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Groups > linux.debian.user > #156977 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-08-28 17:20 +0200 |
| Last post | 2015-08-30 15:10 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 126 — 27 participants |
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Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-28 17:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. claude juif <claude.juif@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 17:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 13:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. claude juif <claude.juif@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 13:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 14:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 21:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-28 18:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 18:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Chris Bannister <cbannister@slingshot.co.nz> - 2015-08-29 01:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 12:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 15:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 15:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 16:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-08-29 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 16:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-08-29 17:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 16:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 16:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 02:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 10:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 14:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 15:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-30 14:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-30 10:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-29 15:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-08-29 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 23:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 00:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-08-30 17:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-30 17:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-08-30 20:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-30 21:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 21:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> - 2015-08-30 21:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-30 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 22:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2015-08-31 00:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 06:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 12:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 22:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 16:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 20:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. "T. J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 22:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 17:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-02 17:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-03 11:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 14:30 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 18:10 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-09-01 03:00 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 05:30 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2015-09-01 11:40 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 15:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 19:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 15:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> - 2015-09-01 15:50 +0200
Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-01 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-03 11:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-05 06:00 +0200
Re: uselessd Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-30 23:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-31 09:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 14:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-08-31 14:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 18:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-31 17:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 17:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 18:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 20:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 20:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2015-08-31 20:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 20:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 21:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-31 18:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 19:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-08-31 19:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 20:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Charlie Kravetz <cjk@teamcharliesangels.com> - 2015-08-31 21:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Erwan David <erwan@rail.eu.org> - 2015-08-31 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-09-02 10:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 12:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-09-03 07:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 08:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-03 16:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <renaud@olgiatipy.org> - 2015-09-02 12:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-09-02 12:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-09-03 17:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2015-09-03 18:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2015-09-03 19:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2015-09-03 21:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2015-09-03 21:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-09-03 22:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Seeker <seeker5528@comcast.net> - 2015-09-03 08:30 +0200
Re: How to exit /bin/sh Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 23:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2015-08-31 18:40 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-09-01 02:50 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 03:00 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-09-03 01:20 +0200
Re: "su is really a broken concept" "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 10:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 20:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2015-08-31 21:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-01 13:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 15:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-01 16:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-01 16:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-01 16:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 18:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 04:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 15:40 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 16:30 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 02:20 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-09-03 05:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2015-09-03 05:40 +0200
Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 18:30 +0200
Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 07:50 +0200
Can malware qualify as free software? Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Can malware qualify as free software? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2015-08-31 17:50 +0200
Re: Can malware qualify as free software? Reco <recoverym4n@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 18:50 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-03 10:10 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-08-29 03:00 +0200
Re: Another system management tool to disappear. Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2015-08-30 15:10 +0200
Page 6 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 Next page →
| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 02:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: "su is really a broken concept" |
| Message-ID | <q3HVT-7oG-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157235 |
Lennart Poettering
(https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622):
> Long story short: su is really a broken concept.
>
Christian Seiler:
>
> So it's not like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific
> new use cases don't work properly with it.
>
A fair number of people got their backs up for the very reason that su
was described as "broken". One could, of course ask whether in fact it
is the XDG Base Directory Specification
(http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html)
that is the broken concept, for incorporating the notion of the only way
that one reaches the point of running as any given user account being
login. ("the user being logged in ... the user first logs in ... the
user fully logs out ... the user logs in more than once ... first login
... last logout ... a full logout/login cycle") Design a mechanism that
at its foundation and throughout takes no account of adding other user
account privileges into a login session with su, or indeed that
processes wanting to create "runtime" files might be set-UID, and of
course it will conflict.
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| From | "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 03:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: "su is really a broken concept" |
| Message-ID | <q3I5z-7zX-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157267 |
On Tue, 2015-09-01 at 01:25 +0100, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > Lennart Poettering > (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622): > > > Long story short: su is really a broken concept. > > > > Christian Seiler: > > > > So it's not like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific > > new use cases don't work properly with it. > > I don't think so. It is what it is. If someone can do it better, and still keep it compatible with POSIX, more power to them. Just let the rest of us chose which we want. That is the open way. T.J.
