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Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors

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  Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-22 12:50 +0100
    Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-22 13:10 +0100
      Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-22 13:50 +0100
        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2015-11-22 14:10 +0100
          Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-22 15:00 +0100
          Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-23 00:20 +0100
            Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2015-11-23 00:40 +0100
              Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-23 01:30 +0100
            Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> - 2015-11-23 00:40 +0100
              Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2015-11-23 00:50 +0100
                Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-11-23 01:30 +0100
                  Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2015-11-23 02:10 +0100
                    Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-23 05:30 +0100
                      Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2015-11-23 05:40 +0100
                        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-23 06:10 +0100
                      Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Dominique Dumont <dod@debian.org> - 2015-11-23 08:40 +0100
                        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-23 09:50 +0100
                        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-23 10:20 +0100
                          Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Dominique Dumont <dod@debian.org> - 2015-11-23 15:40 +0100
            Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2015-11-23 15:50 +0100
      Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-22 16:30 +0100
        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-22 16:50 +0100
          Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-23 14:50 +0100
            Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-25 21:20 +0100
              Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 21:30 +0100
                Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-25 22:20 +0100
                  Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Catalin Soare <lolinux.soare@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 22:30 +0100
                    Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-25 23:00 +0100
                      Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Catalin Soare <lolinux.soare@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 23:10 +0100
                        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-25 23:30 +0100
                        Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors "John L. Ries" <jries@salford-systems.com> - 2015-11-25 23:30 +0100
                  Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 00:00 +0100
                    Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-26 00:20 +0100
              Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-25 22:40 +0100
                Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-25 23:40 +0100
                  Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-11-26 01:40 +0100
                    Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2015-11-26 02:10 +0100
                      Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-27 10:00 +0100
                Re: Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors Mauro Condarelli <mc5686@mclink.it> - 2015-11-25 23:50 +0100

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#160968 — Debian seems unable to drive my (4) monitors

I have a setup with two video cards (intel HD Graphics 4600 + NVidia GeForce GTX 770) and four monitors (two for each card).
I can see all monitors under Windows, but I can see (active, of course) only two under debian (on the same card).
I tried several configurations to no avail and finally I gave up :(

Yesterday I discovered another data point:
Linuxmint (I tested the "live" distribution) can drive all my monitors, apparently with no configuration at all (no /etc/X11/xorg.conf or similar).

LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition - essentially the same distribution, but based on Debian instead of Ubuntu) has the same problems of plain debian.

I *suspect* problem comes from different options enabled (kernel config?), but I have no idea how to debug such a thing.

I did a dump of lspci and lsmod on the working (lm) system and my next move will be to get a similar dump on the non working(debian) setup.
Is there anything else I should check?
As said: the working system has no explicit xorg configuration.

Please help me; I would hate to leave debian world (I was here since the beginnings, coming from slackware to "buzz").

Regards
Mauro

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#160971

On 11/22/2015 5:46 AM, Mauro Condarelli wrote:
> I have a setup with two video cards (intel HD Graphics 4600 +
> NVidia GeForce GTX 770) and four monitors (two for each card).
> I can see all monitors under Windows, but I can see (active, of
> course) only two under debian (on the same card).
> I tried several configurations to no avail and finally I gave up :(
>
> Yesterday I discovered another data point:
> Linuxmint (I tested the "live" distribution) can drive all my
> monitors, apparently with no configuration at all (no
> /etc/X11/xorg.conf or similar).
>
> LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition - essentially the same
> distribution, but based on Debian instead of Ubuntu) has the same
> problems of plain debian.

Which card does *NOT* work? Does it require a non-free driver?
[My Debian machine is a laptop so I never used multiple monitors]



>
> I *suspect* problem comes from different options enabled (kernel
> config?), but I have no idea how to debug such a thing.
>
> I did a dump of lspci and lsmod on the working (lm) system and my
> next move will be to get a similar dump on the non
> working(debian) setup.
> Is there anything else I should check?
> As said: the working system has no explicit xorg configuration.
>
> Please help me; I would hate to leave debian world (I was here
> since the beginnings, coming from slackware to "buzz").
>
> Regards
> Mauro
>
>

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#160972

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I have been able to make them *both* work (using custom xorg.conf), but not *at the same time* (under debian)

The working setup (linixmint) does not appear to use any proprietary driver (i.e.: it uses nouveau for NVidia).

I attach here full lspci and lsmod output (of *working* setup; i.e. LM) in case they give some hint.

