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Groups > linux.debian.user > #156977 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-08-28 17:20 +0200 |
| Last post | 2015-08-30 15:10 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 126 — 27 participants |
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Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-28 17:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. claude juif <claude.juif@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 17:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 13:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. claude juif <claude.juif@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 13:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 14:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 21:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-28 18:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 18:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-08-29 01:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 12:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 15:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 15:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 16:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-08-29 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 16:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-08-29 17:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 16:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 16:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 02:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 10:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 14:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 15:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 14:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 10:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-29 15:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 23:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 00:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-08-30 17:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-30 17:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-08-30 20:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-30 21:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 21:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-30 21:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-30 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 22:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2015-08-31 00:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 06:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 12:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 22:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 16:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 20:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T. J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 22:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 17:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-02 17:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-03 11:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 14:30 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 18:10 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-09-01 03:00 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 05:30 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2015-09-01 11:40 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 15:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 19:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 15:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> - 2015-09-01 15:50 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-01 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-03 11:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-05 06:00 +0200
Re: uselessd Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-30 23:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-31 09:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 14:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-31 14:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 18:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-31 17:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 17:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 18:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 20:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 20:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2015-08-31 20:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 20:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 21:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-31 18:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 19:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 19:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 20:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> - 2015-08-31 21:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2015-08-31 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-09-02 10:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 12:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-09-03 07:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 08:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-03 16:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiatipy.org> - 2015-09-02 12:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-09-02 12:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-09-03 17:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2015-09-03 18:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-09-03 19:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2015-09-03 21:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-03 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-09-03 22:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-09-03 08:30 +0200
Re: How to exit /bin/sh Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 23:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-31 18:40 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-09-01 02:50 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 03:00 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-09-03 01:20 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 10:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 20:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 21:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-01 13:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 15:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-01 16:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 16:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-01 16:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 18:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 04:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 15:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-03 05:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2015-09-03 05:40 +0200
Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 18:30 +0200
Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 07:50 +0200
Can malware qualify as free software? Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Can malware qualify as free software? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Can malware qualify as free software? Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 18:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-03 10:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 03:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 15:10 +0200
Page 5 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 Next page →
| From | Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 19:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3Bns-6mn-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157244 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit : > > What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key > > sequence to exit it? > Using su to change user. Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary. Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them (assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or sound like something. "machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently, typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter alias. Entirely your choice. su, on the other hand, is taking a valuable 1/676 of the completion namespace for itself, whether you use it or not, whether you want it or not. If Poettering had used a short command for his new tool, that would have been a valid complaint against it, because anyone can make something they use shorter and more accessible, but once something is in the way, it stays there. Regards, -- Nicolas George
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| From | Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 20:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3C0a-7l6-37@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157245 |
Hi. On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:42:20 +0200 Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote: > Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit : > > > What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key > > > sequence to exit it? > > Using su to change user. > > Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less > disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary. > > Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them > (assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or > sound like something. > > "machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that > cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by > accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently, > typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a > shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you > need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter > alias. Entirely your choice. Have you ever tried to dictate some commands over the phone (bonus points are granted if the recipient does not know English)? In this particular case, "more is less", and "less is more". Reco
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| From | Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 21:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3CMy-8uA-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157245 |
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:42:20 +0200 Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote: >Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit : >> > What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key >> > sequence to exit it? >> Using su to change user. > >Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less >disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary. > >Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them >(assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or >sound like something. > >"machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that >cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by >accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently, >typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a >shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you >need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter >alias. Entirely your choice. > >su, on the other hand, is taking a valuable 1/676 of the completion >namespace for itself, whether you use it or not, whether you want it or not. > >If Poettering had used a short command for his new tool, that would have >been a valid complaint against it, because anyone can make something they >use shorter and more accessible, but once something is in the way, it stays >there. > >Regards, > To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed "Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any other method to exit this new shell command. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com]
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| From | Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 21:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3DfB-Bf-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157254 |
Le 31/08/2015 20:53, Charlie Kravetz a écrit : > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:42:20 +0200 > Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote: > >> Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit : >>>> What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key >>>> sequence to exit it? >>> Using su to change user. >> Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less >> disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary. >> >> Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them >> (assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or >> sound like something. >> >> "machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that >> cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by >> accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently, >> typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a >> shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you >> need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter >> alias. Entirely your choice. >> >> su, on the other hand, is taking a valuable 1/676 of the completion >> namespace for itself, whether you use it or not, whether you want it or not. >> >> If Poettering had used a short command for his new tool, that would have >> been a valid complaint against it, because anyone can make something they >> use shorter and more accessible, but once something is in the way, it stays >> there. >> >> Regards, >> > To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed > "Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very > unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To > specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any > other method to exit this new shell command. > It is also very US centric, because on non US keybaord that combination can be difficult to press (eg on french keyboard).
