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a little jessie whinage

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  a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-11 05:00 +0200
    Re: a little jessie whinage David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-10-11 07:30 +0200
      Re: a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-11 09:30 +0200
        Re: a little jessie whinage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-10-11 20:40 +0200
          Re: a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-11 21:30 +0200
            Re: a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-11 22:30 +0200
            Re: a little jessie whinage Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2015-10-11 22:30 +0200
            Re: a little jessie whinage Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> - 2015-10-11 23:00 +0200
              Re: a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-11 23:10 +0200
              Re: a little jessie whinage Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2015-10-11 23:20 +0200
            Re: a little jessie whinage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-10-12 00:20 +0200
    Re: a little jessie whinage <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-10-11 12:20 +0200
      Re: a little jessie whinage tomas@tuxteam.de - 2015-10-11 13:20 +0200
      Re: a little jessie whinage Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2015-10-11 17:10 +0200
    Re: a little jessie whinage Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2015-10-11 22:20 +0200
      Re: a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-11 22:30 +0200
        Re: a little jessie whinage Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2015-10-11 23:30 +0200
        Re: a little jessie whinage Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 00:00 +0200
        Re: a little jessie whinage David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-10-12 06:50 +0200
          Re: a little jessie whinage Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> - 2015-10-12 09:40 +0200
            Re: a little jessie whinage Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-10-13 04:00 +0200
              Re: a little jessie whinage Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 10:40 +0200
              Re: a little jessie whinage Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-10-13 15:10 +0200

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#158826 — a little jessie whinage

I put Jessie on a laptop. 'hostname -f' said it couldn't do it (don't remember the error message, but it was, essentially, "Oops").

The instructions on the 'Net for fixing the missing domain name in Jessie were the same as they've always been: put the fully qualified domain name (fqdn) with the IP in /etc/hosts. They were already there, so I moved them to the top, like the picture on the web, and rebooted. Didn't work. 

I saw another suggestion from somewhere else: put the domain name in /etc/resolv.conf. I did that and got my 'hostname -f' working. 'hostname --ip-address' worked too.

The problem with that is that there's a line at the top of the resolv.conf: "Generated by NetworkManager." So I went to /usr/sbin, moved NetworkManager to NetworkManagerqw, and created an executable NetworkManager shell script that put the right info in resolv.conf. A reboot wiped the file and put that "Generated..." line back at the top with nothing else in the file. The file is rewritten from scratch on boot. 

'strings' tells me that the "Generated..." string is in /usr/sbin/NetWorkManagerqw. 

I spent a long time trying to find out where the faulty resolv.conf was being created and how to either get it out of the way so I could just write it myself, or at least get it to put the right info in the file. (Failed)

This is what we're supposed to use for servers on the Internet? That error would kill the iptables packet filters on all my servers if I put Jessie on them.

Now far be it from me to throw more gasoline on the systemd flames, but this is unacceptable. System V was certainly a mess too, with all those files being sourced into the init.d files. But it did bring up the kernel and a few daemons, and 'hostname -f' worked. If I were the powers that be at Debian, I'd have done a little work cleaning up System V instead of going to what seems to be buggy, a little too smart for its own good, and next to impossible to decipher, init software. 

Debian has a well deserved reputation for being some of the most stable software available. Sid is supposed to be broken, and that's fine -- it's alpha and its bugs get fixed as it slides down the hill. But when it gets to stable it's supposed to work. Real good, and all the time.

Thank you for your attention...

-- 
Glenn English

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#158828

Quoting Glenn English (ghe@slsware.net):
> I put Jessie on a laptop. 'hostname -f' said it couldn't do it (don't remember the error message, but it was, essentially, "Oops").

Couldn't do what?

> The instructions on the 'Net for fixing the missing domain name in Jessie were the same as they've always been: put the fully qualified domain name (fqdn) with the IP in /etc/hosts. They were already there, so I moved them to the top, like the picture on the web, and rebooted. Didn't work. 

Like what picture on the web? How about you post your /etc/hosts.

> I saw another suggestion from somewhere else: put the domain name in /etc/resolv.conf. I did that and got my 'hostname -f' working. 'hostname --ip-address' worked too.

Random suggestions from the net?

> The problem with that is that there's a line at the top of the resolv.conf: "Generated by NetworkManager." So I went to /usr/sbin, moved NetworkManager to NetworkManagerqw, and created an executable NetworkManager shell script that put the right info in resolv.conf. A reboot wiped the file and put that "Generated..." line back at the top with nothing else in the file. The file is rewritten from scratch on boot. 