TiA
MAuro


Il 22/11/2015 13:03, Richard Owlett ha scritto:
> On 11/22/2015 5:46 AM, Mauro Condarelli wrote:
>> I have a setup with two video cards (intel HD Graphics 4600 +
>> NVidia GeForce GTX 770) and four monitors (two for each card).
>> I can see all monitors under Windows, but I can see (active, of
>> course) only two under debian (on the same card).
>> I tried several configurations to no avail and finally I gave up :(
>>
>> Yesterday I discovered another data point:
>> Linuxmint (I tested the "live" distribution) can drive all my
>> monitors, apparently with no configuration at all (no
>> /etc/X11/xorg.conf or similar).
>>
>> LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition - essentially the same
>> distribution, but based on Debian instead of Ubuntu) has the same
>> problems of plain debian.
>
> Which card does *NOT* work? Does it require a non-free driver?
> [My Debian machine is a laptop so I never used multiple monitors]
>
>
>
>>
>> I *suspect* problem comes from different options enabled (kernel
>> config?), but I have no idea how to debug such a thing.
>>
>> I did a dump of lspci and lsmod on the working (lm) system and my
>> next move will be to get a similar dump on the non
>> working(debian) setup.
>> Is there anything else I should check?
>> As said: the working system has no explicit xorg configuration.
>>
>> Please help me; I would hate to leave debian world (I was here
>> since the beginnings, coming from slackware to "buzz").
>>
>> Regards
>> Mauro
>>
>>
>

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#160974

Mauro Condarelli composed on 2015-11-22 13:24 (UTC+0100):

> I have been able to make them *both* work (using custom xorg.conf), but not *at the same time* (under debian)

> The working setup (linixmint) does not appear to use any proprietary driver (i.e.: it uses nouveau for NVidia).

> I attach here full lspci and lsmod output (of *working* setup; i.e. LM) in case they give some hint.

I only found your lsmod output.

Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some people at
least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email attachment.

Also, what brand and model is your motherboard? FWIW, most motherboards
disable the onboard video when PCIe slot(s) is/are populated by gfxcard, so
it's nice to know when someone finds one lacking this limitation. Knowing CPU
model might also be useful if the video is in the CPU rather than on a
separate chip on the board.

[1] e.g. http://paste.debian.net/ or your own personal web space
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#160979

Hi,
comments below.

Il 22/11/2015 14:09, Felix Miata ha scritto:
> Mauro Condarelli composed on 2015-11-22 13:24 (UTC+0100):
>
>> I have been able to make them *both* work (using custom xorg.conf), but not *at the same time* (under debian)
>> The working setup (linixmint) does not appear to use any proprietary driver (i.e.: it uses nouveau for NVidia).
>> I attach here full lspci and lsmod output (of *working* setup; i.e. LM) in case they give some hint.
> I only found your lsmod output.
>
> Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some people at
> least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email attachment.
the whole packed is available at: http://paste.debian.net/334935/

I currently am under Win7 (on the same hardware) and I cannot switch.
I will post Xorg.0.log of both machines (BTW I already looked several times at the failing one, without any success, but You eyes could be trained better than mine, of course) ASAP.

Regards
Mauro
> Also, what brand and model is your motherboard? FWIW, most motherboards
> disable the onboard video when PCIe slot(s) is/are populated by gfxcard, so
> it's nice to know when someone finds one lacking this limitation. Knowing CPU
> model might also be useful if the video is in the CPU rather than on a
> separate chip on the board.
>
> [1] e.g. http://paste.debian.net/ or your own personal web space

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#161019

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 08:09:01AM -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
> Mauro Condarelli composed on 2015-11-22 13:24 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > I have been able to make them *both* work (using custom xorg.conf), but not *at the same time* (under debian)
> 
> > The working setup (linixmint) does not appear to use any proprietary driver (i.e.: it uses nouveau for NVidia).
> 
> > I attach here full lspci and lsmod output (of *working* setup; i.e. LM) in case they give some hint.
> 
> I only found your lsmod output.
> 
> Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some people at
> least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email attachment.

Please stop suggesting that! Logs inline or as an attachment are fine.
It would be nice if the poster trimmmed them a bit, but better too much
than too little.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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#161021

Chris Bannister composed on 2015-11-23 12:19 (UTC+1300):

>> Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some people at
>> least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email attachment.

> Please stop suggesting that!

Sorry, won't do that. It's only a suggestion, nothing like an order.

> Logs inline or as an attachment are fine.

Fine for people interested in responding to them who don't care when included
logs wrap into an inexplicable mess. That group excludes me.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#161030

On Sunday 22 November 2015 18:37:47 Felix Miata wrote:

> Chris Bannister composed on 2015-11-23 12:19 (UTC+1300):
> >> Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some
> >> people at least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email
> >> attachment.
> >
> > Please stop suggesting that!
>
> Sorry, won't do that. It's only a suggestion, nothing like an order.
>
> > Logs inline or as an attachment are fine.
>
> Fine for people interested in responding to them who don't care when
> included logs wrap into an inexplicable mess. That group excludes me.