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 01:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: "su is really a broken concept" |
| Message-ID | <q4ptT-2FO-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157269 |
T.J. Duchene: > If someone can do it better, and still keep it compatible with POSIX, > more power to them. This is not the first place where someone has randomly thrown POSIX into the discussion. "su" is outwith the scope of the POSIX standard. It's in the SVID, but to my knowledge "su" never made into POSIX. The SUS mentions it in passing under setuid() as a non-conformant application.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 10:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: "su is really a broken concept" |
| Message-ID | <q4ydQ-6Hz-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157350 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
You're probably right, Jonathan. "Su" is so common that it easy to make that error. After looking at the current POSIX list, I did not find it. Thank you for pointing that out. Be well! T.J. On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:55 PM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard < J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@ntlworld.com> wrote: > T.J. Duchene: > >> If someone can do it better, and still keep it compatible with POSIX, >> more power to them. >> > > This is not the first place where someone has randomly thrown POSIX into > the discussion. "su" is outwith the scope of the POSIX standard. It's in > the SVID, but to my knowledge "su" never made into POSIX. The SUS mentions > it in passing under setuid() as a non-conformant application. > >
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 20:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3Cjv-7HJ-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157223 |
On Mon 31 Aug 2015 at 11:36:26 -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > The Subject line is an overstatement, yes, but it's not an entirely > baseless one. Consider: The power of language! What is clearly a distortion of the situation related at https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825 becomes an "overstatement", a minor matter; nothing to worry about; the lad just got carried away and, anyway, all things in love and war etc. And because it is an "overstatement" it is accorded a status which merits serious discussion on this List instead of being dismissed for what it is. Yet more advocacy to add to the 3,200+ posts we have in -user. Only about 1.5% of them are from the OP but he is trying hard to get up to 2%. :) The fight must go on! To hell with helping users. The Subject line and the mail content are entirely baseless because they have twisted the facts to support a particular view. If the OP had wished to discuss the technical merits of the addition to systemd his mail would have looked different. Why it didn't is left as an exercise for the reader. "There must be some truth in that rumour. It cannot be baseless" is quite a common view. -- Sent from my init-agnostic account.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 21:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3CMy-8uA-17@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157251 |
On Mon 31 Aug 2015 at 19:42:18 +0100, Brian wrote: > Yet more advocacy to add to the 3,200+ posts we have in -user. Only > about 1.5% of them are from the OP but he is trying hard to get up to > 2%. :) That bit was incorrect. The 1.5% is for the OP's sycophantic responder. The OP is only on about 0.6%. But he is trying hard to catch up with the leaders. :)
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 13:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3S4V-5ix-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157223 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:36:26AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2015-08-31 at 10:49, Christian Seiler wrote: > > > On 08/31/2015 02:33 PM, The Wanderer wrote: [...] > The Subject line is an overstatement, yes, but it's not an entirely > baseless one. Consider: [...] > * Therefore, the only way to avoid the friction which arises from that > interaction and its undesirable results is to either not use su or not > use systemd. (And not using systemd is an increasingly > pushing-against-the-current proposition. It's possible, but it's > becoming less and less the default.) Just a question: have you ever considered seriously *doing* anything about that? I ask because I'd like myself and I'd like to get an idea whether there's enough community for that. No flamewars, no mud-slinging, just *doing*. regards - -- t -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlXljicACgkQBcgs9XrR2ka6RQCffTJi3fWLqk6TERMarSkVrw7O sP0An3LKx/LaaliQ9WTZA3Qfm5M4bDob =ZKiL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 15:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3TDJ-7C5-25@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157278 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
On 2015-09-01 at 07:38, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:36:26AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > >> On 2015-08-31 at 10:49, Christian Seiler wrote: >> >>> On 08/31/2015 02:33 PM, The Wanderer wrote: > > [...] > >> The Subject line is an overstatement, yes, but it's not an >> entirely baseless one. Consider: > > [...] > >> * Therefore, the only way to avoid the friction which arises from >> that interaction and its undesirable results is to either not use >> su or not use systemd. (And not using systemd is an increasingly >> pushing-against-the-current proposition. It's possible, but it's >> becoming less and less the default.) > > Just a question: have you ever considered seriously *doing* anything > about that? > > I ask because I'd like myself and I'd like to get an idea whether > there's enough community for that. No flamewars, no mud-slinging, > just *doing*. I've considered it, but - to borrow a phrase from a fragment of discussion I took part in with Russ Allbery once - I didn't, and don't, have the spare cycles to do much about it myself. I was planning to watch the various attempts at alternatives and forks which people were starting (such as uselessd, already mentioned here on the list), and investigate them more deeply once I was distanced enough from the original arguments that I had stress-level depth to spare for it. So far that hasn't happened, though, and apparently at least some of these projects have already been abandoned... -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 16:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3Ugq-8lN-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157284 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 09:16:10AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2015-09-01 at 07:38, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:36:26AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: [...] > > I ask because I'd like myself and I'd like to get an idea whether > > there's enough community for that [...] > I've considered it, but - to borrow a phrase from a fragment of > discussion I took part in with Russ Allbery once - I didn't, and don't, > have the spare cycles to do much about it myself. As long as "we" use up our spare cycles bickering, nothing will get done :-) regards - -- tomás -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlXlrv0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kY20QCdG0JqnGS7TkmaMaabsDtsASv4 rbUAn1grTLqh6ZM4X8HMLAe4NggEGqCH =ScFG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 16:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3Uq5-kF-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157287 |