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| From | Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 10:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4bqX-7Rc-27@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157258 |
On 8/31/2015 12:45 PM, Erwan David wrote: > Le 31/08/2015 20:53, Charlie Kravetz a écrit : >> To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed >> "Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very >> unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To >> specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any >> other method to exit this new shell command. >> > It is also very US centric, because on non US keybaord that combination > can be difficult to press (eg on french keyboard). > I looked up the French keyboard layout. Granted I never had a reason to seek it out, but I have not seen anyone complain about 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+'Del' being difficult to press. Compared to that 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+')' to get ^] does not seem any more difficult. Unless you have set keyboard settings somewhere to have an excessively slow repeat, as opposed to a longer delay before the repeat kicks in, theoretically it should not be that hard to get 3 ^]s in 1 second. Or am I interpreting something incorrectly? It's been indicated elsewhere that the normal methods of exiting a shell session will work for this too and ^] is more of an emergency exit. Later, Seeker
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 12:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4dsK-2gU-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157329 |
On Wednesday 02 September 2015 09:09:45 Seeker wrote: > Unless you have set keyboard settings somewhere to have an excessively > slow repeat, > as opposed to a longer delay before the repeat kicks in, theoretically > it should not be > that hard to get 3 ^]s in 1 second. > > Or am I interpreting something incorrectly? Yes, you are. You are ignoring the part that said "disabled". Lisi
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| From | Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 07:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4vzj-2Si-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157333 |
On 9/2/2015 3:25 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Wednesday 02 September 2015 09:09:45 Seeker wrote: >> Unless you have set keyboard settings somewhere to have an excessively >> slow repeat, >> as opposed to a longer delay before the repeat kicks in, theoretically >> it should not be >> that hard to get 3 ^]s in 1 second. >> >> Or am I interpreting something incorrectly? > Yes, you are. You are ignoring the part that said "disabled". > > Lisi > Not ignoring, just questioning the need. *If* like people are saying you can type 'exit' or hit 'Ctrl'+'D' to exit then there are more familiar and on easier way to exit. Some of this may have to be revisited later once more people actually use it and have that first hand exposure to what works and what doesn't. Maybe ^] was added as an additional exit method because Lennart uses other stuff that accepts that to exit and thought it would be nice for people who use that method to be able to exit the shell session the same way. If ^] is an emergency exit, that would assume it will work when you can't type 'exit' and 'Ctrl'+'D' doesn't work either. If it isn't, why would you need ^] 3 times in a second. If it is going to work when 'exit' and 'Ctrl'+'D' don't, it would need to intercept the key presses and decide whether to act on them or pass the to whatever is running inside the shell. If you intend those key presses to go to the program running in the shell you don't want the shell to act on it on the first key press and exit when what you really wanted was to exit the program running inside the shell. Same thing with any other key combination, you don't want the shell to exit if what you really wanted was for something to happen inside the shell. There is an argument for an easier key combination, but how do you make it more accessible for people who can't hold down a key combination long enough for the repeat to kick in? Later, Seeker
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| From | Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 08:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4wc2-3Qp-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157356 |
On Thursday 03 September 2015 06:45:55 Seeker wrote: > On 9/2/2015 3:25 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > > On Wednesday 02 September 2015 09:09:45 Seeker wrote: > >> Unless you have set keyboard settings somewhere to have an excessively > >> slow repeat, > >> as opposed to a longer delay before the repeat kicks in, theoretically > >> it should not be > >> that hard to get 3 ^]s in 1 second. > >> > >> Or am I interpreting something incorrectly? > > > > Yes, you are. You are ignoring the part that said "disabled". > > > > Lisi > > Not ignoring, just questioning the need. Maybe one day you'll be (relevantly) disabled. Then you'll see the problem. Lisi > > *If* like people are saying you can type 'exit' or hit 'Ctrl'+'D' to > exit then there are more > familiar and on easier way to exit. > > Some of this may have to be revisited later once more people actually > use it and have > that first hand exposure to what works and what doesn't. > > Maybe ^] was added as an additional exit method because Lennart uses > other stuff that > accepts that to exit and thought it would be nice for people who use > that method to be > able to exit the shell session the same way. > > If ^] is an emergency exit, that would assume it will work when you > can't type 'exit' and > 'Ctrl'+'D' doesn't work either. If it isn't, why would you need ^] 3 > times in a second. > If it is going to work when 'exit' and 'Ctrl'+'D' don't, it would need > to intercept the key > presses and decide whether to act on them or pass the to whatever is > running inside the > shell. If you intend those key presses to go to the program running in > the shell you don't > want the shell to act on it on the first key press and exit when what > you really wanted was > to exit the program running inside the shell. Same thing with any other > key combination, > you don't want the shell to exit if what you really wanted was for > something to happen > inside the shell. > > There is an argument for an easier key combination, but how do you make > it more > accessible for people who can't hold down a key combination long enough > for the repeat > to kick in? > > Later, Seeker
