goes with it. lilo can't function without a BIOS/CSM. But for UEFI-only systems, there's elilo as a grub alternative. Long live choice! -- .''`. Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> : :' : `. `'` `-
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 00:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rT8V4-o0-43@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169918 |
On Sat 09 Jul 2016 at 16:41:24 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016, at 16:00, Brian wrote: > > > > All well and good but the installer inexplicably offers a choice between > > GRUB and LILO. The installer manual is unhelpful on which to choose. A > > newcomer wouldn't have a clue. We do them no service with this retrograde > > offering. Get rid of it. > > > > What is the point of a choice? Just offer GRUB; it is the bootloader for > > Debian and has many advantages over LILO in todayss Linux ecosystem. > > People who have a great desire to use LILO can search it out. > > > > Unmaintained in Debian, The bit-rot starts here. > > I am not a member of the Debian installer team, and I am not authorized to > speak for them. However, I will make the observation that LILO used to be > the default boot loader, indeed the only boot loader at one point, in the > Debian installer for i386/amd64. I suspect that LILO has been retained as > an option in the Debian installer for that reason. Historical reasons for doing something aren't necessarily bad reasons but there comes a time when a reassessment of what goes into the installer has to be made. For example, Stretch drops quite a few of what in Jessie are Standard utilities. Not on technical grounds but because of their usefulness to most users. > The lilo package is maintained in Debian. It's maintainer is Joachim Wiedorn. > He is also the upstream maintainer. He has ceased active development of > lilo, but I believe he still accepts bug reports. And if he wants rid of it, > I know a couple of people who are interested in taking it over, myself included. > So I'm not concerned about it's maintenance status. As long as there are > PCs with a BIOS, or a CSM, lilo will remain usable. If the BIOS/CSM goes, > lilo goes with it. lilo can't function without a BIOS/CSM. But for UEFI-only > systems, there's elilo as a grub alternative. That's a good reason for keeping LILO in Debian. I would hope it doesn't disappear. > Long live choice! For choice to exist it does not have to be presented as such in the installer.
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| From | Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 04:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTcvD-2OF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169923 |
On Sat, Jul 9, 2016, at 18:25, Brian wrote: > On Sat 09 Jul 2016 at 16:41:24 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: >> >> Long live choice! > > For choice to exist it does not have to be presented as such in the > installer. > Your point is well taken. The installer does not offer choice in everything, just the big things. A choice of desktop, for example. However, even desktop choice is not presented in the installation steps. It's hidden in installer options. For example, I generally install with expert desktop=xfce and then, if I select "Desktop Environment" in tasksel, I get an xfce desktop instead of a gnome3 desktop. Perhaps the boot loader choice could be handled in a similar fashion. Something like expert desktop=xfce bootloader=lilo with the defaults being gnome3 and grub2, respectively. (Dare I suggest adding initsystem=sysvinit as an option too? No, I better not. I don't want to get that flame war going again.) Peace. -- .''`. Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> : :' : `. `'` `-
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| From | Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 10:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTi81-6ua-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169918 |
Le 09/07/2016 à 22:41, Stephen Powell a écrit : > So I'm not concerned about it's maintenance status. As long as there are > PCs with a BIOS, or a CSM, lilo will remain usable. If the BIOS/CSM goes, > lilo goes with it. lilo can't function without a BIOS/CSM. But for UEFI-only > systems, there's elilo as a grub alternative. AFAICS, elilo is not available any more in stretch and sid.
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| From | Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 14:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTlIB-sV-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169934 |
On Sun, Jul 10, 2016, at 03:31, Pascal Hambourg wrote: > > AFAICS, elilo is not available any more in stretch and sid. > I'm sorry to hear that. I don't have any UEFI-based systems right now, so it's not an issue for me -- yet. But it may be someday. On the other hand, CSM-less UEFI systems may fail in the marketplace. There have been attempts in the past to eliminate 16-bit support which failed. We'll just have to wait and see. -- .''`. Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> : :' : `. `'` `-
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| From | Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 00:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rT9eq-uB-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169914 |
Brian composed on 2016-07-09 21:00 (UTC+0100): > ...the installer inexplicably offers a choice between > GRUB and LILO. The installer manual is unhelpful on which to choose. A > newcomer wouldn't have a clue. We do them no service with this retrograde > offering. Get rid of it. Probably a Bad idea. Apparently there are RAID and/or LVM configurations that are incompatible with booting via an inappropriate choice of bootloader. Details I cannot provide, as I use both RAID and Grub2 little, Lilo and LVM not at al, and don't remember of which I've repeatedly read in various help forums. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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| From | Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 09:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rThEZ-65d-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169914 |
Le 09/07/2016 à 22:00, Brian a écrit : > > All well and good but the installer inexplicably offers a choice between > GRUB and LILO. The installer manual is unhelpful on which to choose. A > newcomer wouldn't have a clue. We do them no service with this retrograde > offering. Get rid of it. > > What is the point of a choice? Maybe the choice is because GRUB won't install on some very specific setups while LILO will. A boot loader is not just like any other program that you can install at anytime. It must be present for the whole system to start. So it makes sense to include it (and choice for it) in the installation sequence.
