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LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's

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  LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-18 01:10 +0100
    Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2015-11-18 09:10 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-18 10:30 +0100
    Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 11:10 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-18 14:10 +0100
        Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 01:50 +0100
          Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-11-20 08:50 +0100
            Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-11-20 23:30 +0100
              Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2015-11-21 09:20 +0100
                Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 20:00 +0100
                  Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's "John L. Ries" <jries@salford-systems.com> - 2015-11-21 20:10 +0100
              Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-21 13:40 +0100
          Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2015-11-20 09:30 +0100
          Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-21 13:20 +0100
            Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-11-21 22:00 +0100
            Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 23:50 +0100
              Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-22 13:00 +0100
    Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2015-11-18 17:00 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-19 13:40 +0100
    Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's "John L. Ries" <jries@salford-systems.com> - 2015-11-18 18:40 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-18 20:20 +0100
        Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's "John L. Ries" <jries@salford-systems.com> - 2015-11-18 20:30 +0100
        Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-11-18 23:50 +0100
    Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2015-11-18 19:30 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2015-11-18 20:00 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Stephan Seitz <stse+debian@fsing.rootsland.net> - 2015-11-18 20:20 +0100
    Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Javi Barroso <javibarroso@gmail.com> - 2015-11-21 09:10 +0100
      Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-21 12:40 +0100
    [PARTAL success]   Re: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-11-23 00:40 +0100

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#160711 — LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's

In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for 
ease of adjusting space.

When searching for more information all I'm finding are 
essentially HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" 
and "Whys". Essentially nothing on "Why not".

No information on dual boot.

Suggestions?

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#160717

Richard Owlett a écrit :
> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for 
> ease of adjusting space.
> 
> When searching for more information all I'm finding are 
> essentially HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" 
> and "Whys". Essentially nothing on "Why not".
> 
> No information on dual boot.
> 
> Suggestions?

Suggestions about what ? Do you have precise questions ?

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#160727

On 11/18/2015 2:03 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Richard Owlett a écrit :
>> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for
>> ease of adjusting space.
>>
>> When searching for more information all I'm finding are
>> essentially HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats"
>> and "Whys". Essentially nothing on "Why not".
>>
>> No information on dual boot.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>
> Suggestions about what ? Do you have precise questions ?
>
>

Perhaps I should have said "What should I be reading?"
I don't yet know enough about LVM to be precise.

Introductions to journalism sometimes refer to "the 5 W's and 
sometimes H" meaning "Who, What, When, Where, Why and sometimes 
How". What I'm finding is almost pure "How" with a dash of 
"What". I particularly need understanding of When/Where and Why.

[I've been a computer _user_ since the days of CORC and CUPL in 
the 60's. Noe, as a retiree, I've time to understand the guts.]

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#160730

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

2015/11/18 9:09 "Richard Owlett" <rowlett@cloud85.net>:
>
> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for ease of
adjusting space.

Yeah. I'm not using it now, but it did come in handy when I was still
getting a feeling for partitioning.

> When searching for more information all I'm finding are essentially
HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" and "Whys". Essentially
nothing on "Why not".
>

Reasons not to use it range from laziness to not needing it after all
(right now) to wanting to use incompatible software. My impression is that
the incompatible software usually tells you somewhere it's not compatible.

> No information on dual boot.

That's fairly straightforward.

> Suggestions?

man -k lvm   ?

Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.

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#160734

On 11/18/2015 4:07 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> 2015/11/18 9:09 "Richard Owlett":
>>
>> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for ease
>>  of adjusting space.
>
> Yeah. I'm not using it now, but it did come in handy when I was
> still getting a feeling for partitioning.

I've a machine set aside for experimenting with how an install is 
configured for a couple of personal projects. Relative space 
usage cannot be determined in advance.

>
>> When searching for more information all I'm finding are essentially HOWTO's
>>  with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" and "Whys". 
Essentially nothing
>>  on "Why not".
>>
>
> Reasons not to use it range from laziness to not needing it after
> all (right now) to wanting to use incompatible software. My
> impression is that the incompatible software usually tells you
> somewhere it's not compatible.

I have a current possible use but want to know in advance of 
rough spots to
estimate if the effort is likely to be productive.
>
>> No information on dual boot.
>
> That's fairly straightforward.
>
>> Suggestions?
>
> man -k lvm   ?

That lead to a productive but OT rabbit trail ;)
Man pages are by design inherently very detailed HOWTO's.

