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Re: Xorg replaces TTY1

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  Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 berenger.morel@neutralite.org - 2015-11-22 14:30 +0100
    Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-11-22 19:30 +0100
    Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-11-22 22:10 +0100
    Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 "John L. Ries" <jries@salford-systems.com> - 2015-11-23 18:40 +0100
      Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-23 19:10 +0100
      Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Anthony Campbell <ac@acampbell.uk> - 2015-11-25 10:10 +0100
        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 11:00 +0100
        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-25 20:30 +0100
          Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-27 06:20 +0100
        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 17:40 +0100
          Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-26 18:10 +0100
            Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-11-26 20:00 +0100
              Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-26 20:20 +0100
                Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-26 20:30 +0100
                  Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-11-26 20:40 +0100
                  Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-26 20:50 +0100
                    Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-26 21:30 +0100
                      Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-11-26 21:40 +0100
                        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-11-26 22:00 +0100
                        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2015-11-26 22:10 +0100
                          Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-27 06:40 +0100
                            Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2015-11-27 10:50 +0100
                              Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-11-27 14:00 +0100
                        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-11-26 23:50 +0100
                          Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2015-11-27 11:20 +0100
              Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-27 06:10 +0100
                Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Petter Adsen <petter@synth.no> - 2015-11-27 09:50 +0100
                  Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-27 10:30 +0100
        Re: Xorg replaces TTY1 moxalt <moxalt@riseup.net> - 2015-11-27 20:00 +0100

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#160975 — Re: Xorg replaces TTY1

Le 22.11.2015 10:51, Bert Riding a écrit :
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:40:01 +0100, berenger.morel wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> There is a behavior change I noticed when I switched to Jessie, 
>> which
>> have always annoyed me but that I never tried to resolve.
>>
>> The change is that now, when I use startx on TTY1, Xorg replaces the
>> TTY. I understand that it is not a problem for 99% of users, but I
>> would like to know how to configure Debian to stay with the old
>> behavior (aka: start Xorg on TTY 7+).
>> Do someone have any clue about how to do that?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> PS: I am not registed on this list, so please CC me.
>
> I too am not a fan of the new behavior.  X now runs on the terminal 
> from
> which it is started, so to run it on tty7 you must run a getty on 
> tty7
> and log in there first.  Do this by editing /etc/inittab (if using
> init) or /etc/systemd/logind.conf (if using systemd.)
>
> Until the last month or so it was possible to use "startx -- tty24" 
> to
> run X on tty24, accessed by AltGr-F12, for instance.  This also no
> longer works.  I now have tty24 listed as my ReserveVT in logind.conf
> so that a getty is run there and I can login and then run startx.
>
> There are undoubtedly other ways (like screen, perhaps) to open the 
> tty
> you prefer.

I see.

But this trick won't prevent the me to be able to see what X11 print on 
screen, right? This is the reason I do not like this behavior.
Like, for example, "/home/foo/.xinitrc: numlockx: not found", "failing 
to find font foo, falling back to bar", etc. Those messages that people 
not using big DEs can wish to access to (again, I know this is not the 
majority).

Also, note that there is absolutely nothing about that in Debian 
release notes for Jessie. I tried to find something on the web about it 
too, but was never able to find anything relevant. I guess I did not 
used the good search terms.

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#160994

On Sun 22 Nov 2015 at 14:03:35 +0100, berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:

> I see.
> 
> But this trick won't prevent the me to be able to see what X11 print on
> screen, right? This is the reason I do not like this behavior.

Some people have described this behaviour as a security risk. The list
archives have discussions.

> Like, for example, "/home/foo/.xinitrc: numlockx: not found", "failing to
> find font foo, falling back to bar", etc. Those messages that people not
> using big DEs can wish to access to (again, I know this is not the
> majority).
> 
> Also, note that there is absolutely nothing about that in Debian release
> notes for Jessie. I tried to find something on the web about it too, but was
> never able to find anything relevant. I guess I did not used the good search
> terms.

Bug #743015.

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#161005

On Sun 22 Nov 2015 at 14:03:35 (+0100), berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:
> Le 22.11.2015 10:51, Bert Riding a écrit :
> >On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:40:01 +0100, berenger.morel wrote:
> >>There is a behavior change I noticed when I switched to Jessie,
> >>which
> >>have always annoyed me but that I never tried to resolve.
> >>
> >>The change is that now, when I use startx on TTY1, Xorg replaces the
> >>TTY. I understand that it is not a problem for 99% of users, but I
> >>would like to know how to configure Debian to stay with the old
> >>behavior (aka: start Xorg on TTY 7+).
> >>Do someone have any clue about how to do that?
> >>Thanks.
> >>PS: I am not registed on this list, so please CC me.