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| From | Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-09 22:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rT7cB-7Ke-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169912 |
Stephen Powell composed on 2016-07-09 13:19 (UTC-0400):
> Felix Miata wrote:
>> Stephen Powell composed on 2016-07-09 08:58 (UTC-0400):
>>> As for features, LILO has all the features that I need.
>> One feature it never acquired AFAIK, which Grub shares with Syslinux, is the
^^^^^
>> ability to edit the kernel cmdline at boot time, before kernel load. With
^^^^
>> problematic hardware, problematic BIOS, and pre-release kernel and distro
>> versions, that ability is a big troubleshooting convenience. It's one of the
>> features that facilitated my decision to migrate from OS/2 to Linux as
>> primary OS.
> Not true. I use the traditional text-mode interface of LILO (install=text).
> To supply kernel options during boot, press the Shift key (by itself) before
> the "delay" timer expires to get a boot prompt ("boot:"). Then type the
> label of the kernel you want followed by the desired boot parameters.
> For example,
> Linux single
> to boot the kernel in single-user mode. Or
> Linux forcepae
> to get a PAE-requiring kernel to boot on a Banias-class Pentium M or
> Celeron M processor, if you forgot to specify
> append="forcepae"
> in /etc/lilo.conf before running lilo. If you can't remember the names of
> your kernel labels, press the Tab key at a "boot:" prompt. LILO will
> display the names of your kernel labels followed by another "boot:" prompt.
All that's well and good, but I see nothing there that equates to my
understanding of the meaning of "editing", which includes removal as well as
appending.
> I've never used the menu-based interface of LILO, but I'm sure that there
> is a way to supply kernel options at boot time with the menu-based interface
> as well.
What I wrote probably assumed too much of the reader, as my use of Grub to
boot virtually always begins in its Gfxboot incarnation, and on a multi-boot
PC with various incarnations of pre-release OS installations. I keep Gfxboot
configured in most cases to place the entirety of kernel appendages for the
selected stanza in edit mode at the outset, so that I know exactly what to
expect before proceeding.
> See my LILO web page at
> http://www.stevesdebianstuff.org/lilo.htm
> for more information.
> P.S. I used to use OS/2 as well. But I switched because OS/2, after Warp 4,
> was more or less abandoned by IBM. Besides, Linux is free. If I had known
> about Linux back then, I would probably have gone straight from DOS to Linux.
More recent incarnations of OS/2 remain the best host for a DOS application I
still depend on constantly. Some things never get improved upon, or if they
do, the "improvements" don't add meaningful value for every user context, or
add complexity that outweighs putative benefit. e.g. for some, 64 bit, which
is killing off 32 bit in more and more distros. Many don't need more power
than it takes to run apps that can do everything needed of them in as little
as an 8 or 16 bit OS, much less 32 or 64.
I'm glad to see Lilo remains available for those who remain content to use
it. Debian's Grub (Legacy) is too broken for use on installations with EXT4
filesystems even without 64 bit nodes, while openSUSE's keeps on keeping on
pleasing me, needing no scripts to maintain to my liking.