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#160833

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
> On 11/18/2015 4:07 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> 2015/11/18 9:09 "Richard Owlett":
>>>
>>>
>>> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for ease
>>>  of adjusting space.
>>
>>
>> Yeah. I'm not using it now, but it did come in handy when I was
>> still getting a feeling for partitioning.
>
>
> I've a machine set aside for experimenting with how an install is configured
> for a couple of personal projects. Relative space usage cannot be determined
> in advance.

Sounds like an excellent reason to at least experiment with LVM.

One reason I used it in the past was that, for some reason, I did not
want to use the so-called DOS/BIOS (or linux) extended partitions and
I needed lots of partitions. LVM is a bit more flexible. (I don't
recall trying to use more than one linux extended partition, I've only
recognized that they seem to exist lately.)

With GPT the limits on numbers of partitions, etc., are supposedly
relaxed, but I haven't done that, yet.

>>> When searching for more information all I'm finding are essentially
>>> HOWTO's
>>>  with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" and "Whys".
>
> Essentially nothing

Uhm, no news is good news?

>>>
>>>  on "Why not".
>>>
>>
>> Reasons not to use it range from laziness to not needing it after
>> all (right now) to wanting to use incompatible software. My
>> impression is that the incompatible software usually tells you
>> somewhere it's not compatible.
>
>
> I have a current possible use but want to know in advance of rough spots to
> estimate if the effort is likely to be productive.

Rough spots?

I never saw any in over ten years of use. That's part of the reason
you don't hear much about it.

Well, the GUI gadget is a bit slow, slower than gparted when
re-scanning your disk after an edit is applied. But that's only a
problem when you are in a rush, but you really don't want to be in
that kind of a rush when messing with your partitions.

LVM is much more flexible and less prone to do things to your data
than, say, the tools that re-size your partitions the hard way. You do
still have to exercise common sense, however.

I've lost a re-sized partition permanently using a commercial tool
whose name I refuse to remember.

I lost a bunch of LVM  partitions once through pure carelessness and
used the LVM maintenance tools to recover them. Took a couple of hours
to read the manuals, recover, and be on my way. Kept using that
partition map for several years with no problems.

>>> No information on dual boot.
>>
>> That's fairly straightforward.

I think I have heard of people booting straight out of LVM partitions,
but that takes more gum tape than I like to use. I do believe grub is
able to look into LVM partitions somewhat these days, so you may want
to play with having grub on a ("BIOS/DOS" map) primary partition
booting to a boot/root partition in an LVM managed logical volume.

>>> Suggestions?
>>
>> man -k lvm   ?
>
> That lead to a productive but OT rabbit trail ;)
> Man pages are by design inherently very detailed HOWTO's.
>

No, those are not rabbit trails. That's basically the stuff you need
to know when you are considering using it.

If you are worried about it, use your experimenting box first. If not,
I'm not sure why you would think twice unless your RAID docs say they
don't play nice with LVM (or LVM doesn't play nice with them) or, say,
you are using that XML file system or some other exotic file system.

your usual efs2, 3, and 4 all work fine in LVM partitions. After
adding extents to a logical partition, you may need to add inodes, and
you do want to be careful when shrinking a partitition with live data
in it.  (Common sense, right? Back-up the data, etc.)

Oh, use the GUI at first. It helps you visualize what you are doing.
Other than being slow, it works well for initial partitioning, adding
extents, and reminding yourself where the spare physical partitions
are, etc.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

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#160840

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 09:46:34AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> LVM is much more flexible and less prone to do things to your data
> than, say, the tools that re-size your partitions the hard way. You do
> still have to exercise common sense, however.
> 
> I've lost a re-sized partition permanently using a commercial tool
> whose name I refuse to remember.
> 
> I lost a bunch of LVM  partitions once through pure carelessness and
> used the LVM maintenance tools to recover them. Took a couple of hours
> to read the manuals, recover, and be on my way. Kept using that
> partition map for several years with no problems.

Please don't confuse physical volumes and partitions, the OP seems
confused enough already. :)

http://linuxconfig.org/linux-lvm-logical-volume-manager

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

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#160883

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Chris Bannister
<cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 09:46:34AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
>> LVM is much more flexible and less prone to do things to your data
>> than, say, the tools that re-size your partitions the hard way.

Thinking in terms of partitions as the things you mount in /etc/fstab.

The confusion about what exatly a partition is does not resolve itself
easily. You think you have it figured out, but then you try to tell
someone about it and they often have different understanding of the
underlying terms.

Everyone who talks about it seems to use the terms differently.