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On 2015-09-01 at 09:58, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 09:16:10AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > >> On 2015-09-01 at 07:38, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > >>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:36:26AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > > [...] > >>> I ask because I'd like myself and I'd like to get an idea >>> whether there's enough community for that [...] > >> I've considered it, but - to borrow a phrase from a fragment of >> discussion I took part in with Russ Allbery once - I didn't, and >> don't, have the spare cycles to do much about it myself. > > As long as "we" use up our spare cycles bickering, nothing will get > done :-) I actually use up most of my "spare cycles" on other projects, mainly either work-related or in the service of keeping my stress levels down far enough to remain relatively sane. Of what's left, the unfortunate reality is that it takes far less to engage in a discussion like this one than it would to make any difference at all in a project of the type being suggested. Which is not to say I'd be entirely opposed to taking part in such a project, by any means - just that I wouldn't be able to commit to anything, especially not for the long term, unless and/or until I can get some of my other things out of the way. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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| From | <tomas@tuxteam.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 16:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3UzM-w6-23@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157288 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 10:07:28AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2015-09-01 at 09:58, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: [...] > > As long as "we" use up our spare cycles bickering, nothing will get > > done :-) > > I actually use up most of my "spare cycles" on other projects [...] fair enough > [...] Of what's left, the unfortunate reality is that it takes far > less to engage in a discussion like this one than it would to make > any difference at all [...] How true. > Which is not to say I'd be entirely opposed to taking part in such a > project, by any means - just that I wouldn't be able to commit to > anything, especially not for the long term, unless and/or until I can > get some of my other things out of the way. Well, who knows. If there's enough interest, things will move. I'm still figuring out where I'd fit in all of this. Regards - -- tomás -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlXlso0ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZIXACdGIr3ui9yxNpAn1gbGqMfgNYy Ap8Anjyuxmc/P1iK5FMrfjKWQ9cLX/MD =CAo6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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| From | Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-01 18:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q3Wie-31U-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157223 |
On 08/31/2015 11:36 AM, The Wanderer wrote: > One, I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or respect > in practice for" those things. How would that be different from "he does seem to prefer underage girls"? :0 Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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| From | Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 04:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q45Ye-8r6-21@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157301 |
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2015/09/02 1:04 "Ric Moore" <wayward4now@gmail.com>: > > On 08/31/2015 11:36 AM, The Wanderer wrote: > >> One, I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or respect >> in practice for" those things. > > > How would that be different from "he does seem to prefer underage girls"? :0 Ric Are you really trying to induce or project a sexual orientation slur into the conversation? ergo, that someone can use to trumpet about how his enemies lie and gossip about him? Or are you saying that if every evil is not equivalent to every other there must be no evil? Or did you have something else in mind? -- Joel Rees
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| From | Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 15:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4gqD-6uo-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157323 |
On 09/01/2015 10:27 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > 2015/09/02 1:04 "Ric Moore" <wayward4now@gmail.com > <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>>: > > > > On 08/31/2015 11:36 AM, The Wanderer wrote: > > > >> One, I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or respect > >> in practice for" those things. > > > > > > How would that be different from "he does seem to prefer underage > girls"? :0 Ric > > Are you really trying to induce or project a sexual orientation slur > into the conversation? > Just pointing out the innuendo. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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| From | Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 16:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4hcZ-7Er-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157338 |
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote: > On 09/01/2015 10:27 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> 2015/09/02 1:04 "Ric Moore" <wayward4now@gmail.com >> <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>>: >> > >> > On 08/31/2015 11:36 AM, The Wanderer wrote: >> > >> >> One, I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or >> respect >> >> in practice for" those things. >> > >> > >> > How would that be different from "he does seem to prefer underage >> girls"? :0 Ric >> >> Are you really trying to induce or project a sexual orientation slur >> into the conversation? >> > > Just pointing out the innuendo. :) Ric To which I have to say, either you're inventing an innuendo that wasn't there, or you are equating antisocial engineering conduct to an interest in unequal sexual relationships. There are parallels and analogies and metaphors, but do you really intend to invoke them? It's a two-edged sword. Without certain disclaimers, it would be you making the innuendos, any way around it. > -- > My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: > "There are two Great Sins in the world... > ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. > Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. > http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html > -- Joel Rees Be careful when you look at conspiracy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well: http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html