What I'd like to find which I've had no luck with so far, is finding a Debian
installer cmdline option to skip the waste of time that is installation of
any bootloader. My disks get generic MBR code and Grub installed by me before
any OS gets installed. Thus, I have no need to see warnings about blocklists
and unreliability from installers trying to do what I don't want or need done
in the first place.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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| From | Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-09 23:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rT7FE-89z-27@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169917 |
On Sat, Jul 9, 2016, at 16:33, Felix Miata wrote: > > All that's well and good, but I see nothing there that equates to my > understanding of the meaning of "editing", which includes removal as well as > appending. Oh, I see what you're saying. Well, the Linux kernel generally does it's own overriding. For example, if the kernel command line contains conflicting options, such as "ro" and "rw", the last one supplied takes precedence. There are some exceptions. For example, if the "console" parameter is specified twice, both consoles are used. But, strictly speaking, you're right. LILO appends options supplied on the command line to options specified in the "append" configuration file statement, it does not replace them. > > What I'd like to find which I've had no luck with so far, is finding a Debian > installer cmdline option to skip the waste of time that is installation of > any bootloader. My disks get generic MBR code and Grub installed by me before > any OS gets installed. Thus, I have no need to see warnings about blocklists > and unreliability from installers trying to do what I don't want or need done If you do the installation in expert mode, you can skip the step to install a boot loader. But that's in interactive mode. I've never done an automated installation, so I don't know what can and cannot be done in that environment. -- .''`. Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> : :' : `. `'` `-
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| From | Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 15:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTn7H-1fS-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169919 |
On 7/9/2016 4:00 PM, Stephen Powell wrote: > [snip] >> What I'd like to find which I've had no luck with so far, is finding a Debian >> installer cmdline option to skip the waste of time that is installation of >> any bootloader. My disks get generic MBR code and Grub installed by me before >> any OS gets installed. Thus, I have no need to see warnings about blocklists >> and unreliability from installers trying to do what I don't want or need done > > If you do the installation in expert mode, you can skip the step to install a > boot loader. But that's in interactive mode. I've never done an automated > installation, so I don't know what can and cannot be done in that environment. > Preseed.cfg apparently can do everything except "walk the dog". [Well really customized partitioning is annoying. But that is documented.] I tend to do multiple installs as I am experimenting with having Debian to do things in *MY* idiosyncratic way. I started with using EXPERT mode but found repetitive typing annoying. An appropriately edited preseed.cfg allows me to automate all options except the particular feature(s) of interest. My only problem is finding a *SINGLE* references which lists *ALL* the choices which can be preseeded. I find Debian documentation to frequently resemble the early _CPM-80 Manual_. It's all there but finding it can me daunting.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 16:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTnU5-1No-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169944 |
On Sun 10 Jul 2016 at 08:38:15 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 7/9/2016 4:00 PM, Stephen Powell wrote: > >[snip] > >>What I'd like to find which I've had no luck with so far, is finding a Debian > >>installer cmdline option to skip the waste of time that is installation of > >>any bootloader. My disks get generic MBR code and Grub installed by me before > >>any OS gets installed. Thus, I have no need to see warnings about blocklists > >>and unreliability from installers trying to do what I don't want or need done > > > >If you do the installation in expert mode, you can skip the step to install a > >boot loader. But that's in interactive mode. I've never done an automated > >installation, so I don't know what can and cannot be done in that environment. > > > > Preseed.cfg apparently can do everything except "walk the dog". > [Well really customized partitioning is annoying. But that is documented.] > I tend to do multiple installs as I am experimenting with having Debian to > do things in *MY* idiosyncratic way. I started with using EXPERT mode but > found repetitive typing annoying. An appropriately edited preseed.cfg allows > me to automate all options except the particular feature(s) of interest. > > My only problem is finding a *SINGLE* references which lists *ALL* the > choices which can be preseeded. > > I find Debian documentation to frequently resemble the early _CPM-80 > Manual_. It's all there but finding it can me daunting. The template files in the udebs are the definitive source for preseed options. Some of them interact with each, requiring care and testing in the writing of a reference guide. What Felix Miata and Stephen Powell want is d-i grub-installer/skip boolean true and d-i lilo-installer/skip boolean true in a preseed.cfg. It can also be done on the kernel line when booting the installer; the Manual has details for this.
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| From | Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 08:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rTgzg-5mS-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169862 |
Stephen Powell wrote: > As far as LILO being unmaintained is concerned, I wouldn't be too concerned > about that. I've been thinking about offering to maintain it myself. I haven't > heard from Joachim lately. Maybe I'll drop him another line. I think LILO is an important part of Linux infrastructure. Please consider asking for contributions if you do take over maintenance. You also mentioned elilo. This project appears to be abandoned. https://sourceforge.net/projects/elilo/ Are you aware if there is much in common? (E)LILO for GPT and UEFI would be helpful to Linux minimalists dealing with modern hardware. Thanks for your LILO reference pages! ~Joel > The three main things I like about LILO are (1) I understand how it works, > (2) it is easy to configure, and (3) it doesn't use any unallocated sectors. > > The main limitations to LILO's future viability, as I see it, are UEFI > and GPT. LILO is heavily dependent on the traditional BIOS. Most UEFI > systems have a CSM to provide a BIOS for forward compatibility, though it > is often disabled by default. But some of the newest systems are starting > to ship with no CSM. I won't buy one of those as long as I have a choice. > And GPT is needed to break the 2 TiB disk size limit. But none of my disks > are anywhere near that big. > > If your system has a BIOS and a traditional DOS-style partition table, > there's no reason not to use LILO, unless you just don't want to. > > -- > .''`. Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@fastmail.com> > : :' : > `. `'` > `- > -- Joel Roth