>> You do
>> still have to exercise common sense, however.
>>
>> I've lost a re-sized partition permanently using a commercial tool
>> whose name I refuse to remember.
>>
>> I lost a bunch of LVM  partitions once through pure carelessness and
>> used the LVM maintenance tools to recover them. Took a couple of hours
>> to read the manuals, recover, and be on my way. Kept using that
>> partition map for several years with no problems.
>
> Please don't confuse physical volumes and partitions, the OP seems
> confused enough already. :)

Indeed, I was not being clear. :(

> http://linuxconfig.org/linux-lvm-logical-volume-manager

And that might be the sort of overview the OP was looking for, even
though it looks more liike instructions for use.

:-/

> --
> "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
> who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
> oppressing." --- Malcolm X
>

I wonder if I have time to write something up that might help resolve
this confusion today.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

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#160893

Joel Rees a écrit :
> 
> Thinking in terms of partitions as the things you mount in /etc/fstab.

Err, no. The things you mount in /etc/fstab are filesystems, not
partitions. A filesystem may not even lie in a partition or volume
(think about tmpfs, nfs...).

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#160936

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> wrote:
> Joel Rees a écrit :
>>
>> Thinking in terms of partitions as the things you mount in /etc/fstab.
>
> Err, no.

Sometimes you think of things in ways that don't match the common
convention. Sometimes those ways of thinking spill out onto the WWW.

Anyone else feeling the desparate need to correct me, go ahead, just
realize you are going to add to the confusion.

> The things you mount in /etc/fstab are filesystems, not
> partitions. A filesystem may not even lie in a partition or volume
> (think about tmpfs, nfs...).

That's the common way of explaining fstab, and it is, indeed, the way
I should have explained it if I were going to bother explaining it
where slaves to convention congregate.

But, one, I don't have time to pull in the entire set of common
convention definitions every time I comment on a mailing list, and,
two, many here are not familiar with all the common conventions yet,
and, three, there are often contexts in which slavery to convention
neatly avoids mapping the concepts that are being confused.

Sorry for the acid spill, Pascal. You are not the one who raised the
PH level of my mental processes, you just happened to tip the beaker
was all. Chris was a little more to blame, but the primary blame for
my attitude right now is  not on this list. And that's my problem, not
the list's.

But there are a lot of people here who could profit by giving each
other a break.

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

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#160937

On Sat, 2015-11-21 at 12:55 -0600, Joel Rees wrote:
> That's the common way of explaining fstab, and it is, indeed, the way
> I should have explained it if I were going to bother explaining it
> where slaves to convention congregate.

I agree with your points, but it's rude to sneer.

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#160913

On 11/20/2015 4:28 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Chris Bannister
> <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
> [snip]
>> http://linuxconfig.org/linux-lvm-logical-volume-manager
>
> And that might be the sort of overview the OP was looking for, even
> though it looks more liike instructions for use.

It may be more easily massaged into a usable layout than than 
many HOTO's.
See my comments to Javi Barroso about differences in visual noise 
in Wikipedia "mobile" and "desktop" page layouts.

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#160846

Joel Rees a écrit :
> 
> I think I have heard of people booting straight out of LVM partitions,
> but that takes more gum tape than I like to use. I do believe grub is
> able to look into LVM partitions somewhat these days,

Indeed. And Linux software RAID.

> so you may want
> to play with having grub on a ("BIOS/DOS" map) primary partition
> booting to a boot/root partition in an LVM managed logical volume.

Using a logical volume as the root filesystem does not require the
bootloader to be able to read LVM. It just requires an initrd or
initramfs, because the kernel itself cannot read LVM on its own. Only
having /boot on LVM requires the bootloader to be able to read LVM.

The same goes with software RAID.

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#160908

On 11/19/2015 6:46 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>> On 11/18/2015 4:07 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>>
>>> 2015/11/18 9:09 "Richard Owlett":
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for ease
>>>>   of adjusting space.[snip]
>> I've a machine set aside for experimenting with how an install is configured
>> for a couple of personal projects. Relative space usage cannot be determined
>> in advance.
>
> Sounds like an excellent reason to at least experiment with LVM. ...
>>>> When searching for more information all I'm finding are essentially
>>>> HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" and "Whys".
>>
>> Essentially nothing
>
> Uhm, no news is good news?

Not really. i.e. if all you have is a hammer, everything looks 
like a nail.

>
>>>>
>>>>   on "Why not".
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reasons not to use it range from laziness to not needing it after
>>> all (right now) to wanting to use incompatible software. My
>>> impression is that the incompatible software usually tells you
>>> somewhere it's not compatible.
>>
>>
>> I have a current possible use but want to know in advance of rough spots to
>> estimate if the effort is likely to be productive.
>
> Rough spots?