That doesn't surprise me. I have resolvconf installed. It takes
responsibility for /etc/resolv.conf.

> 'strings' tells me that the "Generated..." string is in /usr/sbin/NetWorkManagerqw. 
> 
> I spent a long time trying to find out where the faulty resolv.conf was being created and how to either get it out of the way so I could just write it myself, or at least get it to put the right info in the file. (Failed)
> 
> This is what we're supposed to use for servers on the Internet? That error would kill the iptables packet filters on all my servers if I put Jessie on them.

I thought this was a laptop. What domainname do you expect it to have?
Does it need one? Mine doesn't. But it does sound like your networking
configuration is messed up. Weren't you having networking problems
earlier this week? Could that be connected?

> Now far be it from me to throw more gasoline on the systemd flames, but this is unacceptable. System V was certainly a mess too, with all those files being sourced into the init.d files. But it did bring up the kernel and a few daemons, and 'hostname -f' worked. If I were the powers that be at Debian, I'd have done a little work cleaning up System V instead of going to what seems to be buggy, a little too smart for its own good, and next to impossible to decipher, init software. 
> 
> Debian has a well deserved reputation for being some of the most stable software available. Sid is supposed to be broken, and that's fine -- it's alpha and its bugs get fixed as it slides down the hill. But when it gets to stable it's supposed to work. Real good, and all the time.
> 
> Thank you for your attention...

If it's unacceptable, why don't you just stick with sysv. It's a
no-brainer if you install a minimal wheezy and immediately upgrade.

Cheers,
David.

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#158832

On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:28 PM, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

> If it's unacceptable, why don't you just stick with sysv.

I just expect Debian stable to work correctly, like, as best I can remember, it always has. 

I wouldn't mind a new init system -- I've been through several in the past, and System V can certainly be a PITA sometimes. I'd like the new one to work, though. And it should be reasonably transparent, straightforward, and repairable when it doesn't.

-- 
Glenn English

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#158898

On Sun 11 Oct 2015 at 01:25:15 -0600, Glenn English wrote:

> 
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:28 PM, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > If it's unacceptable, why don't you just stick with sysv.
> 
> I just expect Debian stable to work correctly, like, as best I can
> remember, it always has.

Your expectations are too high. Things which are important to you get
fixed (maybe) in the testing phase. You can be part of this process.
Get stuck in for Stretch but try to avoid reports like

 > I put Jessie on a laptop. 'hostname -f' said it couldn't do it (don't
 > remember the error message, but it was, essentially, "Oops").

"Oops" conveys nothing. Which is probably why you didn't expand on it
when replying to David Wright.

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#158902

On Oct 11, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> Your expectations are too high. 

Don't agree. This is software is intended to run server(s) on the Internet (for me) and other important networks (for enterprise admins). For those applications, it needs to work for at least the trivial software.

'hostname -f' isn't rocket science -- it's just a small lookup. I suspect it goes to ifconfig for the IP then in hosts for the FQDN that matches the IP, or, apparently, resolv.conf and hostname. No major problem either way. It could easily be done with a short shell script (maybe it is, I haven't looked).

> "Oops" conveys nothing. Which is probably why you didn't expand on it
> when replying to David Wright.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. A next to meaningless error message. "Couldn't find in /etc/hosts, any IP given by ifconfig: <IP(s)>.", might be a little more useful.

-- 
Glenn English

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#158907

On Oct 11, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> wrote:

> it uses whatever is
> configured in nsswitch.conf; that means /etc/hosts first on a default
> install.

/etc/hosts didn't work. Putting the domain name in resolv.conf did. Maybe it shouldn't have, but that's what happened.

In the past, I've waited a year or so before installing stable. Maybe I should have this time...

-- 
Glenn English

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#158909

Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> writes:

> 'hostname -f' isn't rocket science -- it's just a small lookup. I
> suspect it goes to ifconfig for the IP then in hosts for the FQDN that
> matches the IP, or, apparently, resolv.conf and hostname.

You shouldn't suspect, it's in the Fine Manual. It calls into the C
library name/address resolution functions, so it uses whatever is
configured in nsswitch.conf; that means /etc/hosts first on a default
install. No need to call in an external resolver for that.