Me too. +10 if I had that many votes.

If I am to read a log, and that log contains lines 200 characters long, 
most of our email readers /can/ handle that, so PLEASE turn off the 
word-wrap in your email agent long enough to post a log unmolested by 
senseless word-wrapping.  That is a huge help to those of us who might 
be interested in helping.  Word-wrap it so it makes no sense, and I'll 
just hit the + key (kmail) to go on to the next message.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#161024

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:19:20 +1300
Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:

>On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 08:09:01AM -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
>> Mauro Condarelli composed on 2015-11-22 13:24 (UTC+0100):
>>   
>> > I have been able to make them *both* work (using custom xorg.conf), but not *at the same time* (under debian)  
>>   
>> > The working setup (linixmint) does not appear to use any proprietary driver (i.e.: it uses nouveau for NVidia).  
>>   
>> > I attach here full lspci and lsmod output (of *working* setup; i.e. LM) in case they give some hint.  
>> 
>> I only found your lsmod output.
>> 
>> Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some people at
>> least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email attachment.  
>
>Please stop suggesting that! Logs inline or as an attachment are fine.
>It would be nice if the poster trimmmed them a bit, but better too much
>than too little.
>

As a new user of this mailing list, is it wrong to use pastebin? Did I
miss a requirement to insure logs are always included in my emails
instead?

-- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

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#161025

Charlie Kravetz composed on 2015-11-22 16:31 (UTC-0700):

> As a new user of this mailing list, is it wrong to use pastebin? Did I
> miss a requirement to insure logs are always included in my emails
> instead?

Xorg.0.log contains bits that can be considerd personal in nature. Having
them them included in the email means the archive contains that information
indefinitely.

Xorg.0.log can be rather large, while "Avoid sending large attachments." and
"Use common sense all the time." are parts of the Code of conduct.
https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#161031

On Sunday 22 November 2015 18:49:17 Felix Miata wrote:

> Charlie Kravetz composed on 2015-11-22 16:31 (UTC-0700):
> > As a new user of this mailing list, is it wrong to use pastebin? Did
> > I miss a requirement to insure logs are always included in my emails
> > instead?
>
> Xorg.0.log contains bits that can be considerd personal in nature.

How so? I don't recall ever seeing a passwd, or a list of my meds 
included in it.

Please explain just what it is in the way of personal info that we are to 
expunge before posting.

> Having them them included in the email means the archive contains that
> information indefinitely.
>
> Xorg.0.log can be rather large, while "Avoid sending large
> attachments." and "Use common sense all the time." are parts of the
> Code of conduct. https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#161036

Gene Heskett composed on 2015-11-22 19:29 (UTC-0500):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Xorg.0.log contains bits that can be considerd personal in nature.

> How so? I don't recall ever seeing a passwd, or a list of my meds 
> included in it.

> Please explain just what it is in the way of personal info that we are to 
> expunge before posting.

"can be considered" means opinions are involved, and possibly nothing is
actually risky or personal or needs redaction. I'm not going to catalog what
bits might be among them. One to consider:

	hostname
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161039

Whoa!
No need to make so much fuss about the way I sent logs: I sent them directly attaching them in Thunderbird and via paste.debian.net.
In my case there was NO log to /var/log/xorg.0.log.
Can someone suggest how can I understand what's wrong with debian install? ... or is the implicit answer to go to Mint?
After zillions of messages discussing what I should, should not, and perhaps would, do (not to mention the "meaning of should" to which we should give a cold shoulder) is there someone willing to give some hint?
The best I got is "It works fine on my machine" (implying I must be non compos mentis).
I have high respect of Debian philosophy and practice, but the list seems to be drifting a way a bit too much.
Signal/noise ratio is dangerously approaching usenet standards.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really tired right now (05:18 AM here and i finished coffee supply some hours ago)
g'nite!
Mauro


Il 23/11/2015 02:06, Felix Miata ha scritto:
> Gene Heskett composed on 2015-11-22 19:29 (UTC-0500):
>
>> Felix Miata wrote:
>>> Xorg.0.log contains bits that can be considerd personal in nature.
>> How so? I don't recall ever seeing a passwd, or a list of my meds
>> included in it.
>> Please explain just what it is in the way of personal info that we are to
>> expunge before posting.
> "can be considered" means opinions are involved, and possibly nothing is
> actually risky or personal or needs redaction. I'm not going to catalog what
> bits might be among them. One to consider:
>
> 	hostname

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#161040

Mauro Condarelli composed on 2015-11-23 05:19 (UTC+0100):

> No need to make so much fuss about the way I sent logs: I sent them directly attaching them in Thunderbird and via paste.debian.net.