It might be sensible to set your email and and that of the list in a
reply-to header. I only noticed this request because I tend to clip
excess lines from my quotations.

> >I too am not a fan of the new behavior.  X now runs on the
> >terminal from
> >which it is started, so to run it on tty7 you must run a getty on
> >tty7
> >and log in there first.  Do this by editing /etc/inittab (if using
> >init) or /etc/systemd/logind.conf (if using systemd.)
> >
> >Until the last month or so it was possible to use "startx --
> >tty24" to
> >run X on tty24, accessed by AltGr-F12, for instance.  This also no
> >longer works.  I now have tty24 listed as my ReserveVT in logind.conf
> >so that a getty is run there and I can login and then run startx.
> >
> >There are undoubtedly other ways (like screen, perhaps) to open
> >the tty
> >you prefer.
> 
> I see.
> But this trick won't prevent the me to be able to see what X11 print
> on screen, right? This is the reason I do not like this behavior.
> Like, for example, "/home/foo/.xinitrc: numlockx: not found",
> "failing to find font foo, falling back to bar", etc. Those messages
> that people not using big DEs can wish to access to (again, I know
> this is not the majority).

I'm not sure I fully understand what you can't see. Is it what you
used to see on VC1 (where you ran startx from) when X was running in
VC7? When I noticed jessie's behaviour, I just altered my script for
starting X to

xxx () 
{ 
    local TIMESTAMP=$(date +%Y-%m-%d-%H-%M-%S);
    : >| $HOME/.xsession-errors;
    printf '%s\n' "zzzyyyxxx $HOSTNAME $TIMESTAMP" >> $HOME/.xsession-errors;
    /usr/bin/X11/startx >> $HOME/.xsession-errors 2>&1 &
}

so that everything appears in $HOME/.xsession-errors.
The only mystery to me is why, when I Ctrl-Alt-Backspace out of X,
I sometimes find the VC1 command line looks like this:

$ £££

(from one to three pound characters, usually zero).

Cheers,
David.

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#161063

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Actually, if someone is starting X via startx instead of a display 
manager, it normally means either that the user is trying to test his X 
configuration, or that X is only intended to run intermittently, with TTY 
mode being the norm.  So having X replace the terminal in that 
circumstance does not at all strike me as a happy thing,

--------------------------|
John L. Ries              |
Salford Systems           |
Phone: (619)543-8880 x107 |
or     (435)867-8885      |
--------------------------|


On Sun, 22 Nov 2015, berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:

>
>
> Le 22.11.2015 10:51, Bert Riding a écrit :
>> On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 00:40:01 +0100, berenger.morel wrote:
>>
>>> Hello.
>>>
>>> There is a behavior change I noticed when I switched to Jessie,
>>> which
>>> have always annoyed me but that I never tried to resolve.
>>>
>>> The change is that now, when I use startx on TTY1, Xorg replaces the
>>> TTY. I understand that it is not a problem for 99% of users, but I
>>> would like to know how to configure Debian to stay with the old
>>> behavior (aka: start Xorg on TTY 7+).
>>> Do someone have any clue about how to do that?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> PS: I am not registed on this list, so please CC me.
>>
>> I too am not a fan of the new behavior.  X now runs on the terminal
>> from
>> which it is started, so to run it on tty7 you must run a getty on
>> tty7
>> and log in there first.  Do this by editing /etc/inittab (if using
>> init) or /etc/systemd/logind.conf (if using systemd.)
>>
>> Until the last month or so it was possible to use "startx -- tty24"
>> to
>> run X on tty24, accessed by AltGr-F12, for instance.  This also no
>> longer works.  I now have tty24 listed as my ReserveVT in logind.conf
>> so that a getty is run there and I can login and then run startx.
>>
>> There are undoubtedly other ways (like screen, perhaps) to open the
>> tty
>> you prefer.
>
> I see.
>
> But this trick won't prevent the me to be able to see what X11 print on
> screen, right? This is the reason I do not like this behavior.
> Like, for example, "/home/foo/.xinitrc: numlockx: not found", "failing
> to find font foo, falling back to bar", etc. Those messages that people
> not using big DEs can wish to access to (again, I know this is not the
> majority).
>
> Also, note that there is absolutely nothing about that in Debian
> release notes for Jessie. I tried to find something on the web about it
> too, but was never able to find anything relevant. I guess I did not
> used the good search terms.
>
>