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| From | Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-10 23:20 +0200 |
| Subject | UEFI bootloaders (was: Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie?) |
| Message-ID | <rTuiR-6aZ-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169932 |
There has been some mention of booting UEFI systems in this thread. This appears to be a comprehensive resource: http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/index.html Many bootloaders are covered, and the author also mentions his own project, rEFInd http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ cheers, -- Joel Roth
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| From | "Byung-Hee HWANG (황병희)" <soyeomul@doraji.xyz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-11 01:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: UEFI bootloaders (was: Re: reasons to ditch LILO before upgrading to jessie?) |
| Message-ID | <rTwb0-7pE-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169963 |
On 2016년 7월 11일 오전 6시 11분 41초 GMT+09:00, Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> wrote: >There has been some mention of booting UEFI systems in >this thread. This appears to be a comprehensive resource: > >http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/index.html > >Many bootloaders are covered, and the author also >mentions his own project, rEFInd > >http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ > >cheers, Good to know UEFI bootloaders! Still this is off thread, off feedback. Personally i like chromebooks and chromeboxes because they are not use UEFI (except 1st generation such as cr48,alex,...). They are use Coreboot[LinuxBios]. That was important to me to choose hardware. If i wrong, correct me, thanks! Sincerely, -- ^고맙습니다 감사합니다_^))//
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-07 20:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rSmdH-275-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169824 |
On Thu 07 Jul 2016 at 08:33:57 (+0200), tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 02:23:39PM -0500, Don Armstrong wrote: > > On Wed, 06 Jul 2016, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > YMMV, I find it impenetrable. > > > > I'm assuming you mean the generated configuration? It's literally just > > some boilerplate [...] > > Let's make it impenetrable boilerplate, then. > > FWIW, I concur with Jonathan. While I actively worked on my lilo.conf, > since grub (espeecially -2), I try to avoid touching the conf. > > Wonderfully general, but (for me) wonderfully unusable. > > Now don't get me wrong: without Grub, my box wouldn't boot, and chances > are that the "legacy" emulation of whatever monster bios is in there > is so buggy that Lilo wouldn't cope: therefore I am still full of thanks > and praise for the Grub authors for their hard work. > > Still I do disagree on many of its design principles. Well, I think it's a shame that there isn't a GRUB_ENABLE_LINUX_LABEL=true along with the GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_UUID parameter. I did take a look at the scripts with a view to hacking one into shape, but it struck me that it would be harder to maintain it unless it got incorporated upstream than what I eventually did. Even if I succeeded in writing it. So I took the easier course of writing a python script to read /run/udev/data/b* and replace the --fs-uuid UUIDs in /boot/grub/grub.cfg with --label LABELs. Along the way, it also prettifies the menu strings and adds an fsck entry which I can call with grub-reboot 'fsck>fsck' (Again, I don't know why the scripts don't do this themselves.) I keep a before/after copy so that, whenever grub or a kernel is updated, I can copy the 'after' file if the 'before' compares equal. I don't think the scripts are much harder to understand than those in /etc/init.d/ which regularly come up here when people try to hack their own. Cheers, David.
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| From | Gary Dale <garydale@torfree.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-07 20:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rSmx6-2ew-91@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169754 |
On 05/07/16 09:38 AM, Giovanni Gigante wrote: > > Hello, > I am preparing my system for the upgrade from wheezy to jessie. > Since ancient ages, this system has been using LILO as the bootloader, > because, long ago, it was the only bootloader that was recommended for > my setup: this machine has two SATA disks in a software RAID 1 & LVM; > that is, in /etc/lilo.conf I have: > > boot=/dev/md0 > root=/dev/mapper/vg00-rootlv > raid-extra-boot = mbr > > My doubt is that I have read that LILO, besides being very old, is now > unmantained. However, I see that the jessie installation manual still > mentions it, so it does not seem deprecated yet. > So the question is: is there any serious reason to switch the system > to GRUB before upgrading, or can I just keep my current setup and > proceed to jessie? > > Thanks > Giovanni > The big selling feature of Grub over Lilo was that it didn't need to updated each time you changed something. That fell by the wayside with Grub 2. Now the big selling feature is that it works with more than just Linux. It also has a "rescue shell" that I've never been able to do anything useful with. When grub fails, I boot from a rescue cd instead. That way I get a real working environment.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-07 21:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <rSmGL-2kd-83@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #169845 |
On Thu 07 Jul 2016 at 14:39:51 (-0400), Gary Dale wrote: > The big selling feature of Grub over Lilo was that it didn't need to > updated each time you changed something. That fell by the wayside > with Grub 2. Now the big selling feature is that it works with more > than just Linux. I guess I don't know what you mean by "update". If I change the contents of grub.cfg, the effect is immediate: the changes will be seen at the next boot. I don't do anything more. > It also has a "rescue shell" that I've never been able to do > anything useful with. When grub fails, I boot from a rescue cd > instead. That way I get a real working environment. Horses for courses. Cheers, David.
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