I never found any link in any of your emails to paste.debian.net

> In my case there was NO log to /var/log/xorg.0.log.

What about /var/log/Xorg.0.log? If none, it indicates your installation
included no Xorg or KDE or Gnome or etc. was installed. What exactly appeared
on the two monitors attached to the same "card"?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#161041

http://paste.debian.net/334935/ Is the lspci/lsmod of working (4 monitors) Linux Mint.
http://paste.debian.net/335124/ Is the dmesg/lspci/lsmod of the non-ok debian (2 monitors on Nvidia, intel monitors dead and second NVidia monitor misbehaving (no background redraw))

In both cases no /var/log/Xorg.#.log was generated.
Apparently you have to request it explicitly in /etc/X11/xorg.conf (or equivalent).
In my (current) case I had no configuration, so xorg server was "free to chose".

Thanks in advance for any hint.
Regards
Mauro


Il 23/11/2015 05:37, Felix Miata ha scritto:
> Mauro Condarelli composed on 2015-11-23 05:19 (UTC+0100):
>
>> No need to make so much fuss about the way I sent logs: I sent them directly attaching them in Thunderbird and via paste.debian.net.
> I never found any link in any of your emails to paste.debian.net
>
>> In my case there was NO log to /var/log/xorg.0.log.
> What about /var/log/Xorg.0.log? If none, it indicates your installation
> included no Xorg or KDE or Gnome or etc. was installed. What exactly appeared
> on the two monitors attached to the same "card"?

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#161042

On Monday 23 November 2015 05:19:43 Mauro Condarelli wrote:
> In my case there was NO log to /var/log/xorg.0.log.

Since xorg-server (2:1.17.3-1), Xorg log may end up in ~/.local/share/xorg/

Hope this helps
-- 
 https://github.com/dod38fr/   -o- http://search.cpan.org/~ddumont/
http://ddumont.wordpress.com/  -o-   irc: dod at irc.debian.org

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#161043

That is indeed the case; thanks.

log of the "failing" debian installation is now at: http://paste.debian.net/335212/

The only "strange" thing I see is: "[ 7.709] (WW) VGA arbiter: cannot open kernel arbiter, no multi-card support"

Is it relevant? If so what does it mean (and how do I fix it)?
I tried googling, but I didn't find a good answer (I understood this is connected to VGA text-mode, but ansvers weren't positive).

Any hint welcome.

Do You need a log also for the "working" Linux Mint live CD (USB, actually) boot process?

Thanks
Mauro

Il 23/11/2015 08:32, Dominique Dumont ha scritto:
> On Monday 23 November 2015 05:19:43 Mauro Condarelli wrote:
>> In my case there was NO log to /var/log/xorg.0.log.
> Since xorg-server (2:1.17.3-1), Xorg log may end up in ~/.local/share/xorg/
>
> Hope this helps

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#161044

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 08:32:43AM +0100, Dominique Dumont wrote:
> On Monday 23 November 2015 05:19:43 Mauro Condarelli wrote:
> > In my case there was NO log to /var/log/xorg.0.log.
> 
> Since xorg-server (2:1.17.3-1), Xorg log may end up in ~/.local/share/xorg/
> 
> Hope this helps

I've only got xserver-xorg installed.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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#161049

On Monday 23 November 2015 22:15:29 Chris Bannister wrote:
> > Since xorg-server (2:1.17.3-1), Xorg log may end up in
> > ~/.local/share/xorg/
> >
> 
> I've only got xserver-xorg installed.

xorg-server is the name of the source package. xserver-xorg binary packages 
are built from that source package.

See https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/xorg-server

Sorry for the confusion.

All the best

-- 
 https://github.com/dod38fr/   -o- http://search.cpan.org/~ddumont/
http://ddumont.wordpress.com/  -o-   irc: dod at irc.debian.org

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#161050

>> Useful hints are most often found in Xorg.0.log, which for some people at
>> least, is better seen in a "pastebin"[1] than an email attachment.
> Please stop suggesting that! Logs inline or as an attachment are fine.

Agreed.  `pastebin' sucks rocks because when you search the internet for
an error message, all the occurrences in pastebin only tell you "oh,
someone else got this message as well" but don't let you see the
discussion that surrounds it, which is the more interesting part of
the info.


        Stefan

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