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#161067

Then there all the new users out there who, having diligently read up on
Linux, know exactly how to open a console...
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#161126

On 23 Nov 2015, John L. Ries wrote:
> Actually, if someone is starting X via startx instead of a display manager,
> it normally means either that the user is trying to test his X
> configuration, or that X is only intended to run intermittently, with TTY
> mode being the norm.  So having X replace the terminal in that circumstance
> does not at all strike me as a happy thing,

I don't agree with this. I don't use a desktop manager but even if I
did, I'd prefer to start X via startx. This gives me more control. If
something goes wrong with X you are screwed if you don't have an easily
accessible TTY to diagnose the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in
this.

-- 
Anthony Campbell			http://www.acampbell.uk

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#161127

On Wednesday 25 November 2015 08:22:20 Anthony Campbell wrote:
> I don't agree with this. I don't use a desktop manager but even if I
> did, I'd prefer to start X via startx. This gives me more control. If
> something goes wrong with X you are screwed if you don't have an easily
> accessible TTY to diagnose the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in
> this.

I start X via tdm.  I have a very easily available/accessible TTY.

Lisi

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#161140

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:22:20AM +0000, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2015, John L. Ries wrote:
> > Actually, if someone is starting X via startx instead of a display manager,
> > it normally means either that the user is trying to test his X
> > configuration, or that X is only intended to run intermittently, with TTY
> > mode being the norm.  So having X replace the terminal in that circumstance
> > does not at all strike me as a happy thing,
> 
> I don't agree with this. I don't use a desktop manager but even if I
> did, I'd prefer to start X via startx. This gives me more control. If
> something goes wrong with X you are screwed if you don't have an easily
> accessible TTY to diagnose the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in
> this.

ctrl-alt-F1 still works, even though ctrl-alt-backspace no longer works.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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#161217

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 08:21:55AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:22:20AM +0000, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> > On 23 Nov 2015, John L. Ries wrote:
> > > Actually, if someone is starting X via startx instead of a display manager,
> > > it normally means either that the user is trying to test his X
> > > configuration, or that X is only intended to run intermittently, with TTY
> > > mode being the norm.  So having X replace the terminal in that circumstance
> > > does not at all strike me as a happy thing,
> > 
> > I don't agree with this. I don't use a desktop manager but even if I
> > did, I'd prefer to start X via startx. This gives me more control. If
> > something goes wrong with X you are screwed if you don't have an easily
> > accessible TTY to diagnose the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in
> > this.
> 
> ctrl-alt-F1 still works, even though ctrl-alt-backspace no longer works.

Incorrect! ctrl-alt-backspace still works, (warning: it kills X)

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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#161194

On 11/25/2015 12:22 AM, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> On 23 Nov 2015, John L. Ries wrote:
>> Actually, if someone is starting X via startx instead of a display manager,
>> it normally means either that the user is trying to test his X
>> configuration, or that X is only intended to run intermittently, with TTY
>> mode being the norm.  So having X replace the terminal in that circumstance
>> does not at all strike me as a happy thing,
> I don't agree with this. I don't use a desktop manager but even if I
> did, I'd prefer to start X via startx. This gives me more control. If
> something goes wrong with X you are screwed if you don't have an easily
> accessible TTY to diagnose the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in
> this.
Not alone, at all.  I run Mate, but I boot to a console, log in there, 
and use startx to get my X session.

Marc

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#161195

Marc writes:
> Not alone, at all.  I run Mate, but I boot to a console, log in there,
> and use startx to get my X session.