In the sense of appropriate/inappropriate applications (cf hammer 
vs screw).

> [snip]
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> man -k lvm   ?
>>
>> That lead to a productive but OT rabbit trail ;)
>> Man pages are by design inherently very detailed HOWTO's.
>>
>
> No, those are not rabbit trails. That's basically the stuff you need
> to know when you are considering using it.

My analogy would be "When planning a trip thru NYC, via Grand 
Central and Penn Station, are you really interested in number of 
steps between levels of intervening subway stations?"

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#160940

On Sat 21 Nov 2015 at 06:13:37 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

> My analogy would be "When planning a trip thru NYC, via Grand Central and
> Penn Station, are you really interested in number of steps between levels of
> intervening subway stations?"

You are at liberty to answer your own question. It might provide some
help to travellers on a metro system, particlarly those with restricted
mobility.

Meanwhile, I'd suggest you get on with investigating LVM and stop
moaning about any lack of information about it - which there is not.

If you have a particular query about LVM, ask it. And stop restricting
the type of response in the subject line or body of the mail; it isn't
helpful to responders and is likely to be ignored by sensible people.

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#160947

On Saturday 21 November 2015 12:13:37 Richard Owlett wrote:
> My analogy would be "When planning a trip thru NYC, via Grand
> Central and Penn Station, are you really interested in number of
> steps between levels of intervening subway stations?"

Very much so.  I spend much time sorting out just that.  It makes the 
difference between a manageable journey and a non-starter.  Now if it has 
lifts for every level change...  Underground traIns (subway) never do, but 
Railway Trains sometimes do.  Hence the planning.

Lisi

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#160969

On 11/21/2015 4:40 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Saturday 21 November 2015 12:13:37 Richard Owlett wrote:
>> My analogy would be "When planning a trip thru NYC, via Grand
>> Central and Penn Station, are you really interested in number of
>> steps between levels of intervening subway stations?"
>
> Very much so.  I spend much time sorting out just that.  It makes the
> difference between a manageable journey and a non-starter.  Now if it has
> lifts for every level change...  Underground traIns (subway) never do, but
> Railway Trains sometimes do.  Hence the planning.
>
> Lisi


Point taken. The last seven years have taught me "drive on 
pavement, damaged vertebrae impede mobility". Minimally I use two 
canes, on occasion a wheelchair. I was using an image from when I 
worked in NYC.

Maybe a better illustration would be based on not seeing the 
forest for the trees.

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#160752

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 06:08:49PM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

>In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for ease of 
>adjusting space.
>
>When searching for more information all I'm finding are essentially 
>HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats" and "Whys". 
>Essentially nothing on "Why not".
>
>No information on dual boot.
>
>Suggestions?
>

The patent for logical volumes, 
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=US&NR=5129088&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP, 
might give you an idea of the motivation of LVM.

Also note that LVM on linux is quite intimately linked to the Device 
Mapper system. 

-- For more information, please reread.

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#160794

On 11/18/2015 9:58 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 06:08:49PM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for
>> ease of adjusting space.
>>
>> When searching for more information all I'm finding are
>> essentially HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats"
>> and "Whys". Essentially nothing on "Why not".
>>
>> No information on dual boot.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>>
>
> The patent for logical volumes,
> http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=US&NR=5129088&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP,
> might give you an idea of the motivation of LVM.

Using that to get the patent number, I found 
http://www.uspto.gov/ easier to navigate.
Once I edit out the "lawyer talk" it should be informative.

>
> Also note that LVM on linux is quite intimately linked to the
> Device Mapper system.

Web search for "Device Mapper" was illuminating.

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#160757

Which systems do you intend to dual boot?  My understanding is that if 
one of them is Windows, you're out of luck; but you can always run 
Windows in a VM and let Linux manage the LVM file systems.

--------------------------|
John L. Ries              |
Salford Systems           |
Phone: (619)543-8880 x107 |
or     (435)867-8885      |
--------------------------|


On Tuesday 2015-11-17 17:08, Richard Owlett wrote:

>Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 17:08:49
>From: Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net>
>To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
>Subject: LVM info - OTHER than HOWTO's
>
> In some of my reading I came across a page recommending LVM for
> ease of adjusting space.
>
> When searching for more information all I'm finding are
> essentially HOWTO's with only a couple of paragraphs on "Whats"
> and "Whys". Essentially nothing on "Why not".
>
> No information on dual boot.
>
> Suggestions?
>
>
>

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