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 16:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4DwT-5Yk-33@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157356 |
Quoting Seeker (seeker5528@comcast.net): > Some of this may have to be revisited later once more people actually > use it and have that first hand exposure to what works and what doesn't. ... > There is an argument for an easier key combination, but how do you > make it more accessible for people who can't hold down a key > combination long enough for the repeat to kick in? telnet -e sets the escape key you want to use. In the short term, you can redefine an infrequently-used key to send the appropriate code, eg through /etc/console-setup/remap.inc, because it seems more likely that you'll get stuck in a session on a (possibly sole) VC than on X. Cheers, David.
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| From | Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiatipy.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 12:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4dM5-2DA-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157329 |
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 01:09:45 -0700
Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed
> >> "Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very
> >> unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To
> >> specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any
> >> other method to exit this new shell command.
> > It is also very US centric, because on non US keybaord that combination
> > can be difficult to press (eg on french keyboard).
> I looked up the French keyboard layout.
> Granted I never had a reason to seek it out, but I have not seen anyone
> complain about
> 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+'Del' being difficult to press.
> Compared to that 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+')' to get ^] does not seem any more
> difficult.
Except that on my AZERTY keyboard 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+')' gets me nothing at all.
To get "]" I have to press "AltGr" + ")", which may explain why "Ctrl" + "AltGr" + ")" gives nothing.
Cheers,
Ron.
--
Never call a man a fool.
Borrow from him.
-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
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| From | Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 12:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4dM6-2DA-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157335 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
Le sextidi 16 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Renaud OLGIATI a écrit : > Except that on my AZERTY keyboard 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+')' gets me nothing at all. > > To get "]" I have to press "AltGr" + ")", which may explain why "Ctrl" + "AltGr" + ")" gives nothing. For me, Ctrl-AltGr-) gives ^] = 0x1D as expected, both with XTerm and the Linux console. Regards, -- Nicolas George
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 17:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4Ejg-78K-27@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157336 |
On 2015-09-02, Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote: > > For me, Ctrl-AltGr-) gives ^] as expected, both with XTerm and the > Linux console. Me too.
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| From | Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 18:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4FS3-M8-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157374 |
On Thursday 03 September 2015 15:09:12 Curt wrote: > On 2015-09-02, Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote: > > For me, Ctrl-AltGr-) gives ^] as expected, both with XTerm and the > > Linux console. > > Me too. Not me The Ctrl-AltGr level is not populated in my keyboard map. Intl-keyboard with German layout and dead keys. Switching to US-layout results in Ctrl-AltGr-] 9 Ctrl-AltGr-[ BACKSPACE, not 8 Ctrl-AltGr-= 0 This is the same as using the Ctrl-key without the additional AltGr. Latinamerican layout on the same keyboard has the same result (nil) as the German layout. Go figure ... Interesting things which I discovered with the trials: Typing Ctrl-- reduces the console fontsize in konsole (KDE) and typing Ctrl-+ magnifies the console fontsize. It is the same no matter if using German layout or US layout. Cheers Eike
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| From | Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 19:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4GEq-1WX-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157376 |
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Le septidi 17 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Eike Lantzsch a écrit : > Not me > The Ctrl-AltGr level is not populated in my keyboard map. It does not necessarily needs to. > Interesting things which I discovered with the trials: > Typing Ctrl-- reduces the console fontsize in konsole (KDE) and typing Ctrl-+ > magnifies the console fontsize. So you tested with konsole? Did you test with the Linux console and XTerm? Missing features in whizzbang tools would not be surprising. Regards, -- Nicolas George
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| From | Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 21:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4I3w-45w-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157377 |