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
    --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

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#158911

On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:22:37 -0600
Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> wrote:

>
>On Oct 11, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Your expectations are too high. 
>
>Don't agree. This is software is intended to run server(s) on the Internet (for me) and other important networks (for enterprise admins). For those applications, it needs to work for at least the trivial software.
>
>'hostname -f' isn't rocket science -- it's just a small lookup. I suspect it goes to ifconfig for the IP then in hosts for the FQDN that matches the IP, or, apparently, resolv.conf and hostname. No major problem either way. It could easily be done with a short shell script (maybe it is, I haven't looked).
>
>> "Oops" conveys nothing. Which is probably why you didn't expand on it
>> when replying to David Wright.
>
>That's exactly what I was trying to say. A next to meaningless error message. "Couldn't find in /etc/hosts, any IP given by ifconfig: <IP(s)>.", might be a little more useful.
>

I am still learning. I can't help asking why you would not be using
something like dnsmasq instead of /etc/hosts on a server? Isn't it more
reliable?


-- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

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#158914

On Oct 11, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> wrote:

> I am still learning.

Good for you; most of us are :-)

> I can't help asking why you would not be using
> something like dnsmasq instead of /etc/hosts on a server? Isn't it more
> reliable?

Probably. /etc/hosts is just what the admin claimed last time the file was updated. Something like ifconfig, or some other similar software, would have a much better chance of getting the IP right because it could just look up what was actually assigned to the interface(s) when it was last brought up.

-- 
Glenn English

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#158916

On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 14:02:20 -0600
Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:22:37 -0600
> Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >On Oct 11, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Your expectations are too high. 
> >
> >Don't agree. This is software is intended to run server(s) on the
> >Internet (for me) and other important networks (for enterprise
> >admins). For those applications, it needs to work for at least the
> >trivial software.
> >
> >'hostname -f' isn't rocket science -- it's just a small lookup. I
> >suspect it goes to ifconfig for the IP then in hosts for the FQDN
> >that matches the IP, or, apparently, resolv.conf and hostname. No
> >major problem either way. It could easily be done with a short shell
> >script (maybe it is, I haven't looked).
> >
> >> "Oops" conveys nothing. Which is probably why you didn't expand on
> >> it when replying to David Wright.
> >
> >That's exactly what I was trying to say. A next to meaningless error
> >message. "Couldn't find in /etc/hosts, any IP given by ifconfig:
> ><IP(s)>.", might be a little more useful.
> >
> 
> I am still learning. I can't help asking why you would not be using
> something like dnsmasq instead of /etc/hosts on a server? Isn't it
> more reliable?
> 
> 

On a server, you would probably be using BIND, as the lighter DNS
software may cause obscure problems. I recall once using my home router
for DNS, until one day after a fairly tricky bit of email
troubleshooting, I discovered it wasn't returning *some* MX records...

If you're using BIND and dhcpd, it's not hard to link them to resolve
your local machines.

-- 
Joe

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#158930

On Sun 11 Oct 2015 at 13:22:37 -0600, Glenn English wrote:

> On Oct 11, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > "Oops" conveys nothing. Which is probably why you didn't expand on it
> > when replying to David Wright.
> 
> That's exactly what I was trying to say. A next to meaningless error
> message. "Couldn't find in /etc/hosts, any IP given by ifconfig:
> <IP(s)>.", might be a little more useful.

Firstly, you declare the error message was meaningless but do not give
the command used or the output from it.

Secondly, after being asked twice you propose a made up error message
to replace the one nobody is allowed to know.

Somewhere along the line there is a lack of meaningful communication.

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#158837

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On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 08:51:18PM -0600, Glenn English wrote:

[...]

> The problem with that is that there's a line at the top of the
> resolv.conf: "Generated by NetworkManager." [...]

A reason why I avoid NetworkManager since long (this has lead me
towards a leaner system overall ;-)

But one neat (and often forgotten) tool to debug the situation
"something is messing with a file and I don't know who does what
when" is chattr: just set the immutable attribute on the file
(sudo chattr -i <path to file>) and wait until the perpetrator
falls flat on its face (possibly complaining loudly).

Sometimes this even "fixes" the problem (for some dubious value
of "fixing", granted -- but in a pinch...)

hth
- -- tomás
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#158844

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On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:37:30AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> (sudo chattr -i <path to file>) and wait until the perpetrator

Sorry. That would be "chattr +i"

regards
- -- tomás
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#158873

On Sunday 11 October 2015 05:37:30 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 08:51:18PM -0600, Glenn English wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > The problem with that is that there's a line at the top of the
> > resolv.conf: "Generated by NetworkManager." [...]
>
> A reason why I avoid NetworkManager since long (this has lead me
> towards a leaner system overall ;-)
>
> But one neat (and often forgotten) tool to debug the situation
> "something is messing with a file and I don't know who does what
> when" is chattr: just set the immutable attribute on the file
> (sudo chattr -i <path to file>) and wait until the perpetrator
> falls flat on its face (possibly complaining loudly).