So do I, and I have a decades-old muscle memory that tells me
CNTRL-ALT-F1 will get me a logged-in console.  Having to reprogram that
is a (minor) nuisance. It will be a much larger nuisance for the new
users who will diligently read up on Linux before trying it (yes, there
are people who do that) and learn that CNTRL-ALT-F1 gets them to a
console and ALT-F7 gets them back to X.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#161199

On Thu 26 Nov 2015 at 11:04:23 -0600, John Hasler wrote:

> Marc writes:
> > Not alone, at all.  I run Mate, but I boot to a console, log in there,
> > and use startx to get my X session.
> 
> So do I, and I have a decades-old muscle memory that tells me
> CNTRL-ALT-F1 will get me a logged-in console.  Having to reprogram that
> is a (minor) nuisance. It will be a much larger nuisance for the new
> users who will diligently read up on Linux before trying it (yes, there
> are people who do that) and learn that CNTRL-ALT-F1 gets them to a
> console and ALT-F7 gets them back to X.

For many readers (diligent or otherwise), isn't this a matter of updated
documentation and re-education. There are still users (an example is in
this thread) who believe ctrl-alt-backspace no longer works in Debian.
It does.

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#161201

I wrote:
> So do I, and I have a decades-old muscle memory that tells me
> CNTRL-ALT-F1 will get me a logged-in console.  Having to reprogram that
> is a (minor) nuisance. It will be a much larger nuisance for the new
> users who will diligently read up on Linux before trying it (yes, there
> are people who do that) and learn that CNTRL-ALT-F1 gets them to a
> console and ALT-F7 gets them back to X.

Brian writes:
> For many readers (diligent or otherwise), isn't this a matter of
> updated documentation and re-education.

There is no getting rid of the old documentation and no way to mark it
obsolete.  This is a significant cost of human interface changes and
should be considered.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#161202

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:16:16 -0600
John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:

> > For many readers (diligent or otherwise), isn't this a matter of
> > updated documentation and re-education.  
 
> There is no getting rid of the old documentation and no way to mark it
> obsolete.  This is a significant cost of human interface changes and
> should be considered.

Only obsolete for those who have switched to systemd-Linux; the documentation remains still valid for users of GNU-Linux.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
         An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less
             until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
                                    
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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#161203

On Thu 26 Nov 2015 at 16:28:05 -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:16:16 -0600
> John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
> 
> > > For many readers (diligent or otherwise), isn't this a matter of
> > > updated documentation and re-education.  
>  
> > There is no getting rid of the old documentation and no way to mark it
> > obsolete.  This is a significant cost of human interface changes and
> > should be considered.
> 
> Only obsolete for those who have switched to systemd-Linux; the
> documentation remains still valid for users of GNU-Linux.

The Linux Sound HOWTO: Revision 1.21 2001-05-11

  http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Sound-HOWTO/

Even non-systemd users might struggle with it when it comes to solving a
problem . :)

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#161204

Renaud writes:
> Only obsolete for those who have switched to systemd-Linux; the
> documentation remains still valid for users of GNU-Linux.

True, and that only makes the problem worse.  Now you have *two* sets of
confused new users.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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#161206

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:46:54 -0600
John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:

> > Only obsolete for those who have switched to systemd-Linux; the
> > documentation remains still valid for users of GNU-Linux.  
 
> True, and that only makes the problem worse.  Now you have *two* sets of
> confused new users.

One wonders why did they abandon the principle of backward compatibility ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
                  There comes a time in the affairs of a man
                   when he has to take the bull by the tail
                           and face the situation.
                                              -- W.C. Fields
                                    
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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#161207

On Thu 26 Nov 2015 at 17:28:05 -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:46:54 -0600
> John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> wrote:
> 
> > > Only obsolete for those who have switched to systemd-Linux; the
> > > documentation remains still valid for users of GNU-Linux.  
>  
> > True, and that only makes the problem worse.  Now you have *two* sets of
> > confused new users.
> 
> One wonders why did they abandon the principle of backward compatibility ?

How does that relate to the principle of constant inovation and
improvement?

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#161208

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 20:37:04 +0000
Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> > One wonders why did they abandon the principle of backward compatibility ?  
> 
> How does that relate to the principle of constant inovation and
> improvement?

Is it that difficult to innovate and improve, without destroying what was before ?

And ensure that what worked before still works with (or in spite of) the innovations and improvements ??
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
                  There comes a time in the affairs of a man
                   when he has to take the bull by the tail
                           and face the situation.
                                              -- W.C. Fields
                                    
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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#161209

Renaud writes:
> One wonders why did they abandon the principle of backward compatibility ?

Brian writes:
> How does that relate to the principle of constant inovation and
> improvement?

By way of continuity.  Sometimes it is necessary to break continuity,
but it should not be done without careful thought and preparation.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhasler@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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