On Thursday 03 September 2015 19:35:08 Nicolas George wrote: > Le septidi 17 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Eike Lantzsch a écrit : > > Not me > > The Ctrl-AltGr level is not populated in my keyboard map. > > It does not necessarily needs to. > > > Interesting things which I discovered with the trials: > > Typing Ctrl-- reduces the console fontsize in konsole (KDE) and typing > > Ctrl-+ magnifies the console fontsize. > > So you tested with konsole? Did you test with the Linux console and XTerm? > Missing features in whizzbang tools would not be surprising. > > Regards, Results with Linux console, xterm and with whizzbang tool are absolutely the same in this respect. Kind regards E.L.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 21:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4IGe-4OA-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157376 |
Quoting Eike Lantzsch (zp6cge@gmx.net): > On Thursday 03 September 2015 15:09:12 Curt wrote: > > On 2015-09-02, Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote: > > > For me, Ctrl-AltGr-) gives ^] as expected, both with XTerm and the > > > Linux console. > > > > Me too. > Not me > The Ctrl-AltGr level is not populated in my keyboard map. > Intl-keyboard with German layout and dead keys. If you want to find out where ^] has gone to on the console, you can type: dumpkeys -f | grep -i control_bracketright The (very long) lines that match will start with: keycode <N> = <X> ... where N is the number of the key if you wish to redefine it or add to its definition, and X is the unshifted key which will normally correspond to the engraving on that key. > Switching to US-layout results in > Ctrl-AltGr-] 9 > Ctrl-AltGr-[ BACKSPACE, not 8 > Ctrl-AltGr-= 0 > This is the same as using the Ctrl-key without the additional AltGr. > > Latinamerican layout on the same keyboard has the same result (nil) as the > German layout. What are you using as a prefix for these keystrokes? > Go figure ... > > Interesting things which I discovered with the trials: > Typing Ctrl-- reduces the console fontsize in konsole (KDE) and typing Ctrl-+ > magnifies the console fontsize. > It is the same no matter if using German layout or US layout. Fair enough. I see the same effect in iceweasel; very useful, but not much to do with escaping from machinectl. Cheers, David.
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 22:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4JiW-5N2-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157380 |
On 2015-09-03, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Interesting things which I discovered with the trials: >> Typing Ctrl-- reduces the console fontsize in konsole (KDE) and typing Ctrl-+ >> magnifies the console fontsize. >> It is the same no matter if using German layout or US layout. > > Fair enough. I see the same effect in iceweasel; very useful, but not > much to do with escaping from machinectl. I knew about that one in a browser (helpful when confronted with a tiny font--goes without saying, I guess). > Cheers, > David. >
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| From | Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 08:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4wc2-3Qp-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157335 |
On 9/2/2015 3:23 AM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 2 Sep 2015 01:09:45 -0700 > Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed >>>> "Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very >>>> unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To >>>> specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any >>>> other method to exit this new shell command. >>> It is also very US centric, because on non US keybaord that combination >>> can be difficult to press (eg on french keyboard). >> I looked up the French keyboard layout. >> Granted I never had a reason to seek it out, but I have not seen anyone >> complain about >> 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+'Del' being difficult to press. >> Compared to that 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+')' to get ^] does not seem any more >> difficult. > Except that on my AZERTY keyboard 'Ctrl'+'Alt'+')' gets me nothing at all. > > To get "]" I have to press "AltGr" + ")", which may explain why "Ctrl" + "AltGr" + ")" gives nothing. > > > Cheers, > > Ron. I guess that's another US thing, maybe other countries too. The keyboard image I found on the internet was interactive and it just happened to be the 'Alt Gr' key I was mousing over. I did learn some things. :-) Even though the right 'Alt' normally gives the same scan code as 'Alt GR' it isn't usually labeled that way so in the US we more commonly just see two different keys labeled as 'Alt'. And things normally work the same way with either one. I only found this out when I was looking for the layout for the French keyboard layout. Also there was some indication that US laptops with smaller keyboards may cheat and give the left 'Alt' scan code when you hit the 'Alt' key on the right.=-O Later, Seeker
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 23:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: How to exit /bin/sh |
| Message-ID | <q3EEG-2JS-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157254 |
Charlie Kravetz: > There has never been mention of any other method to exit this new > shell command. > Probably because the people knowledgeble in the subject thought that it went without saying. It plainly doesn't, because this is the third place where the whole it-is-the-telnet-escape-sequence thing has come up. From the machinectl manual : > This command runs the specified executable with the specified > arguments, or/bin/sh if none is specified. > It went without saying how one exits /bin/sh . (-:
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| From | Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 18:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3AhH-4P7-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157223 |