Network-mangler hasn't got the Chutzpah to complain when it finds that a, 
you've destroyed the link called /etc/resolv.conf to the file it links 
resov.conf to, and created your own correct version in place of that 
link. But just in case it gets smarter in its dotage, I chattr that 
created file to be read only.  End of problem for a small hosts file 
based local home network.  DNS queries are pointed at the router, 
running dd-wrt. So all machines have unlimited internet access too.

Actually, I think it probably does work on the file, but the link to make 
that file active no longer exists on my machines.  Once thats been done, 
then N-M can be removed IF the system isn't destroyed by the 
dependencies some distro's seem to put in the way just to harrass us 
into fighting with a brainless POS pile of code.  Removing it from the 
startup may be the best you can do to keep it from burning cpu cycles 
spinning its wheels.

And I don't have a quarter to call someone who cares & says its incorrect 
because it Just Works(TM).

> Sometimes this even "fixes" the problem (for some dubious value
> of "fixing", granted -- but in a pinch...)
>
> hth
> -- tomás


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#158906

Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> writes:

>
> This is what we're supposed to use for servers on the Internet?

No, for servers we don't install NetworkManager and resolvconf, and we
do static configuration.

Really, you should know better if you're going do whine.

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
    --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

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#158908

On Oct 11, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, for servers we don't install NetworkManager and resolvconf, and we
> do static configuration.

I didn't install NM, the installer did. I didn't know there was such a thing.

I did know enough, though, to toss resolvconf and hand write resolv.conf, in the past. resolvconf is straightforward enough to know what it does. It does one thing, but not too well.

> Really, you should know better if you're going do whine.

Yup. I should have removed NM as soon as I saw that label in resolv.conf.  I tried to. But if I'd been successful, I think I would have broken a lot of stuff in Jessie.

-- 
Glenn English

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#158921

Glenn English <ghe@slsware.net> writes:

> On Oct 11, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, for servers we don't install NetworkManager and resolvconf, and we
>> do static configuration.
>
> I didn't install NM, the installer did. I didn't know there was such a thing.
>
> I did know enough, though, to toss resolvconf and hand write
> resolv.conf, in the past. resolvconf is straightforward enough to know
> what it does. It does one thing, but not too well.
>
Obviously your experiences differ from mine. I run both on my laptop,
and it is resolvconf that is the horror for me, as I keep having to
occasionally purge the config because it once again is persistently
adding a name server to resolv.conf that is not available.

On the other hand, NM has run fine on my laptops ever since the 0.8
version.

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
    --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

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#158926

On Sunday 11 October 2015 21:20:40 Glenn English wrote:
> Yup. I should have removed NM as soon as I saw that label in resolv.conf.
>  I tried to. But if I'd been successful, I think I would have broken a lot
> of stuff in Jessie.

Didn't you say that this was a server?  Surely it must be possible to remove 
NM.  You can't be running Gnome on a server - can you???

Lisi

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#158938

Quoting Glenn English (ghe@slsware.net):
> 
> On Oct 11, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > No, for servers we don't install NetworkManager and resolvconf, and we
> > do static configuration.
> 
> I didn't install NM, the installer did. I didn't know there was such a thing.
> 
> I did know enough, though, to toss resolvconf and hand write resolv.conf, in the past. resolvconf is straightforward enough to know what it does. It does one thing, but not too well.
> 
> > Really, you should know better if you're going do whine.
> 
> Yup. I should have removed NM as soon as I saw that label in resolv.conf.  I tried to. But if I'd been successful, I think I would have broken a lot of stuff in Jessie.

I thought the OP was about a laptop. How do you set a static address
for nameservers? Or do you never take it anywhere?

Cheers,
David.

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#158944

On Oct 11, 2015, at 10:45 PM, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

> I thought the OP was about a laptop.

It was. I put Jessie on my laptop to see what it was like. It's running Wheezy now. And all my troubles with Jessie are gone.

> How do you set a static address
> for nameservers?

On Wheezy, and everything back to Sarge, you put them in /etc/resolv.conf, delete/disable resovlconf (if any), and quit worrying about ham-fisted software scribbling all over your config file.

On my laptop, there's a static nameserver address used by eth0. wlan0 uses that too, when it can. But, IIRC, it's smart enough to go looking around if the local network is gone. 

> Or do you never take it anywhere?

Not very often. But it's scheduled for an outing tomorrow morning. I can check wlan0's roaming abilities then. If it hits an alien DHCP server, it may scribble all over my resolv.conf. We'll see.

-- 
Glenn English

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