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| From | Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 02:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4qpY-3ZU-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157341 |
On 09/02/2015 10:27 AM, Joel Rees wrote: > On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 09/01/2015 10:27 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >>> >>> 2015/09/02 1:04 "Ric Moore" <wayward4now@gmail.com >>> <mailto:wayward4now@gmail.com>>: >>> > >>> > On 08/31/2015 11:36 AM, The Wanderer wrote: >>> > >>> >> One, I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or >>> respect >>> >> in practice for" those things. >>> > >>> > >>> > How would that be different from "he does seem to prefer underage >>> girls"? :0 Ric >>> >>> Are you really trying to induce or project a sexual orientation slur >>> into the conversation? >>> >> >> Just pointing out the innuendo. :) Ric > > To which I have to say, either you're inventing an innuendo that > wasn't there, You stated "I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or respect in practice for" those things. Since your point cannot be proven, it is innuendo. By that logic he could "seem" to be guilty of all sorts of things. I agree that Poettering, et al, have had numerous complaints against them, in the past. But even Linus has been referred to as hard to deal with. So, there is a balancing act between the pursuit of the "Right Thing(tm)" and the sensibilities of users, especially with regards to code. With regards to "su" he does seem to have a point though. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 05:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4sUO-7tv-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157351 |
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On 2015-09-02 at 20:15, Ric Moore wrote: > On 09/02/2015 10:27 AM, Joel Rees wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> Just pointing out the innuendo. :) Ric >> >> To which I have to say, either you're inventing an innuendo that >> wasn't there, I think he may have meant "insinuation", or something like that - an attempt to imply something as true without outright stating it as true. Not quite sure how to parse it out even with that in mind, but I do think I know roughly what he was getting at; I just don't think the claim deserves the dignity of a response, and I doubt that responding to it would do anything but fan flames. > You stated "I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy > or respect in practice for" those things. No, he didn't; I did. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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| From | Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-03 05:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <q4txw-8qX-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157354 |
On 09/02/2015 10:54 PM, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2015-09-02 at 20:15, Ric Moore wrote: > >> On 09/02/2015 10:27 AM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> >>> wrote: > >>>> Just pointing out the innuendo. :) Ric >>> I think you're all all wet! Innuendo is Italian for enema. --doug
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-31 18:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop. |
| Message-ID | <q3A83-4DV-33@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157222 |
Christian Seiler: > Note that _nobody_ working on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it > in distributions, has claimed that they will stop. Indeed. The implication that su is being replaced has, rather, come from the technology journalists and web log diarists writing headlines ... * Paul Carroty's piece referenced from this thread: "... 'su' command replacement ..." * Sam Varghese in ITWire: "Systemd's latest conquest: the 'su' command" and "It remains to be seen which other functions systemd will seek to take over. " in the body * Softpedia: "systemd 225 Adds 'su' Replacement" with "'machinectl shell' is the new 'su' replacement in systemd" as the subtitle * Lukáš Jelínek in LinuxExpress: "Funkcionalita příkazu 'su' začleněna do systemd" * Petr Krčmář in root.cz: "Do systemd je integrována náhrada za 'su'" * Michael Larabel in Phoronix: " The machinectl shell command is meant to replace su for running privileged sessions. " in the opening ... and in part from the systemd version 225 release notes: > Hence, 'machinectl shell' can be used as [a] replacement for 'su' > which spawns the session as a fresh systemd unit. Interestingly, neither the 7-year-old Freedesktop.org pkexec (su, but using Freedesktop.org's own PolicyKit) nor FreeBSD's "/etc/rc.d/jail console myjail1" have made such headlines. (-:
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| From | Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-02 07:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop. |
| Message-ID | <q495L-4oi-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #157234 |
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2015/09/01 1:27 "Jonathan de Boyne Pollard" < J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@ntlworld.com>: > > Christian Seiler: >> >> Note that _nobody_ working on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it in distributions, has claimed that they will stop. > > > Indeed. The implication that su is being replaced has, rather, come from the technology journalists and web log diarists writing headlines ... > > * Paul Carroty's piece referenced from this thread: "... 'su' command replacement ..." > * Sam Varghese in ITWire: "Systemd's latest conquest: the 'su' command" and "It remains to be seen which other functions systemd will seek to take over. " in the body > * Softpedia: "systemd 225 Adds 'su' Replacement" with "'machinectl shell' is the new 'su' replacement in systemd" as the subtitle > * Lukáš Jelínek in LinuxExpress: "Funkcionalita příkazu 'su' začleněna do systemd" > * Petr Krčmář in root.cz: "Do systemd je integrována náhrada za 'su'" > * Michael Larabel in Phoronix: " The machinectl shell command is meant to replace su for running privileged sessions. " in the opening > > ... and in part from the systemd version 225 release notes: > >> Hence, 'machinectl shell' can be used as [a] replacement for 'su' which spawns the session as a fresh systemd unit. > > > Interestingly, neither the 7-year-old Freedesktop.org pkexec (su, but using Freedesktop.org's own PolicyKit) nor FreeBSD's "/etc/rc.d/jail console myjail1" have made such headlines. (-: > I think it was Poettering's criticism of su that makes this more interesting to the press. Or maybe it's a slow news week. Whether they took the criticism out of context or not is another question. -- Joel Rees
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