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On 08/31/2015 05:36 PM, The Wanderer wrote: > Two, I base this assessment on the things he has said and the ways in > which he has reacted when people have objected to various of the things > he has done - on his public comments and discussion, I get the opposite impression, that's why I responded they way I did to your assertion. I don't want to talk behind the back about someone without them being present, so I'll not go into further detail - but just the fact that I have a completely different impression than you do may indicate that you are indeed subconsciously not trying to assume good faith on his part. >> Sure, but I would rather come to the situation where people can air >> their honest disagreements here without resorting to name-calling, >> greatly exaggerated hyperbole and assumptions of bad faith. > > I entirely agree, but given how far apart philosophically the sides of > this disagreement are, I'm not at all sure that it's reasonable to > expect that there will not be anyone even in the lowest grades of either > side who does not go that far. The problem is not that there is every once in a while somebody who crosses the line a bit, because things got a bit emotional - the problem is that I see it far too often that systemd opponents cross that line - just take my two initial replies in this thread as an example. >> And while this has not been the worst exchange on this topic, the >> very first posting in this thread is a prime example for people >> assuming bad faith. Just look at the title of this thread and thus >> the framing of the discussion. Instead of talking about what actually >> happened (that there's a new alternative to su that fits slightly >> different use cases) the title claims that su will disappear. Note >> that _nobody_ working on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it in >> distributions, has claimed that they will stop. > > Nobody working on sysvinit claimed that they would stop doing that when > systemd came along and Lennart started claiming that it was the vastly > better approach, either, and yet sysvinit is well on the way to becoming > marginalized. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable at first glance to > expect something similar to happen again, There are two very important distinctions: 1. Most importantly, there can only be one central init system active at any given time. init systems are special in that way. This is definitely not the case with su - there are already alternatives to su installed on many systems - take sudo and pkexec. So the fact that there's now another alternative - even if it happens to be installed on every system by default - will not mean that su is going to be disappear - just because su will still work as it did before even if an alternative is present. 2. Also, very many people were yearning desperately for an alternative to sysvinit. You might not have been, other people opposed to systemd might not have been - but there's a reason why sysvinit wasn't even a strong contender in the TC decision in Debian (that was systemd vs. upstart vs. maybe openrc) - because a lot of people were actively looking for something that fixed a lot of the conceptual problems it has. You might disagree here, and I really don't want to reiterate the discussion on that specific topic - my point just is that there were a lot of people (myself included) that were really glad when systemd came along, because it really filled a need that was present in at least parts of the community. I don't see anything even remotely similar going on with su. Most people who use su are perfectly happy with it and are not looking for something new. > * There is apparently an interaction between su and the collection of > binaries which are known collectively as "systemd" which produces > undesirable results, and is at least arguably a bug. Yes, but if you look closely the problem is the following: a certain environment variable that is set by libpam-systemd upon login, namely XDG_RUNTIME_DIR, is not set when using su. If you don't use the systemd components, that environment variable isn't set at all - and from my personal experience, I have never needed the functionality for which the variable is used in shells I've opened with su. So it's not like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific new use cases don't work properly with it. If you're currently happy with su, nothing will change for you. > * Lennart refuses to change that collection of binaries in order to > prevent this interaction from causing these results, on the grounds that > A: su is ill-defined to begin with (or so he asserts), Well, kind of. The problem is that there are lots of bits an pieces that go into the concept of what a 'session' is under Linux - and su has historically altered some of those things, but kept others to be the same as the session it was called from. Since the part of the session that XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is tied to is not changed by su, the systemd developers decided to also not change XDG_RUNTIME_DIR. On the other hand, keeping the variable as-is would have security implications, so they decided to opt for the solution of simply unsetting it. Given the context, that is a perfectly sound decision in my eyes. > and B: an > alternative tool which he thinks is better is already available as part > of the collection of binaries which are known collectively as "systemd". His initial reaction was to just close the bug as wontfix - only after pressure from a user did he augment the machinectl tool (which already had similar functionality for containers) and added this functionality. So "B:" is definitely not the reason for his decision. Also, there's nobody stopping the su developers implementing a new --full-session switch or so that also creates a real separate session. > * Therefore, the only way to avoid the friction which arises from that > interaction and its undesirable results is to either not use su or not > use systemd. As I said above: if you weren't using systemd, you wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. The friction will only occur if you use software in your root shell that expects that environment variable to be there - which most commands you run as root don't do. I've never needed it as root. Christian
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